A very worried older brother...

[Edith]

She was bullied when she was in seventh grade and she has made up with them since then. Right now she and I are both "friends" with these people who are, eh, "okay." They don't include us in a lot of group activities, so I left them while she still hangs out with them. I asked her why she bothers to waste her time with them, but she says that they're nice to her...when they actually notice when she's there.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Edith

[Leinex]

i've never been in this situation because i don't like my family, but...like okay, you can't just assume that she just jumped into this change by influence or something. i'm almost certain that when she was this positve, excited 15-year-old girl that she was repressing these feelings. i mean i feel like a lot of people gather the misconception that teenagers like to suddenly snap but no, they don't do that.

okay now because this is a maybe, you have to ask her about it. ask her when she started thinking this way, and if her response digs in to the time period where she was "happy", then yeah. she was concealing it. if anything, it's more worth worrying about someone who's concealing it than someone who's expressing it.

It's a completely different situation when your family is the problem (but of course we all know that, right?).

Anyway, I concur with Boney here. I personally repress most (if not all) of my negative feelings, and when I snap, my family loves to tell me something along the lines of "this is so sudden" and I can't stand it. Maybe she feels the same way, to a different extent.

I am a bit of an overreactor, and when she first told me that she harmed herself, it took every ounce of my being not to react. Since then I've been keeping my anxiety in check so as not to freak her out as well. I'm probably this way because my cousin committed suicide last year, without warning, yet all the signs of his depression were there and I failed to see them.

As for when she started feeling this way, she said that she started questioning whether life is worth living sometime in the middle of high school (she was a freshman at the time). She's well...very good at hiding it.

Hm, yeah. I've done some research on clinical depression and suicide before, and there are so many misconceptions that people generally miss the signs. Also, genetics seem to have something to do with depression, but that's not very clear now...

It definitely sounds like she was repressing it. I can't really tell you what to do, but I think you both need some serious stress relief.

[Edith]

It's a completely different situation when your family is the problem (but of course we all know that, right?).

Anyway, I concur with Boney here. I personally repress most (if not all) of my negative feelings, and when I snap, my family loves to tell me something along the lines of "this is so sudden" and I can't stand it. Maybe she feels the same way, to a different extent.

Hm, yeah. I've done some research on clinical depression and suicide before, and there are so many misconceptions that people generally miss the signs. Also, genetics seem to have something to do with depression, but that's not very clear now...

It definitely sounds like she was repressing it. I can't really tell you what to do, but I think you both need some serious stress relief.

Yeah I know it couldn't have been so sudden when she's been feeling that way for months. Just hearing about it for the first time (February) came as a shock. Even now she still suppresses it, but every so often she comes to me for attention, though she never talks about her problems or how she is feeling.

She used to love riding horses, but her (dumbass) instructor refused to pay her bills so the program was revoked. Now she's doing marching band, but I don't think she enjoys it as much.

[Camilla]

>Implying a good majority of therapists are crap and aren't worth it.

Everywhere one goes, if there's a service being payed for, people in that industry will try their hardest to take advantage of people and squeeze out as much money as possible. It's cruel, but it happens everywhere.

Overreaction? It's possible he's simply reacting in a way that makes her want to push him away, but in no way is he overreacting. This is his sister, his family and closest friend (according to him), threatening on multiple occasions to kill herself.

Sadly, sometimes people don't come to that until it's too late.

My main implication is that therapists are bound to fail if you force an adolescent girl into seeing one. They don't want to be there, they don't want their help, and any method/medicine the therapist tries to force onto them will just make them even more unhappy. Little do people realize that a young girl already unhappy with her life will just walk away from therapy with a response like "My life sucks even more now because I have to go through this. I can't believe my family is making me do this, they must hate me too now. Nobody understands me" if you force her into something she doesn't want to do. If she's actually willing to see the therapist and truly wants their help, then she may be able to get something out of it, but there is also still a decent chance of therapy failing (especially if their solution is to drug her up on the joke known as antidepressants). It's more than likely to be the ridiculous cycle of:

Step One: Girl is unhappy and is saying she wants to kill herself and is depressed.

