link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Elieson]

Sure. Standard ruleset ok wif u?

[General Horace]

Good by me.

[Espinosa]

BTW Horace

You said you noticed something hilariously broken when hosting me vs. Elieson (the first Awakening game) that we supposedly failed to take note of and exploit. What was it exactly?

[General Horace]

I don't think it was as broken as I'd thought it'd be, just a robin with a bunch of breakers and lucky seven or something faces very low hit from everything. Can be countered with breakers of your own though.

[Espinosa]

Ah, that.

One thing about the application of -breaker skills is that a ~50 hit attack can't necessarily be expected to always miss. This is why Dread Fighter's Resistance+10 may be a more effective way to tank tome users, though still likely insufficient if it's a General trying to withstand a Sorc's assault.

[AnonymousSpeed]

i'm down to play or host

uh, vs anon or Elie really. I'm cool with whatever.

Hooray!

I'll play any meta; if Anon needs a buddy i'll dive in, but I won't play him in anything pre-6

Hooray again! I'm not quite sure if I want to play 6, 8, or 9, but whatever it is it will definitely not be pre-6. I was thinking 9, but now that I mentioned it 8 would be fun...

And Anon (and anyone else) should decide what they want to play from the old metagames, and I could host that too.

I think 8, averages.

[Espinosa]

Just got Horace's team. I really need to finish developing that sheet in Excel to check children's stats/skills more quickly (and the plan is that it would help players choose their teams, too)...

[Elieson]

Dangit espi its like you and I are in a race to build sheets.

Mine calcs out all kid stats, if you want it (pick the unit, pick the parent, pick the Asset/Flaw if Robin is involved, and pick the class, and your stats are all calced out. I based it on your fe10 sheet, just expanded because of skill variance and all that

Edited July 1, 2015 by Elieson

[Espinosa]

I still have it somewhere, unless you updated it. Maybe I'll be able to figure out how it works for that function this time around.

What I was thinking about was an Excel sheet showing which viable skills each kid can learn, e.g.

Inigo (Vaike) x x x - * - x

Where, for example, x - available skill, - unavailable skill, x - needs to be the one skill that's derived from a parent whose relevant class the child doesn't share. I believe there were a ton of skills; what we want is a sheet that lists them with breaker skills all together, hit/avo-affecting skills all together and maybe also the stat mods right next to the given build. I'm really not sure how to embed it on the forums, but at least one can link to a download of the Excel sheet. I suppose I could also Print Screen parts of the thing and feature them in the LA thread. There's always a way out.

[General Horace]

there's already this page for that, kind of, its just missing the dlc skills.

http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/children/

[Espinosa]

Good point, but it's hard to navigate and has too many LA-incompatible skills to scan through.

[Elieson]

Horace has a point.

Anyway, i've updated it as far as data and made the interface a bit to make it easier on the eyes.

My sheet posted up on SF, as of this minute basically works as

Pick your Unit and parent. If unit=kid, all skills avaibale to that kid are selectable via the 5 dropdowns menus for each skillslot.

How it'll work in like 1 day:

Pick your Unit. Pick your Parent. The dropdowns for the 5skills are populated based on what you picked. I haven't uploaded it since I'm still doing a bit of cleanup work on how duplicates are handled.

[Espinosa]

Yeah, I got that, and it'll definitely be useful if you can improve its readability (though it must've been only a problem on my end).

My resource will look differently though - it'll be a huge of all kid variations (minus MU ones - this is where your advanced technology will help out) and you'll basically be able to scroll up and down looking for the right arrangement of skills you can find. I might be able to show a preview of it tomorrow.

[Espinosa]

FE Fates Personal Skill TheoryFE Tier List I just cooked up out ot boredom:

Top

Flora

High

Rinkah

Matoi

Elise

Effie

Camilla

Charlotte

Leo

Xander

Mid

Azura

Ashura

Oboro

Yuugiri

Kanna

Sophie

Midoriko

Nyx

Belka

Pieri

Ignis

Low

Asama

Kagerou - maybe higher if kunai users get really viable (which they might)

Crimson

Yukimura

Arthur

Odin

Benoit

Velour

Lutz

??? - we don't know if these should even work in LA context

Izana

Sakura

Hana

Kinu

N/A - no effect

Everyone else

Females have the best skills lmao (Top/High tiers are just girls + 2 Nohr royals), so Charlotte can be expected to be pretty swell.

I think for LA the balance is a little unfair to some units because the main game makes attack/guard stances important and the skills emphasise that, but I guess it's always been like that with mounted and flying units not having the utility that they have in the games because of their mobility, or staffbots not having any part of their utility transferred to LA.

