link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Icon of Sin]

Sol is obtainable only through drops. Unless one steals Barbarossa's with Yuni and she somehow survives.

Sol and Luna can proc on any weapon except Hel i think. Eyrios procs Sol naturally with magic, while I've given Sol to Dagda last time as well.

[Espinosa]

Crap, I did mean the Luna Sword. The existence of rare drops is actually another concern in running TRS - how many of each viable weapon are made available?

And thanks for the info on FE5 skills; going to return to my team building with this new knowledge.

[Icon of Sin]

It's easily possible to never get any drops in this game. I know my first time which ended up with a good amount of grinding for examination puposes ended up with no drops, though I arguably grinded on Mummies only.

[dondon151]

i think that most of the really good weapons are not available through drops, anyway. and some of the dropped weapons aren't so good because they weigh a lot.

EDIT: one of my FE5 videos has galzus using luna with an axe equipped.

rukuud should probably be banned in TRS too, because attacking a unit without a goddess shield is mostly a matter of luck.

Edited February 2, 2014 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

So yeah, it's pretty clear that assignable Resolve really does make an enormous difference as to how you build your team and go about fighting.

Tauroneo brings an innate Resolve so it looks like a team built around him (with Rolf, Largo, possibly Mia) might be one of the good ways to go about building a team. I'm glad we had the Ike x Oscar support banned for a while, because this shed some light about what can be effective outside of Ike-Oscar-Kieran teams. I'm not sure if this means the support should be unbanned though, as it just sounds like there'll be IkexOscar teams with an increased rate of Tauroneo appearance in them.

Nasir's already proved to be quite uber and needs a nerf, together with Ena - I'm thinking simply of putting them together with royals and not allowing them to use boosters or custom skills. They should disappear for good this way but what can you do? Alternatively, limiting boosters to no more than 2 per stat could be another solution - as 29/30 AS Ena/Nasir aren't nearly as bad as 31-34 AS ones - but they can still get ridiculous bulk and if you stack all robes on them they can recover 8 HP per round (just Ena that is, what with all skills banned). Nasir's definitely too strong as a user of Nihil and allows two nihilists on the same team.

Meanwhile, the HP draining folks haven't impressed me at all yet (Refa's Mist did do a great job though, for a while), though maybe we haven't seen them properly applied just yet. Talking about Elincia and Mist mainly here.

Overall, the bans, whether they are here to stay, have proved to be really invaluable.

[Espinosa]

So I've been testing Resolve with Tauroneo in-game and I notice several things we've been doing right with it and some we've been doing wrong:

1) If the Resolve user gets into Resolve range by being countered, and has enough AS with the Resolve bonus to double the enemy he targeted, the round of combat will be over and no doubling will occur.

2) If the Resolve user attacks somebody who he's doubled by normally (and neither doubles nor is doubled by in Resolve range), and the first hit of the enemy sends the Resolver into Resolve range, the enemy will attack the second time too.

I think some more testing could be done to make Resolve mechanics 100% clear in application for our simulation and I'm trying to think what other situations should be investigated.

This means, among other things, that Resolve Generals are doubled by speedy sieger Sages even in the scenario of an Adept/Flare proc on the first hit sending them below 50% HP (quite a big deal considering how scary Resolve Tauroneo has been in the last few games, and the potential Brom and Gatrie could similarly reach with their defensive and offensive stats).

Basically the current question is whether the round of combat needs to be over for Resolve to activate afterwards. Probably going to test enemy phase Resolve activations next and see if any of the insight is valuable.

[dondon151]

my hypothesis is that double-attacking is checked for at the beginning of the round of combat and is not checked for again as a result of AS changes mid-combat.

just to be clear, does the game give the cue for resolve activation in these tests? if it does not give the cue for resolve activation, then we can be rather confident that other combat parameters like avo and hit (though only avo matters) are not modified mid-battle by resolve.

Edited February 3, 2014 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

my hypothesis is that double-attacking is checked for at the beginning of the round of combat and is not checked for again as a result of AS changes mid-combat.

just to be clear, does the game give the cue for resolve activation in these tests?

It could be as you say; Resolve's effects on skill/speed could still kick in after the first hit (in the second situation), but I'm thinking that Resolve simply doesn't activate until you're ready to attack yourself.