Step Two: Girl goes to therapist. Therapist asks young girl to tell them how she feels and why.

Step Three: Therapist puts girl on antidepressants and/or tells her that she has to come to terms with her feelings and suggests dumb methods like listening to soothing music or screaming into a pillow to help.

Step Four: Girl might feel better for a short time, but then she doesn't anymore because antidepressants failing as they tend to do or a half-assed method not working anymore/she can't come to terms with herself.

Step Five: Rinse and repeat.

She will see his reaction as an overreaction, and that is really all that matters in this case if he really wants her to let him help. As I said in my first post, it's understandable because he cares and what she is threatening is serious, but he also has to consider her point of view if he wishes to get anywhere with her.

If you try to force her into help, try to get other people involved when she trusted you enough to come to you at all, or stress out too badly it's going to push her away. The best option is to give her the space she needs and let her know you're there if she needs someone she can trust to vent to.

Which is why I added it's okay to step in forcefully if she actually seriously starts attempting to kill herself or resorts to any bad methods of dealing with it.

If her threats become more than just the empty threats of an angry/unhappy teenager and she tries to act on them, then there isn't much of a choice left other than being forceful to prevent her from doing it. You shouldn't be forceful before that step, though, because if you are, it could actually help lead them to that step from making them even more unhappy.

[Leinex]

Yeah I know it couldn't have been so sudden when she's been feeling that way for months. Just hearing about it for the first time (February) came as a shock. Even now she still suppresses it, but every so often she comes to me for attention, though she never talks about her problems or how she is feeling.

She used to love riding horses, but her (dumbass) instructor refused to pay her bills so the program was revoked. Now she's doing marching band, but I don't think she enjoys it as much.

I don't blame you for being stunned...but you need to stay calm about it, and I see that you realize that. It's nice that your sister comes to you, even if she doesn't talk about her problems. I'd say you should just spend some quality time with her and wait until she feels comfortable enough to discuss her issues if the situation doesn't get worse before that point because that's what I would want.

That's such a shame. Maybe you should try to get some horseback riding in outside of school...? My friend rides horses and my school has no program for it.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Crizix

[Edith]

My main implication is that therapists are bound to fail if you force an adolescent girl into seeing one. They don't want to be there, they don't want their help, and any method/medicine the therapist tries to force onto them will just make them even more unhappy. Little do people realize that a young girl already unhappy with her life will just walk away from therapy with a response like "My life sucks even more now because I have to go through this. I can't believe my family is making me do this, they must hate me too now. Nobody understands me" if you force her into something she doesn't want to do. If she's actually willing to see the therapist and truly wants their help, then she may be able to get something out of it, but there is also still a decent chance of therapy failing (especially if their solution is to drug her up on the joke known as antidepressants). It's more than likely to be the ridiculous cycle of:

Step One: Girl is unhappy and is saying she wants to kill herself and is depressed.

Step Two: Girl goes to therapist. Therapist asks young girl to tell them how she feels and why.

Step Three: Therapist puts girl on antidepressants and/or tells her that she has to come to terms with her feelings and suggests dumb methods like listening to soothing music or screaming into a pillow to help.

Step Four: Girl might feel better for a short time, but then she doesn't anymore because antidepressants failing as they tend to do or a half-assed method not working anymore/she can't come to terms with herself.

Step Five: Rinse and repeat.

She will see his reaction as an overreaction, and that is really all that matters in this case if he really wants her to let him help. As I said in my first post, it's understandable because he cares and what she is threatening is serious, but he also has to consider her point of view if he wishes to get anywhere with her.

If you try to force her into help, try to get other people involved when she trusted you enough to come to you at all, or stress out too badly it's going to push her away. The best option is to give her the space she needs and let her know you're there if she needs someone she can trust to vent to.

Which is why I added it's okay to step in forcefully if she actually seriously starts attempting to kill herself or resorts to any bad methods of dealing with it.

If her threats become more than just the empty threats of an angry/unhappy teenager and she tries to act on them, then there isn't much of a choice left other than being forceful to prevent her from doing it. You shouldn't be forceful before that step, though, because if you are, it could actually help lead them to that step from making them even more unhappy.

