link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Espinosa]

Yeah, calculating the modifiers for children isn't that hard at all (most of the complexity is arguably derived from the skill options and discerning what's worth using and what isn't). I guess the tables needed in the resource topic would be max stats for all classes, unit modifiers all on the same page, and maybe also averages in case that becomes a thing (I can hardly imagine it tbqh).

Agreed that Taguel is not a good class at all. At least Manakete can really tank hits (better than a General does perhaps). Still, you can't deny SMs and Assassins are really squishy in spite of their doubling capacity. They may excel against other squishy units whom they double, but I'm not sure they'd do all that well against a General or another bulky class.

One thing the dual system accomplishes is make it way more offensive, such as letting a unit attacking with a brave weapon barrage their hapless target with a crapload of powerful attacks. Sure, there's dual guard as well, but that isn't activated nearly as often because of how the formulae work. At the same time, all units have ~80 HP in the max stats metagame and quite a lot of defence at times, so having more attacks come in might be welcome for the purpose of dragging the battle down. I really do doubt that being the case however, as every unit can equip 5 skills and there's a wealth of offensive options.

Skills worth banning... Well, I'd ban the Dread Fighter/Bride classes entirely, with all their heritage (Bride's isn't so bad actually), and then there ought to be looked at first and foremost:

Galeforce - You KO something on your turn, then get to attack again. In Link Arena, we all know by now (if we haven't forgotten our intense experiences from a little over a year ago) that it's not always the case that getting a turn is a good thing - oft-times you will find yourself wishing you could skip your turn instead. A big advantage for everyone wielding bows, to be sure, as you can be more certain about not being countered.

Lifetaker - You KO something on your turn, and a half of your health returns, assuming you'd lost that much (40 HP is a big number indeed). I think Renewal would be more reliable? It's fixed 24 HP per turn, and you needn't even kill anyone for it to be in effect. Yeah, Renewal is the better skill, but beggars can't be choosers and parents' skill options are way more restricted than that of the kids.

Miracle - luck caps around at 45 or so, and that's a 45-ish percent chance of not dying to a fatal attack. Combine with Nosferatu to try to stay alive indefinitely.

Lethality - skl/4 isn't as low as you would think because brave weapons exist, and Assassins can double a lot of targets too.

Limit Breaker is bad news obviously, as is any other DLC stuff. The main thing Limit Break changes is that everyone is forced to equip it, leaving a narrower range of skills represented in the meta.

Oh right...

Counter - This seems quite gamebreaking to me, because all the damage received is sure to be substantial. You attack an enemy just to suffer more damage yourself. Really nasty, but it needs testing first.

[Elieson]

I don't see why Dread Fighter should be banned. Aggressor and Res+10 are one thing, but their class caps aren't broken. Perhaps Aggressor should just be banned since a flat +20 damage per Brave [Wpn] strike is pretty incredible

[AnonymousSpeed]

Oh, this thing is back...nice. The stat caps of Dread Fighter and Bride aren't bad, so I think they'd be fine to keep, though we should probably limit Aggressor. If it only applied to one attack maybe? Of course, that's still +10 damage every time you attack.

Galeforce is a no-no, Lifetaker would probably unbalance things a bit to much (killing a unit with someone who has life taker is a pretty big advantage, I'd imagine), and Miracle...probably, really, since you can get such a high luck cap. Lethality maybe, though without limit breaker you still only have around a 12% chance or so of it actually working. Maybe damage from Counter should be halved?

[Randa]

Counter should not be in this IMO.

[Elieson]

I'd exclude Counter (or give it FE9/10's mechanic of % activation) and modify Miracle to run at Luk/2 or something, since those numbers worked well enough in SNES's environment.

Lifetaker, Banhammer

If Renewal is allowed, maybe aggressor should be, since the two pretty much cancel each other out.

Lethality...i guess we left it out because of how available it wasn't in other games. In 13, it's too available to be ignored. Galeforce...man I wouldn't have even assumed that would be allowed since it's not really a battle skill (though Renewal isn't either so meh)

[General Horace]

just posting to say that most of the portraits in the other post are broken.

I don't have a lot to contribute to the FE13 meta, I don't think it'll be very interesting

[Espinosa]

Found this forum post on a French forum (Olivia's class is called 'Nudiste' wtf) so that's one way to get averages more quickly. One benefit of an averages meta is that skill stats will be lower and it won't be a battle of skill procs to the same extent as a max stats meta. The stats themselves seem to contradict mine a little (Lissa for example), so maybe I should do my calcs too just to double-check.