The cue for Resolve going off is the unit glowing red. It only occurs when the unit is about to attack (whether or not the attack connects; usually it does thanks to the skill boost though). I believe in RD Resolve is shown in the upper-right corner when defending as well, in contrast to PoR.

[Espinosa]

Okay, the enemy phase Resolve mechanics are just as I thought I remembered them - you get whacked into Resolve range and you activate it during your counterattack, doubling when applicable.

This makes running Vantage a very bad idea considering this is your only way of "choosing to activate Resolve" (unless you're already doubling anyway) as opposed to waiting for the opponent to do you a favour, and Naesala, Mia and others want this skill deleted ASAP.

[dondon151]

vantage already helps activate wrath in FE9, too, though that's not nearly as bad as activating wrath in FE5.

Edited February 3, 2014 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

vantage already helps activate wrath in FE9, too, though that's not nearly as bad as activating wrath in FE5.

Wrath's a good skill no doubt, but not nearly as good and important in the metagame as Resolve. It also seems like Resolve/Nihil on foot units/Mist is the way to go over Resolve/Wrath combos (as Wrath is often superfluous on these), though Wrath allows foot units to also run Miracle for additional chances of survival, or Shade/Provoke to influence certain actions early on.

Vantage + Resolve/Wrath is another solid combo that's somewhat unreliable due to Nihil and Parity existing.

[Espinosa]

So I put up a new poll to collect opinions about possible changes to Laguz limitations in the custom averages metagame. It mainly concerns the Laguz, but I put up a poll regarding Ikey just to find out what everybody thinks of him now.

What my recentest match has probably already shown beyond any doubt is that Nasir with a massive skill stack (and 40 SP allowing him to stack some good skills besides Nihil - mine simply runs Shade and Renewal, former letting him survive with good health pre-transformation, which takes a little longer than most Laguz, and Renewal letting him restore 6 HP per round, which is good even when Nasir is ignored). The ability to stack lots of boosters, namely, allows Nasir to reach anywhere up to 34 transformed AS, doubling even Swordmasters. Unlike Naesala however, he can be way bulkier by taking Dracos to sustain very little damage and Nihil ensures skills will not make Nasir fall when stats are failing to do the job.

The above might be obvious but I'm outlining everything just so that everyone can follow in spite of missing any part of our recent progress. Everything applicable to Nasir applies to Ena as well - Ena is essentially a healthier, more accurate Nasir without Nihil (so you can't have two nihilists in one team, and Nihil is probably the 2nd most valuable skill after Resolve) and 2 less atk (as well as one less AS).

I put up the poll recently and besides completely banning boosters on dragons (which will indeed render them once again unusable), we could simply restrict their customisation with boosters not unlike the FE5 game I'm having with Nicolas - let's say... 4 boosters per dragon MAX, regardless of which stat they boost. What could possibly happen here?

Unit     HP  Str  Mag  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res  acc  avo  crt  sk%  Atk  Hit
Nasir    60   31   11   30   26   19   31   33   79   71   15   -    41  154

This is base transformed Nasir. He's got 23 AS untransformed, so he needs two Speedwings just to avoid getting doubled by Giffca (who just might get a turn in before Nasir reaches 20/20 which, without interference, will happen on his player's 3rd turn). This gives him 30 AS, not doubling many units of note besides Generals and Neph, and he still has 2 more boosters to use. He could invest into strength (the biggest candidate for an Energy Drop appears to be Rolf), getting 45 atk, which is still lower than Tibarn, or defence to become as sturdy as a VK+KW Gatrie/Brom. He could also keep going for more speed, becoming mostly an inferior Naesala with Nihil.

He'll still have his Laguz gauge problems (no access to Laguz Band and loses stats p drastically with the Demi Band), hit rate issues and stuff.

Point is, Nasir/Ena could be nerfed and still maintain an interesting niche that could let them end up on a team and perform a function (such as Resolve-neutralising nihilist).

Post about dudes like Ranulf should follow soon; feel free to interrupt.

[Espinosa]

So, for the second poll question - assume Wrath/Resolve is unbanned for lesser Laguz dudes (not royals or dragons).