Personal skills probably won't be TOO centralising considering how class skills seem a level more important and you get as many as five of these, but characters with usable personal skills still have something extra going for them, be it extra damage, recovery or team support.

Even then, every team might be tempted to use Flora and she's likely to be the first unit to get a ban.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Espinosa

[AnonymousSpeed]

I think 8, averages.

In hindsight, I think I'd actually like to do FE9 instead. Maxes or averages is up to my opponent, be they whoever.

[Elieson]

@esp

Ike is centralized on fe9 and we don't ban him, we just ban the support (and ragnell)

[Quintessence]

Hey guys what do you think about an alternate meta? I've been thinking on a meta with realistic level ups instead of using averages or max stats; like simulating units' level ups from base up to MAX LV., and give the players the option to manage statboosters as of the resulting stats. This may work better with games such as 7 and 9.

Thoughts?

[Baldrick]

I wouldn't play it, it doesn't add that much to unit selection strategy and it's another element of luck.

[Elieson]

Hey guys what do you think about an alternate meta? I've been thinking on a meta with realistic level ups instead of using averages or max stats; like simulating units' level ups from base up to MAX LV., and give the players the option to manage statboosters as of the resulting stats. This may work better with games such as 7 and 9.

Thoughts?

Too unpredictable, and can lead to too easily sandbagged teams vs potentially hardcore teams

[Espinosa]

So we have these Awakening averages for a no reclass meta over here (copied from resource thread):

Chrom (Great Lord)       57   34    5   33   33   32   27   14
Avatar (Grandmaster)     53   30   27   26   27   25   23   17
Frederick (Great Knight) 49   25    4   22   20   14   24    8
Lissa (Sage)             48   12   29   25   27   33   14   21
Lissa (War Cleric)       54   18   26   22   25   33   17   22
Sully (Paladin)          58   30    9   32   32   28   27   18
Sully (Great Knight)     60   33    8   30   28   28   32   12
Virion (Sniper)          53   28   12   39   30   22   25   15
Virion (Bow Knight)      58   30   11   36   32   22   19   14
Stahl (Paladin)          64   35    5   29   27   24   33   14
Stahl (Great Knight)     66   38    4   27   23   24   38    8
Vaike (Warrior)          70   40    4   34   26   20   26    7
Vaike (Hero)             64   35    5   38   30   20   27    7
Miriel (Sage)            49    7   32   30   33   29   15   20
Miriel (Dark Knight)     57   13   29   30   30   29   21   19
Sumia (Falcon Knight)    51   25   15   41   41   31   18   25
Sumia (Dark Flier)       50   23   19   38   39   31   17   25
Kellam (General)         65   36    5   29   22   15   40   17
Kellam (Great Knight)    63   35    5   28   24   15   39   14
Donnel (Villager)        46   21   10   19   19   33   21   12
Lonqu (Swordmaster)      52   28    9   40   41   26   20   15
Lonqu (Assassin)         53   29    7   43   40   26   19   11
Ricken (Sage)            55   11   31   26   26   33   21   18
Ricken (Dark Knight)     63   17   28   26   23   33   27   17
Maribelle (Valkyrie)     44    7   29   24   27   34   10   29
Maribelle (War Cleric)   51   15   28   24   24   34   14   26
Panne (Taguel)           52   22    5   26   28   18   19    8
Gaius (Assassin)         57   33    7   45   43   18   18   10
Gaius (Trickster)        54   27   14   41   41   18   16   15
Cordelia (Falcon Knight) 58   30   11   35   34   23   24   22
Cordelia (Dark Flier)    57   28   15   32   32   23   23   22
Gregor (Hero)            64   32    4   35   29   21   28    9
Gregor (Bow Knight)      67   32    3   34   29   21   25    8
Nowi (Manakete)          50   22   11   16   17   26   20   16
Libra (War Monk)         55   22   25   23   23   19   18   24
Tharja (Sorcerer)        55   13   32   19   30   15   26   19
Tharja (Dark Knight)     58   18   30   21   31   15   28   16
Anna (Trickster)         50   20   26   33   31   40   15   18
Cherche (Wyvern Lord)    62   37    6   29   27   22   33    9
Cherche (Griffon Rider)  60   34    6   32   30   22   29    9
Henry (Sorcerer)         57   19   31   32   24   21   29   16
Henry (Dark Knight)      60   24   29   34   25   21   31   13
Sayri (Swordmaster)      56   27   11   35   38   29   20   18
Tiki (Manakete)          52   24   15   20   21   26   23   18
Basilio (Warrior)        67   37    4   31   26   23   25   10
Flavia (Hero)            58   31    7   35   33   27   27   14

We haven't touched averages yet, though it might be refreshing as the differences between units will be a lot more pronounced. Sumia/Gaius/Lon'qu are almost unmatched in speed though, and everyone will have to take care not to die to getting doubled by them.