You give great advice. I should clear up though that my parents wouldn't force her into seeing a counselor. When I first told my dad about my suicidal thoughts, he asked me if I wanted to get counselling. I told him no, and instead we just had deep conversations with each other. In the end, I did end up seeing a counselor but out of my own choice. Not sure if she would like to see one, but she does prefer it when people listen to her problems then give her advice. She's afraid of being judged though.

[Camilla]

You give great advice. I should clear up though that my parents wouldn't force her into seeing a counselor. When I first told my dad about my suicidal thoughts, he asked me if I wanted to get counselling. I told him no, and instead we just had deep conversations with each other. In the end, I did end up seeing a counselor but out of my own choice. Not sure if she would like to see one, but she does prefer it when people listen to her problems then give her advice. She's afraid of being judged though.

Well, it's good that your parents aren't the typical kind of parents that would force their children into things they don't want/feel would help. Perhaps they can be spoken to, but I will still suggest holding off on it for a while. She came to you as the person she trusts to vent to, so I think it would be a good idea to keep trying on your own for a bit more first and only bring your parents in if the problem gets any worse.

Out of personal experience, I think Crizix is giving really good advice.

Having fun with a hobby you really enjoy can work wonders when you're trying to get over your depression.

When I was coming out of my depression, my hobbies actually helped distract me and cheered me up quite a bit.

I watched a lot of anime, wrote stories, and ordered some art supplies that I drew a lot of random anime characters with.

In the end, I ended up feeling really happy when I was doing anything that had to do with my hobbies. I still felt down sometimes, but it was a major improvement.

I also suggest talking to her about your problems. If you want her to be open with you about her problems, it may make her feel more comfortable to do so if you try to talk to her about your own everyday problems. It could help build a comfort zone between you two.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Sumia

[Chiki]

It's also worth noting that some therapists even try not to help someone heal so that they'll see the therapist more, so they can make more money.

[eclipse]

ITT: Bad advice from people who had bad experiences. Remember that all medical professionals are bound by certain laws, such as keeping patient data confidential. I believe intentionally keeping your patients sick falls under the same umbrella. For reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician's_Oath

I get it, your experiences with therapists sucked and didn't work. You have my deepest apologies. However, you are NOT the girl in question. Human minds are a tricky thing. How many of you think that raising earthworms is fun? I think it's boring, but there's hobbyists out there who think otherwise. This doesn't mean that I have the right to tell everyone who's raising earthworms that it's a waste of time, and they shouldn't bother. (end rant)

Now, for your sister. If you're going to be gone a while, may I suggest leaving her the number for your local suicide prevention hotline? They should be able to talk to her, if only for a little. Next, for a very strange question: What kinds of medications is your sister taking (don't answer this here)? I do not take birth control, because I was not a good person to be around while I was on it. I'm not sure if your sister would be the same, but it's something to consider.

Edited September 15, 2013 by eclipse
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[Chiki]

ITT: Bad advice from people who had bad experiences. Remember that all medical professionals are bound by certain laws, such as keeping patient data confidential. I believe intentionally keeping your patients sick falls under the same umbrella.

A ridiculously naive view. This is so naive it just makes me shudder.

Yeah since all doctors just follow the laws without any issues, am I right? Since everyone just follows laws without any issues am I right? What a great world that would be! You think the world is just all made out of sunshines and rainbows where people just follow laws without causing any trouble. That's not the case in the real world. People steal, manipulate and con others without regard for the law all the time. Not most counselors do this, but it's definitely the case that some do.

Here's an article written by a psychotherapist:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-labier/when-psychotherapists-fai_b_773527.html

Many people who enter psychotherapy today aren't helped at all. Some end up more troubled than when they began treatment.

Yet so often practitioners don't help people very much. Some struggle for years in therapy with one practitioner after another, and never seem to make any progress. Others resolve some conflicts, but then are hit with others that hadn't been addressed.