Their advantage over Royals remains the ability to apply skills, but Lethe and Janaff still generally fall short of matching the royals, though they could perform interesting support functions, such as Janaff giving Shinon (whom we haven't seen for a long while together with Gatrie) +3 defence while still tanking with Cancel procs (which are less effective with Nihil and Parity around).

The best non-royal/dragon is probably Ranulf. Surprisingly good bulk (61 HP / 26 def / 12 res), AS of 28 with potential to turn it into 32 or 34 while keeping another Speedwings or two for the teammates. His attack is middling however, with 39 transformed atk, which can become 43 if we're feeling generous with the drops. His gauge starts at 10, so with Shade he can feasibly transform for player's second (or even first) turn. Imagine the following buffed up Ranulf with boosters:

Unit     HP  Str  Mag  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res  acc  avo  crt  sk%  Atk  Hit
Ranulf   61   31    4   28   26   17   26   12   73   69   14   -    39  163
becomes
Ranulf   68   35    4   28   32   17   28   12   73   77   14   -    43  163

32 AS lets him double Ike and the numerous 27 AS units, giving him a similar niche to a certain raven:

Unit     HP  Str  Mag  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res  acc  avo  crt  sk%  Atk  Hit
Naesala  62   33   18   33   36   20   26   20   86   92   16   -    41  181

Very similar bulk, poorer hit and avo, no gauge problems because of the Laguz band (but Ranulf lacks an arrow weakness upon transformation).

Ranulf can support Ike to match and slightly beat Naesala in avoid, still remaining vulnerable to silver forges, but is he still wanted? Possibly only if he can take Resolve/Wrath.

Here's the comparison between Resolve Ranulf (boosters shown in the first code) and Resolve Ike with a Silver Sword/Ragnell:

Ranulf

48 AS

60 atk

Ike

42 AS

57 atk

Hell, let's throw in Silver Axe Resolve Boyd for another point of reference (+3 AS):

Boyd

40 AS

66 atk

60 atk is the highest Ranulf can get, and that's a lot, but as we can see, nothing unusual for Resolve users (besides Runesword users who compensate for the lack of power by doubling and targeting res). He can also fail to seriously damage something because of Laguzguards existing (and those can be on any Beorc), failing to cause enough damage before he's finished off once in Resolve range.

So is there any point in using Resolve Laguz? Yeah, it's the extra bulk, namely Ranulf's - with 70 HP (capped; two robes OR 68 HP with one) and 30 fully transformed defence after 2 Dracos, Ranulf can have pretty good bulk after getting into Resolve range and last a round longer than, say, Resolve Boyd or Resolve Largo.

I really doubt anything can be broken here considering the existence of Nihil and Parity scrolls, plus Ranulf's needing the Demi Band to stay transformed, switching to which from the Full Guard makes him lose 3 atk, 1 AS, 2 def (stops doubling Ike with 2 Speedwings). As a 25 SP unit he could try running Resolve/Nihil or go for Resolve/Wrath/Miracle or Shade or some Resolveless combination with Wrath, which can preserve Resolve for another character while putting Wrath into good use in the hands (paws?) of a character who doubles everybody besides Naesala).

[Elieson]

Laguzguards exist on teams pretty often, making Resolve Ranulf that less desirable.

His AS is huge, but why are we dumping so much into Ranulf again instead of balancing a team? He suffers hard to N/P users, and can be replaced by Naesala, who rocks hard with innate Vantage, or Nasir, who is horrifying and half-built over Ranulf. Ranulf doesn't need a Full Guard as badly, sure, but he stil requires a tremendous allocation of such limited boosters, for what's essentially a Royal that can skillplay Resolve, something that other units work better with.

Resolve helps:

Generals not get doubled

Ike roll Aether, or anyone elst with procs

Pump up anything with 25+ speed to maximum doubling speeds

In Ranulf's case, he operates on a similar basis, only needing that tasty skill boost only that much more because of his passable accuracy.