Do you think a "fan fiction-y" meta where characters somehow promote to something other than their usual branch (if that) could be interesting? e.g. assume Chrom levels until lv. 20 Lord, then somehow promotes to Sniper and keeps levelling there. It's still averages with characters being very different from one another, yet the range of options is much greater.

It's also a good question what kind of skills will be allowed in averages/no reclass (parents') meta.

But I think it's really worth trying out some time; could be less of a mess than children's max stats metagame (we'll talk a lot more about that after Horace and Elieson's game is over).

[Elieson]

reimagining the FE14 Parallel seal could accomplish what you're talking about, bro

I'd probably still ban Counter (otherwise every team will run natural Barbarians and/or kids who inherit Counter), and the same with Lethality and Bond

[AnonymousSpeed]

Do you think a "fan fiction-y" meta where characters somehow promote to something other than their usual branch (if that) could be interesting? e.g. assume Chrom levels until lv. 20 Lord, then somehow promotes to Sniper and keeps levelling there. It's still averages with characters being very different from one another, yet the range of options is much greater.

Sure, I'm up for some fan fiction.

[Espinosa]

I mean, is Great Lord Chrom going to have just Lord/Great Lord skills, or Bow Knight/Sniper/Great Knight/Paladin ones as well?

I think children are best left out of the averages meta, as is Robin (for there being way too many possible variants with growth rates changing depending on asset/flaw, especially with the fanfiction Fates!Second Seal idea).

Also, for the fan fiction idea in particular, wouldn't it make more sense to (Fates!)Second Seal the characters while still unpromoted? Kellam levelled as a Knight will have less magic as a Sage than one raised as a Priest. In other situations, a Dark Flier Lissa, for instance, will rather level as Cleric than Pegasus Knight for more magic (or maybe not, if she'd rather have the speed). This makes matters more complicated however, and the difference is so small (<4 points in a stat could really matter, but there are stat boosters in the same meta to remedy this) that we could ignore it.

Choosing the second option (calculating the alternative unpromoted growths, like Archer Chrom instead of Lord Chrom for Bow Knight) creates another problem - what do we do for cases like Great Knight Frederick or Assassin Lon'qu, two of whose class sets can reach the desired class?

Basically, I don't know.

[Elieson]

To be honest, I'd rather see a meta where we introduce the ability for any character to start off leveling from where they're at, but as any class available to them. I.e. Pick a unit, but you can freely choose their starting class and promotion line;

For instance,

A team picks Vaike, Sumia, Chrom, Tharja and Nowi.

That team consists of 20/20 stat:

Thief->Assassin Vaike

Knight->General Sumia

Cavalier->Great Knight Chrom

Dark Mage->Sorcerer Tharja

Wyvern Rider->Wyvern Lord Nowi

Each unit derives their stats using growths compatible with those classes, assuming they were recruited as such, rather than their base class, so Chrom uses 19 levels of Cavalier growths and 19 levels of Great Knight growths, to determine his stat lineup. For skills, I'm not really sure how to handle that. I feel like skill lineup alters the demand for certain classes. Sorcerers are a bit less viable if they don't have other skills to bolster their durability, as they're rolling some nifty skills for themselves but limited to predictable options, and anybody using Superior Jolt puts them in their place.

Not sure, thoughts?

Maybe have them have all skill options available to their class tree branches, but just stats are determined by which class line you pick them to start off as

Edited July 5, 2015 by Elieson

[Espinosa]

Sorcs always have Tomebreaker, so Superior Jolt+ won't really be any more effective than any non-tome weapon attacking the Sorc. I do agree that some classes will be preferred to others; I suppose it shouldn't exactly be our aim to make absolutely everyone viable (which the max stats meta does kinda achieve, in a way). When you think about it, the averages metagames we have had so far have been the strictest about drawing the line between the more viable units and the outsiders.

Having only the skills taken from one promotion path (e.g. Frederick users choose between Knight/Great Knight or Cavalier/Great Knight if choosing Fred, but Frederick actually doesn't gain any levels unpromoted, so let's take Lon'qu as our example instead).

Giving players more choice to the extent where it's too much also means more difficulty in the pre-battle planning stage, because it's always easier to have succinct stat tables in the resource thread to assist with team building and host checking the data. There's bound to be one person who will insist on meticulously planning the path to 20/20 promoted, e.g. "I'll take 5 Cavalier levels, followed by 14 Myrmidon levels" and so on.