link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Refa]

Submitted my new and maybe improved team.

[Espinosa]

@Dio

The Laguzguard mindgames are probably the part I enjoyed the most within this game, even though it can get easy to notice who has who. After all, why would a flyer sacrifice protection against arrows and one could guess where the Knight Ward nests.

I think the mindgames could go deeper over with players taking higher risk for higher reward. For example, Marcia who is unlikely to give up the Full Guard due to the crippling weakness to Silver Bows is hardly predicted to guard herself against Laguz attacks, so a Naesala or Giffca hitting her will be in for a nasty surprise, while the Full Guard would be taken for granted. What you aim to do with a team is probably most important - e.g. is Gatrie/Brom/Makalov trying to last until lategame or deliver attacks while barely taking any damage back?

I'd say the metagame is really kind to Ike, especially combined with his good bud Oscar. Other decent cores would include the two we had today (Shinon-Gatrie and Astrid-Makalov), but I dare say Tanith-Marcia has its uses due to Reinforce and the continued support from Oscar. Brom-Zihark sounds like another interesting one. Brom's a bit inferior to Gatrie since he's a bit weaker, less bulky and even faces displayed critical from everyone not named Mist, but he supports an interesting unit who's able to double quite a few units, has a lot of displayed critical with a Vague Katti and comes with the useful Adept skill. Nephenee could also be used instead of Zihark with her amazing critical hit rate coupled with decent bulk and crazy chipping potential with Wrath!Wishblade.

I think Reinforce could be used with more manual input, e.g. Tanith summons the pegs, and on every active turn you get the option to send the pegs to attack somebody in the opposing team - anyone (alternatively, the target of the main character's attack), with the pegs capable of dying to counterattacks. The Silver Lance Falco has 32 atk, so there are plenty of enemies into whom that could put a dent (really limited use lategame though), and you could maintain her presence by only choosing to attack bow users or something.

Once I implement the Fixed Mode stats, Brom's niche will be being undoublable by Ilyana no matter what tome she uses, and Zihark is a good support partner (though I wonder if SMs aren't threatened by Generals more than Shinon is threatened by said SMs). Brom has only 3% cevo less than Gatrie (and we did see Gatrie critted during the last game), though that's still enough to see some displayed crit nearly every battle (Wishblade is still +3 luck fwiw).

Sadly, Sages, Rhys and a bunch of late joining units don't have much of a chance in this metagame. Mist has horrible accuracy, but interesting support options with Jill, Rolf and possibly Boyd. Other than Zihark, Swordmasters also tend to have terrible support options, though I guess using them on their own is alright if you really need the doubling. Finally, Laguz also end up at the bottom of the barrel, which I think is sad because I'd really like to use Janaff in a Ike-Oscar-Janaff-Shinon core.

Ilyana seems like the only usable Sage due to Shade. With stat boosters, it's difficult to say if Soren would be viable with, say, Dracos, a robe and a Speedwings. Capped spd Sages do avoid being doubled by SMs (most of whom capram str w/o boosters and thus cannot go further while Sages can always improve their bulk), but Rhys cannot be salvaged as a potential Nosferatank because his str is just so low.

Mia has some great supports IMO but poor bulk prevents her from taking a brave lance to the face.

I'm honestly not certain on Shade and Provoke. Hell I only wanted Shinon dead first because Deadeye is really annoying. Plus, I pretty much figured out he had to have a Laguzguard against the likes of Giffca, so I really hoped an Aether proc would happen to kill him outright in round 1. But that didn't happen and the game got likely a lot more interesting because of it wouldn't you think.

Ice Sage's Shinon had his Provoke skill removed, and it wouldn't have served any value anyway. Shinon was the first guy you'd want to take down anyway.

Also I'm really iffy on useable Ragnell. The sword has the might of a forged Silver, but trades a good amount of accuracy for 5 Defense and ranged possibilities. In a way, this new Ike is going to remind me a bit of a better Makalov, with range, a better proc that activates more often, and a good amount more accuracy and evade. At least he doesn't have the mindgames of a second, unknown weapon.

I think Ragnelless Ike is still superior to Makalov in every way even with swordlock and slightly less defence. Ike switching to the Ragnell also doesn't get Brave Sword's double-Aether-proc chance (47% chance to proc Aether while braving somebody) and 28 defence can still be pierced well enough as we've witnessed in the last game. His anti-Laguz bulk with a Laguzguard becomes really scary though, and Ragnell also makes sniping Ike troublesome because that counter really hurts and enables you to take the Sniper down the next turn.