Let's look at the scientific data.

http://nrepp.samhsa.gov/Norcross.aspx

Both qualitative and quantitative reviews of thousands of scientific studies have shown that about 75–80% of patients who enter psychotherapy show benefit

A pretty vague statement. "Showing benefit" is not the same as success rate. So while 75-80% people who enter psychotherapy show benefit, it's not clear if the benefit is significant or not. It seems like any kind of benefit is considered. Those are pretty bad statistics. It's a treatment worth trying for sure, but therapy is obviously a risky business.

Even if the benefit is significant in every single case, which it is not, there's a 1/4 chance the therapist could be a complete failure and a waste of money. Therapists are not cheap.

How does this relate to the thread? Maybe your sister could try seeing a counselor once or twice, and see if she likes it or not. But there's always a chance that it could be a failure and could make your sister even worse than she is now. Antidepressants are really awful things that should only be reserved to severe depression.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes

[eclipse]

A ridiculously naive view. This is so naive it just makes me shudder.

Yeah since all doctors just follow the laws without any issues, am I right? Since everyone just follows laws without any issues am I right? What a great world that would be! You think the world is just all made out of sunshines and rainbows where people just follow laws without causing any trouble. That's not the case in the real world. People steal, manipulate and con others without regard for the law all the time. Not most counselors do this, but it's definitely the case that some do.

Here's an article written by a psychotherapist:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-labier/when-psychotherapists-fai_b_773527.html

I could say the same of your views. You speak from personal experience, and something on a site that I despise for non-content reasons. May I remind you that it's possible to sue for medical malpractice?

I am not going to touch semantics, nor will I encourage anyone else to do so.

How does this relate to the thread? Maybe your sister could try seeing a counselor once or twice, and see if she likes it or not. But there's always a chance that it could be a failure and could make your sister even worse than she is now. Antidepressants are really awful things that should only be reserved to severe depression.

Neither of us (or anyone else on these forums) is in any position to say whether or not medication will work. At one point, my PMS gave me a non-trivial case of depression. I'm positive that what I did to "cure" that won't work for the vast majority of women who deal with that kind of depression every month. This goes to show that everyone ticks differently, and the drug that fails on one person is another person's miracle medicine. Maybe therapy/meds will work, maybe they won't, but I think outright dissuading someone from trying does more harm than good.

This is a reminder to everyone that this thread involves someone's mental well-being. Don't fuck around with that. If I think that your advice is actively harmful (like telling her to self-harm), I will warn first and ask questions later.

[Chiki]

I have no personal experience with therapists. All I know is what I learned from my psych classes and my professors.

Seriously, now you're threatening to warn people for giving out bad advice when they're trying to help others out? I know your reason "telling her to self-harm" is nonsense because no one said anything like that. We're all trying to help. What the hell is wrong with you? That's not even in the Code of Conduct. That's a ridiculous abuse of power. Seriously everyone should stay away from the threads you post in, and I will be doing that from now on. You're rude, awful to people, close threads for no reason at all and routinely abuse your power, like now. I'm going to avoid every thread you post on.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes

[eclipse]

I have no personal experience with therapists. All I know is what I learned from my psych classes and my professors.

Seriously, now you're threatening to warn people for giving out bad advice when they're trying to help others out? I know your reason "telling her to self-harm" is nonsense because no one said anything like that. We're all trying to help. What the hell is wrong with you? That's not even in the Code of Conduct. That's a ridiculous abuse of power. Seriously everyone should stay away from the threads you post in, and I will be doing that from now on. You're rude, awful to people, close threads for no reason at all and routinely abuse your power, like now.

Your knowledge is second-hand. Mine, not so much.

Do you see something in your warn history from me regarding bad advice? No? That's right, because while I disagree with your views on therapists, your overall sentiment of "give it a try first" is not harmful. Neither has anything else in this thread (so far), and I want to keep it that way.

Now, if you have an issue with power abuse, you are free to PM the administrators, and I will gladly answer for what I've done. Your issues with me have no place in this thread.

[Narga_Rocks]

I have no personal experience with therapists. All I know is what I learned from my psych classes and my professors.