If we'd ever played Radiant Dawn LA, I'm sure we would've considered banning Volke at one point or another. We never played a single game in that meta though (same with TRS and I believe FE4 too).

I don't like the idea of modifying skill properties to make the meta more playable (though we planned something of the sort in RD for a p long time). If something's too strong, a ban is probably the way to go.

The images load just fine for me; anyone else having Horace's problem? I think you just need to wait because the resource topic has so many of them.

So, ban: Galeforce, Counter, Aggressor? Is this sufficient? Other candidates for a quickban would be Lifetaker and Renewal. Libra is unique for being the character with access to both of these.

[Espinosa]

Added a list of usable skills to the resource topic. Can anyone check it for any errors?

RobinM - Solidarity, Ignis, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defence+2, Pavise, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Miracle, Renewal

RobinF - Solidarity, Ignis, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defence+2, Pavise, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Miracle, Renewal, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+
Chrom - Dual Strike+, Charm, Aether, Rightful King, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker
Lissa - Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce
Frederick - Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defence+2, Pavise, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Sully - Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Virion - Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Stahl - Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality
Vaike - HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Sol, Axebreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven
Miriel - Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Renewal
Sumia - Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+
Kellam - Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+, Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Lethality, Lucky Seven
Donnel - Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Bowbreaker
Lon'qu - Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Ricken - Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+
Maribelle - Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Renewal, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker
Panne - Even Rhythm, Beastbane, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Gaius - Lethality, Lucky Seven, HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Sol, Axebreaker, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire
Cordelia - Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker
Gregor - Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Counter, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality
Nowi /Tiki - Od d Rhythm, Wyrmsbane, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Libra - Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Magic+2, Focus, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker
Tharja - Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker
Anna - Lethality, Lucky Seven, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker
Olivia - Luck+4, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce
Cherche - Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Renewal, Miracle, Tomefaire
Henry - Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Counter, Lethality, Lucky Seven
Say'ri - Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
Basilio - HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Sol, Axebreaker, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+
Flavia - Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+

It also appears that marking the character names in bold makes me reach some sort of HTML limit, so that's something to keep in mind if I keep on updating the topic with more information.

You know what... I think the best way to understand what works and what doesn't in this metagame is to just dive deep into it with a test battle. I volunteer to host and propose the following ruleset (some of the things in it are admittedly broken, but we have to know how problematic they are before we proceed any further):

- Maximum stats

- Robin fully customisable (give him/her a name if you please)

- Parent units only

- No supports, dual features or pair up

- Forging allowed (only forgeable items obviously), always +5 mt, +25 hit, +0 crt (we can try +15 crit if you like).

- Galeforce/Counter/Lifetaker/Renewal all allowed

- Bride/Dread Fighter classes allowed while the Aggressor skill is out (pretty sure we don't want this one around in any way or shape at all, due to its widespread availability), as are the DLC skills like Limit Breaker or Iote's Shield

- All weapons allowed (the +5 spd ones probably aren't a big deal considering that they have 0 value and thus cannot be forged)

- As usual, keep it within the options available within one game file

Also, the two players who agree to play out the match will be drafting their 5 units by taking turns in a PM convo with me (order is 1-2-1-2...).

[Elieson]

I agree on the supports thing, mainly because they're horrible to accommodate for and make things incredibly unfair for the first person to lose a unit.

Galeforce allowed? No. No.

If Counter is allowed, then ok. Promotes integration of Bows at least.

Also @Espi your spoiler list is horrendous and had a couple of spacing issues. Mine isn't much better but eh too bad I changed it a bit.

You're allowing Lethality?

Last Question: without Supports, How do we handle Tantivy and Relief, in conjunction with Charm and Demosielle?

I'll also take you on.

---RobinM
Solidarity, Ignis, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defence+2, Pavise, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Miracle, Renewal

---RobinF
Solidarity, Ignis, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defence+2, Pavise, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Miracle, Renewal, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+

---Chrom
Dual Strike+, Charm, Aether, Rightful King, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker

---Lissa
Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce

---Frederick
Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defence+2, Pavise, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

---Sully
Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker
---Virion
Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

---Stahl	
Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality

---Vaike
HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Sol, Axebreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven

---Miriel
Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Renewal

---Sumia
Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+

---Kellam
Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+, Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Lethality, Lucky Seven

---Donnel	
Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Bowbreaker

---Lon'qu	
Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

---Ricken
Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Aegis, Luna, Dual Guard+