Well done on spotting the use for Roar too. Roar can also be used to pretty much skip attacking somebody and force the opponent to use a specific unit to attack your guys, one he would hesitate to attack you with for instance.

@dondon

i'm still not sure why units using 1-2 range are not countered when they attack a unit locked to 1 range

That's how it works in GBA arena, true. If we followed that, Snipers would counter Wishblades and Swordmasters would always hit Sages back. Tome users become even less viable as a result (as if it's even needed), Ilyana's Shade only useful for having her just stand there giving people supports since anything counters her now.

We do try to sort of imitate the existing link arenas but there's room for a tiny bit of "fan fiction" here with a goal to create a better meta.

also, all this information hiding is really puzzling. why is there a need to scout at all? how come you have to guess which units have laguzguards or full guards or knight ward?

Most of the guessing can be entirely circumvented by revealing starting weapons and items, as players don't have the liberty to target somebody to see the numbers (they'd have to ask me or something). It started out as a limitation due to being limited to exchanging posts in this thread, and I think by now there's good evidence that it greatly improves the experience. Things get really straightforward if you just size up the other party's weapons and then get your numbers alligned against the less advantageous numbers in the opposing army. Learning it step by step as the battle goes on is a wholly different thing however.

explain how this works

If a royal gives up the Laguz Band to equip the Full Guard for tome/arrow protection, he will have a gauge that should deplete completely in about 6 or so active turns, at which point it's a wise idea to get that Laguz to act and un-equip the Full Guard to maintain a transformation for the rest of the lategame. So, let's say you have a situation such as turn 14 of the last game. Tibarn's gauge is at 1/20 but it's Dio's turn, so he uses Giffca's Roar to stun Tibarn for the next turn. He misses his turn, untransforming and being unable to equip the Laguz Band. It's Dio's turn yet again, and now his only target is untransformed Tibarn who went down from 28 AS to 25, doubled by Giffca, plus lacking some transformed defence. Giffca can deliver two monstrous blows on Tibarn now, making it even harder for Tibarn to solo Dio's team with Cancel procs.

[shadykid]

so you grab the Laguz Band a turn before that happens

epic strats countered

[Espinosa]

so you grab the Laguz Band a turn before that happens

epic strats countered

Which can also have negative side-effects. In this game, using Tibarn's turn instead of Ike's on turn 14 would mean depriving moribund Ike of his last time to attack, which would grant him an opportunity to activate Sol (two such opportunities in fact, if he were to gamble a bit with a Brave Sword) and extend his vitality for an extra turn or two.

You can't change one character's equipment and act with another one on the same turn.

[shadykid]

using Tibarn's turn instead of Ike's in a hypothetical turn 15 under the exact same scenario leads to the same thing

so not really

[Espinosa]

using Tibarn's turn instead of Ike's in a hypothetical turn 15 under the exact same scenario leads to the same thing

so not really

Because we know the outcome. As long as injured Ike can initiate attacks, he can replenish his HP, and at a higher percentage / with heavier damage than the Paladins. With Runesword users being mostly pretty shitty, Ike and Paladins are the only folks capable of recovering their health, so they may stay alive for longer than the armours and the royal Laguz.

I have Refa's team in PM, but until I'm getting ZM's I'm not looking at it just in case I'll be playing myself, since ZM hasn't sent me his yet. Not sure if I should cook one up, however; can't take very long though.

[dondon151]

Most of the guessing can be entirely circumvented by revealing starting weapons and items, as players don't have the liberty to target somebody to see the numbers (they'd have to ask me or something). It started out as a limitation due to being limited to exchanging posts in this thread, and I think by now there's good evidence that it greatly improves the experience. Things get really straightforward if you just size up the other party's weapons and then get your numbers alligned against the less advantageous numbers in the opposing army. Learning it step by step as the battle goes on is a wholly different thing however.

i don't think that's true at all. you've gone from making informed decisions to mostly guesswork. plus there is literally no example in fire emblem where an attacking unit doesn't know how much damage he could sustain in return.

You can't change one character's equipment and act with another one on the same turn.

why not?

[Espinosa]

i don't think that's true at all. you've gone from making informed decisions to mostly guesswork. plus there is literally no example in fire emblem where an attacking unit doesn't know how much damage he could sustain in return.

The latter is a good point; all I can say to argue against it is that Fire Emblem also isn't played via forum posts with units' average stats (which I'm planning to adjust to not really accurately represent either mode's actual averages for the sake of making changes that I see as beneficial).