Plus, Gauge antics can be played by opponents, who may want to run Flame Lances to fight )

Falling asleep...more later

[Espinosa]

Laguzguards are a two-edged blade. If you say "Laguz are no longer as good with custom skills around", you remove royals and add more Beorc units. A team of 5 Beorc still has only two Laguzguards to share, and it doesn't take too much effort to find out where those hide. So forgetting about Laguz only makes you more vulnerable to them.

That said, Mordecai with 2 Energy Drops matches Boyd's and Largo's atk in Resolve mode (66 atk). He can't attack with brave weapons though, so he's at a disadvantage.

The best use out of Resolve is definitely the boosts to str and skill. You kinda need sufficient spd to survive to be in Resolve mode and dish out powered up hits in the first place, and you probably don't want to take a counter while doing it, so speed isn't such a huge concern (but the extra avoid can help shut down an attempt to kill the Resolver).

Brave weapons strike really accurately with 24-30 extra hit and can 2HKO lots of folks with that strength boost (+15 on Boyd and Largo, and close enough for folks like Brom and Gatrie). Resolve Boyd has 55x2 atk with Brave Axe/Bow, which is 2 HP short of 2HKOing a healthy Vague Katti Ike and deals 23x2 dmg (46/52 HP) to Ragnell!Ike.

Resolve costs 10 SP, so you can't run it together with Aether, but it can power up Adept (checked once before a brave attack). Not sure if that's a good idea when Nihil (for foot units) and Wrath(+Miracle) exist.

Ranulf does want the Full Guard because he loses stats from running Demi. I definitely wouldn't consider giving a Flame Lance to anybody (maybe on some gimmicky Tanith equip set?), but laguzslaying equips are a good option and help take care of Giffca and Nasir/Ena when those unequip the Full Guard to keep their transformation.

Oh, and if I were to use Naesala, I'd probably remove Vantage. Resolve units can force Naesala to get them into Resolve range this way and with favourable vitality left to take another round of combat afterwards. Mia has the same problem, it seems.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Espinosa

[AnonymousSpeed]

I think we should allow wrath/resolve on regular Laguz, give them some use.

I don't know what to do with Nasir. I'm surprised he's not more popular, he's near unkillable.

For royals, no new skills, yeah, but I think we can allow giving them a few boosters, if just a speed wing.

[Espinosa]

Nasir loses 5 atk, 1 AS, 2 def when switching to the Demi Band... I think with a 4 boosters per dragon rule, Nasir/Ena aren't breaking anything ever while having an interesting niche and some room for customisation (HP vs atk vs speed vs defence, all of these functioning pretty differently with different skill builds and teams built for them to fill in a role).

Nasir/Ena are never getting Resolve/Wrath, though, that would be too much. They can stack any other skills they like on that 40 SP however. Renewal and Nihil is already 30 SP, and leaves no more space for Boon.

[Refa]

Hey, me and Dio are doing an FE6 Max Stats match, anyone want to host? Oh, OK then...I'll just be going...

[Icon of Sin]

My team's ready for the awesome third volume of the Refa vs. Dio trilogy.

[Espinosa]

Put up a section at the top of the first post with "announcements" (people looking for a partner / host / players / etc.).

Actually what the hell, send me your teams. That's one metagame I haven't hosted anything for yet (which is a bit unusual for me) and you two seem to be online at the same time as me a lot more often than dudes like Anon, so the game could run faster. I hope your teams are packing some accurate and crit-happy folks because this metagame is apparently really slow.

[General Horace]

I suppose I could host Refa/Dio for FE6.

[Nicolas]

Here is mine FE8 Tier List (for average stats meta)

Top:

Kyle

Gerik (best stats in game)

Forde

Franz

Erika

Tana

Vanessa

Cormag

Ephraim

High:

Moulder

Neimi

Seth

Joshua

Amelia

Colm

Mid;

Gilliam

Marisa

Sahel

Innes

Don't brother tier:

Everybody else.

[Espinosa]

I suppose I could host Refa/Dio for FE6.

Would you mind co-hosting with Elieson the FE5 match between me and Ice Sage instead? That one's been stalled for a while.

[General Horace]

i could probably do both to be honest.

[Espinosa]

i could probably do both to be honest.

Well, I've got both Dio's and Refa's teams in PM, but I could send those to you as well; should be really fun with your commentary.

I could work more on the tier list instead in the meantime.