---Maribelle
Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Renewal, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker

---Panne	
Even Rhythm, Beastbane, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

---Gaius
Lethality, Lucky Seven, HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Sol, Axebreaker, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire

---Cordelia
Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker

---Gregor
Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Counter, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality

---Nowi/Tiki
Odd Rhythm, Wyrmsbane, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

---Libra
Miracle, Renewal, Tomefaire, Magic+2, Focus, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker

---Tharja
Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker

---Anna
Lethality, Lucky Seven, Skill+2, Prescience, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, Bowbreaker, Magic+2, Focus, Tomefaire, Slow Burn, Lifetaker

---Olivia
Luck+4, Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce
---Cherche
Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker, Resistance+, Demoiselle, Dual Support+, Renewal, Miracle, Tomefaire

---Henry
Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Slow Burn, Lifetaker, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Counter, Lethality, Lucky Seven

---Say'ri
Avoid+10, Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, Lethality, Speed+2, Relief, Lancefaire, Galeforce, Strength+2, Tantivy, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

---Basilio
HP+5, Zeal, Counter, Gamble, Wrath, Axefaire, Sol, Axebreaker, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+

---Flavia
Patience, Sol, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Lethality, Lucky Seven, Defence+2, Pavise, Luna, Dual Guard+

Edited May 29, 2015 by Elieson

[Espinosa]

I do think Galeforce is a less broken skill than Counter actually. Let's play this game and determine just what consequences these two (and other skills) can lead to. Lethality is allowed.

What space issues are you referring to? I originally typed up the whole thing in Notepad (which sometimes divided text into lines where you didn't intend to when you switch between full screen and minimized modes, but I'm looking at the topic on this widescreen monitor (which I've borrowed until the one I ordered online from Germany arrives) and I don't see any glaring problems.

Yeah, three skills I'm not really sure about are Relief, Tantivy and Anathema. Actually, Relief and Tantivy should work in a very specific way - they are active when the units' allies have all been knocked out and not functional otherwise. With Anathema, I'm really not sure how the "...to all enemies within a 3 tile radius" part ought to extrapolate to a Link Arena setting. We could just not use this skill at all, because enemies aren't assumed to be anywhere in the other team's range at all. Or we could make it work for any enemy fighting the user of Anathema, whether at 1, 2 or 3 (Longbow) range.

Oh, and I'll gladly take you on myself, but then we're going to need somebody else to host. Horace? PKL? Anyone else with the time and volition to do this? We need somebody who remembers how to host games, I guess.

[Elieson]

Yeah, three skills I'm not really sure about are Relief, Tantivy and Anathema. Actually, Relief and Tantivy should work in a very specific way - they are active when the units' allies have all been knocked out and not functional otherwise. With Anathema, I'm really not sure how the "...to all enemies within a 3 tile radius" part ought to extrapolate to a Link Arena setting. We could just not use this skill at all, because enemies aren't assumed to be anywhere in the other team's range at all. Or we could make it work for any enemy fighting the user of Anathema, whether at 1, 2 or 3 (Longbow) range.

In the "Link Arena" setting, for supports to be active (leadership stars, etc), you need to be within a certain range of X unit. I'd assume that Relief and Tantivy would not function unless you're the last unit standing. I'd assume Anathema functions only if you're engaging in battle, and doesn't work while in Queue.

I do think Galeforce is a less broken skill than Counter actually. Let's play this game and determine just what consequences these two (and other skills) can lead to. Lethality is allowed.

An extra turn to attach with overforged Brave weapons is brutal. Granted, currently only 5 units can run it, it's still a pretty hefty thing to offer since you could look at a string of team weakening, then suddenly a two-three turn team wipe.

What space issues are you referring to? I originally typed up the whole thing in Notepad (which sometimes divided text into lines where you didn't intend to when you switch between full screen and minimized modes, but I'm looking at the topic on this widescreen monitor (which I've borrowed until the one I ordered online from Germany arrives) and I don't see any glaring problems.

You had like, "Nowi /Tiki" and "Od d Rhythm" Simple stuff yo

Oh, and I'll gladly take you on myself, but then we're going to need somebody else to host. Horace? PKL? Anyone else with the time and volition to do this? We need somebody who remembers how to host games, I guess.

if AnonSpeed wants in, then we can roll RNG to see what happens or something?

[PKL]

I can't host anymore. Especially not for a game with so many things to remember per turn like FE13.

[Espinosa]

We'll have to test how exactly Anathema works in-game if we're not sure then.