It seems to me that the changes you suggest, though more FE-like, would do little but simplify the game, so you should try to convince me that such changes are good because much of this arbitrary (such as what counts as a 'turn' in case of sleep activations and when the countdown begins).

why not?

Should you be able to touch more than one unit on the same turn? We could take it further and allow trading as well, but it seems really strange to me.

[Espinosa]

Refa vs ZM begins!

Refa's team

vs.

ZM's team

The RNG has decided that ZM gets to act first. Choose your character and the weapon with which you will attack Shinon.

[ZemZem]

GO NAESALA

...You know? I probably should've had Zihark attack.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Kochiya Sanae

[Espinosa]

[spoiler=see teams here]

Refa's team

vs.

ZM's team

vs

Turn 1.

ZM's Naesala attacks Refa's Shinon (Brave Bow)!

9 damage 100% hit 0% crit no skill

(64 90 91)

Shinon receives 9/46 damage!

(53 34 23)

Shinon receives 9/46 damage!

Both sides survive the battle.

Refa

Ike 52/52

Shinon 28/46

Gatrie 58/58

Ilyana 39/39

Naesala 61/61 (16)

ZM

Ilyana 39/39

Gatrie 58/58

Zihark 45/45

Naesala 61/61

Marcia 43/43

Refa acts next.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

It seems to me that the changes you suggest, though more FE-like, would do little but simplify the game, so you should try to convince me that such changes are good because much of this arbitrary (such as what counts as a 'turn' in case of sleep activations and when the countdown begins).

well, why is it my job to convince you that changing it back to the way it originally was will be "good" when you don't have to demonstrate that the current state is "good?" and i'm not sure how making information more transparent is simplifying the game. it takes away the initial guesswork, but it's difficult to justify the guesswork being a good thing in the first place aside from maybe introducing more variance and prolonging matches.

Should you be able to touch more than one unit on the same turn? We could take it further and allow trading as well, but it seems really strange to me.

i think we would have to make exceptions for this game because of equippable items and laguz transformation. for example, if i (for some reason) ran a laguz that had to use a laguz stone to transform, i wouldn't be too happy about being forced to also attack with that laguz if someone else would have been a better choice. or if i wanted to switch between knight ward, laguzguard, and full guard on one unit while attacking with another. i don't think that trading should be allowed.

[Refa]

Aw yeah. Um, stoopid Zihark, Shinon Brave Bow him! prostrat cannot fail

[Espinosa]

[spoiler=see teams here]

Refa's team

vs.

ZM's team

vs

Turn 2.

Refa's Naesala transforms!

Refa's Shinon (Brave Bow) attacks ZM's Zihark (Vague Katti)!

9x2 damage 100% hit 11% crit 14% Deadeye

(21 97 0 91)

Critical hit!

Zihark receives 27/45 damage!

(52 73 93 93)

Zihark receives 9/45 damage!

Both sides survive the fight.

Refa

Ike 52/52

Shinon 28/46

Gatrie 58/58

Ilyana 39/39

Naesala 61/61 (20)

ZM

Ilyana 39/39

Gatrie 58/58

Zihark 9/45

Naesala 61/61

Marcia 43/43

ZM acts next.

[ZemZem]

Curses!

Zihark, retaliate with the Vague Katti! On Shinon, if I need to specify.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Kochiya Sanae

[Icon of Sin]

I think the mindgames could go deeper over with players taking higher risk for higher reward. For example, Marcia who is unlikely to give up the Full Guard due to the crippling weakness to Silver Bows is hardly predicted to guard herself against Laguz attacks, so a Naesala or Giffca hitting her will be in for a nasty surprise, while the Full Guard would be taken for granted. What you aim to do with a team is probably most important - e.g. is Gatrie/Brom/Makalov trying to last until lategame or deliver attacks while barely taking any damage back?

I think Reinforce could be used with more manual input, e.g. Tanith summons the pegs, and on every active turn you get the option to send the pegs to attack somebody in the opposing team - anyone (alternatively, the target of the main character's attack), with the pegs capable of dying to counterattacks. The Silver Lance Falco has 32 atk, so there are plenty of enemies into whom that could put a dent (really limited use lategame though), and you could maintain her presence by only choosing to attack bow users or something.

Once I implement the Fixed Mode stats, Brom's niche will be being undoublable by Ilyana no matter what tome she uses, and Zihark is a good support partner (though I wonder if SMs aren't threatened by Generals more than Shinon is threatened by said SMs). Brom has only 3% cevo less than Gatrie (and we did see Gatrie critted during the last game), though that's still enough to see some displayed crit nearly every battle (Wishblade is still +3 luck fwiw).