Seriously, now you're threatening to warn people for giving out bad advice when they're trying to help others out? I know your reason "telling her to self-harm" is nonsense because no one said anything like that. We're all trying to help. What the hell is wrong with you? That's not even in the Code of Conduct. That's a ridiculous abuse of power. Seriously everyone should stay away from the threads you post in, and I will be doing that from now on. You're rude, awful to people, close threads for no reason at all and routinely abuse your power, like now. I'm going to avoid every thread you post on.

@italics: Good news everybody! If you want Celes to go away, just get Eclipse to post there!

@bold: But seriously, if anybody has an issue with any specific mod, PM the admins. DON'T POST IT IN THREADS. We give you a lot of leeway, Celes, with not warning you for crap we should. There might come a day it'll stop, so watch the violations of 3.2 and stuff like that.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[deleted35362]

what celes and sumia are trying to say is that mental professionals can potentially swindlers, and eclipse is trying to say that this doesn't always happen because efforts are made to try and prevent it. why is there such a big argument? there shouldn't even be a disagreement because no one is trying to say that all mental professionals are con artists.

This is a reminder to everyone that this thread involves someone's mental well-being. Don't fuck around with that. If I think that your advice is actively harmful (like telling her to self-harm), I will warn first and ask questions later.

lol

@italics: Good news everybody! If you want Celes to go away, just get Eclipse to post there!

@bold: But seriously, if anybody has an issue with any specific mod, PM the admins. DON'T POST IT IN THREADS. We give you a lot of leeway, Celes, with not warning you for crap we should. There might come a day it'll stop, so watch the violations of 3.2 and stuff like that.

you do realize that you literally just posted in here to make a joke and then repeat what eclipse said, right? try to contribute something. if celes shouldn't keep a matter in the threads, then don't do it yourself especially when eclipse has already addressed it.

[Phoenix Wright]

@italics: Good news everybody! If you want Celes to go away, just get Eclipse to post there!

There is a god.

-------------------

@OP: Sumia's advice is okay, but ultimately I'd say the only one actually equipped to handle someone with suicidal thoughts is a medical professional (ie, no one on here is one).

[Narga_Rocks]

you do realize that you literally just posted in here to make a joke and then repeat what eclipse said, right? try to contribute something. if celes shouldn't keep a matter in the threads, then don't do it yourself especially when eclipse has already addressed it.

I've always held the attitude that if people want to post stuff in thread when they shouldn't, I don't need to PM them about it. Want stuff private? Start private. I gave a public reminder not to violate certain rules, something you clearly aren't paying attention to, so, really really tempted to say enjoy your warn.

[Ansem]

Question to OP/everyone else in this thread, when you were around your sisters age, did you feel the same way? And if you have, do you still feel the same way.

The conclusion that I wish to draw is pretty obvious, but should have merit. But before I delve in, I'd like some responses.

[eclipse]

Once, I was that age. No, I didn't feel that way during that time of my life. My stupid PMS thing happened well after I was out of college.

[Phoenix Wright]

Question to OP/everyone else in this thread, when you were around your sisters age, did you feel the same way? And if you have, do you still feel the same way.

You're attributing this to a typical teenage phase, so I'll humor you: I personally never went through a Fall Out Boy/AFI/Papa Roach phase where I told my mom she just doesn't understand me and that I wear black because freedom of expression so, "Fuck you, man!"

[Leinex]

Question to OP/everyone else in this thread, when you were around your sisters age, did you feel the same way? And if you have, do you still feel the same way.

The conclusion that I wish to draw is pretty obvious, but should have merit. But before I delve in, I'd like some responses.

I'll humor you as well. Yes, and yes, if I should be completely honest here...

[Tangerine]

@italics: Good news everybody! If you want Celes to go away, just get Eclipse to post there!

This is pretty inappropriate, let's not make a habit of bullying users. An example needs to be set for it to be followed.

Anyway, this whole thread disappoints me, so I'm going to lock it. Sorry, Edith, but I really suggest you seek help somewhere actually capable of giving it, rather than on a forum where the majority post in these threads with the idea of support being secondary.

Best luck to you and your sister, I'm hopeful that things will work out.