And if it's simple things like that, could you point them out? I might adapt your format instead with unit names on its own line though; it's probably more readable since I can't bold stuff.

And yeah, braves ARE pretty OP, especially when you see how they barely have a Mt disadvantage against other higher-end weaponry.

I can't host anymore. Especially not for a game with so many things to remember per turn like FE13.

Would you be up to take on Elieson if I were hosting? I'll get a chance to accept his challenge later on hopefully.

[Espinosa]

Updated the resource thread with parents' averages, for whenever we decide to play an averages game, with stat boosters or otherwise. There's really no reason to not try it whenever.

One feature the averages meta has is that the stats are a good deal lower, with nobody besides Donnel really capping any of the stats, even the guys with really high growths, and characters actually have their in-game traits and weaknesses, like Stahl being very different from Sully in several stats (though in the max stats meta, their class sets make them pretty different, I should think), Henry being slow and Tharja having poor skill/luck. The only problem is how limited the class choices are (1 or 2 per character), and that skills are generally limited to only a couple of characters due to no reclassing. I'm ready to host an averages game whenever we're ready and feel like doing it.

Also still looking for a partner for Elieson in a maximum stats game, or perhaps a host to permit Elieson to take me on. For playing (not sure about the hosting), anyone interested is welcome, whether experienced in our LA simulation from a year back or only now looking into this. We need to carry out some preliminary testing, and tbqh I'm really dying to host/play some LA games myself.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Espinosa

[Elieson]

I dont mind hosting if someone else wants in for a match, fwiw

[General Horace]

i could host if you give me until thursday, on holidays

cleared my cache and the portraits are fine now, just some rogue COOKIES I guess.

Edited May 31, 2015 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

sweet Horace

So I guess we could start drafting our units then, Elie? So that we're ready by the time Horace is. Maximum stats; anything goes (lol), right? I propose that Robin can be drafted customised in whatever way, but one player picks the male one while the other female (can't have two in the same team obviously).

[Elieson]

[outrealms]

But yea sound OK.

Kids?

[Espinosa]

No kids to keep things relatively simple for now. Supports mean nothing, though I do think it might be a good idea to introduce the hit/avo/crit/cev ones, since that gives Valkyrie's skill some value (good thing?). Also judging from previous experience in other games' metas, strategising around supports being broken is a pretty fun approach to the Link Arena.

Okay, threesome PM here we go~

[Espinosa]

Anyone else think brave weapons (of all sorts) should be banned from being forged? Their high Might makes other weapons completely unwelcome in the metagame.

Compare:

Brave Sword+ 14x2 mt, 105 hit vs. Alm's Blade+ 20 mt, 100 hit

Brave Lance+ 15x2 mt, 95 hit vs. Sigurd's Lance+ 19 mt, 110 hit vs. Gradivus 19 mt, 85 hit (1-2 range) vs. Gungnir 16+5 mt, 70 hit

Brave Axe+ 17x2 mt, 85 hit vs. Helswath 18 mt, 60 hit (1-2 range) vs. Hector's Axe+ 20+2 mt, 100 hit

Brave Bow+ 15x2 mt, 95 hit vs. Innes' Bow+ 18 mt, 140 hit

Waste+ 15x2 mt, 70 hit vs. Aversa's Night 20 mt, 100 hit (drains HP)

Celica's Gale 9x2 mt, 105 hit vs. Thoron+ 19 mt, 90 hit

Some of the non-braves may have some situational value, but swinging a weapon a second time doubles your chances of proccing a skill, which is a big deal with FE13 Skill stat caps and a max of 5 skills per unit.

They still have a huge utility with the nerf, but the reduced hit also lets them whiff more regularly against their respective -breaker counters, for instance.

[Elieson]

Sry for the wait espi I've been busy dealing with IRL problems but I'll have picks in a bit

[Elieson]

Also I'd say if anything, just allow DSu+ since srsly all other supports just cancel eachother out

[Espinosa]

Not all characters have supports with each other though. Some really good parents are sorta lacklustre in this regard.

Oh, and has anyone taken a look at stat caps for unpromoted classes? Barely anyone doubles anyone else in that meta (prior to modifiers and whatnot). It actually looks pretty playable, though most units there only have access to one weapon type so it'll get pretty predictable fast. Too bad promoted class caps are so different.

[Elieson]

I'll just run Manaketes on your ass :P

[Espinosa]

Manaketes don't count as unpromoted though. They heavily outstat everyone otherwise.