Ilyana seems like the only usable Sage due to Shade. With stat boosters, it's difficult to say if Soren would be viable with, say, Dracos, a robe and a Speedwings. Capped spd Sages do avoid being doubled by SMs (most of whom capram str w/o boosters and thus cannot go further while Sages can always improve their bulk), but Rhys cannot be salvaged as a potential Nosferatank because his str is just so low.

Mia has some great supports IMO but poor bulk prevents her from taking a brave lance to the face.

Ice Sage's Shinon had his Provoke skill removed, and it wouldn't have served any value anyway. Shinon was the first guy you'd want to take down anyway.

Well done on spotting the use for Roar too. Roar can also be used to pretty much skip attacking somebody and force the opponent to use a specific unit to attack your guys, one he would hesitate to attack you with for instance.

If a royal gives up the Laguz Band to equip the Full Guard for tome/arrow protection, he will have a gauge that should deplete completely in about 6 or so active turns, at which point it's a wise idea to get that Laguz to act and un-equip the Full Guard to maintain a transformation for the rest of the lategame. So, let's say you have a situation such as turn 14 of the last game. Tibarn's gauge is at 1/20 but it's Dio's turn, so he uses Giffca's Roar to stun Tibarn for the next turn. He misses his turn, untransforming and being unable to equip the Laguz Band. It's Dio's turn yet again, and now his only target is untransformed Tibarn who went down from 28 AS to 25, doubled by Giffca, plus lacking some transformed defence. Giffca can deliver two monstrous blows on Tibarn now, making it even harder for Tibarn to solo Dio's team with Cancel procs.

Of course. It's basically like a game of poker, you never know what's in the hand of your opponent. To put it in more familiar terms for video game players, not all Pokémon sets remain the same.

And here I thought you'd have a Other phase where each flyer would attack a target, usually one they would attack normally. Still, it buys time for the rest of the team, though I think if Tanith is in a team that goes second, she might be the first target considering how frail she is.

Gatrie misses the 1RKO on Zihark unless he has a Marcia support and Zihark isn't supported though. To be fair, I don't think Zihark's role is to last well into the lategame, but rather kill key targets quickly, preferably with the use of multiple attacks and criticals. 93 avoid with a Brom support still faces around 60-70 hit from Brave Lance Gatrie.

If boosters come in play, of course more units can come into play. As you mention, Sages bring quite a bit of power with them, but Titania, Boyd and Jill can also become quite viable. Mist could also get some more use, especially since she supports all three with a nice Water affinity that increases her Defense by a lot. She almost has the monopoly on Secret Books and Goddess Icons since no else really needs them as much.

Only Largo gives a tiny bit of Avoid, though I guess the extra accuacy, which all her supports give, is nice with Brave Swords and (a girl can hope) the Runesword. The latter won't protect her at all from a potential Turn 1 Gatrie, but could see a lot of use if he's not present.

Yeah, I went with Brave Sword Ike for the possibility of a 3HKO assuming I had an Aether proc.

Thanks, though I was a bit too late to try the tactic on Tibarn. I could've, but having Ike possibly kill Giffca with a Silver Sword Aether proc would've made me punch the screen. Besides, I think Sage was aware enough of his gauge to equip the Laguz Band at the right time assuming I had Roared Ike instead. Giffca's Roar really didn't look like anything special at first, but when i looked into the devious tricks I could perform with it, I'd say it's a decent trade off for not having offensive procs, especially with the other perks that come with it, such as 25 AS doubling, better power and bulk, lack of weaknesses to bows and such.

To give an idea, Giffca can do 23 damage per hit on an untransformed Tibarn at 100% accuracy. Of course, there's still the Cancel procs, but even those got lowered to 32% as well. At 22 HP, Tibarn can take a hit from Giffca and just about anything else can finish him off. I even had a forged Slim Sword on Ike for the very purpose of having an extremely precise, but weak hit that could finish off an opponent in the very few single digits of HP.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Woodshooter

[Espinosa]

[spoiler=see teams here]

Refa's team

vs.

ZM's team

vs

Turn 3.

ZM's Zihark (Vague Katti) attacks Refa's Shinon (Brave Bow)!

14 damage 90% hit 48% crit 27% Adept

(11)

Zihark activates Adept!

(96 89 62)

Zihark misses!

(76 14 51)

Shinon receives 14/46 damage!

Zihark attacks again!

(92)

(92 67 75)

Shinon receives 14/46 damage!

Shinon is KO'd!

Stats:

Refa

Ike 52/52

Shinon 0/46

Gatrie 58/58

Ilyana 39/39

Naesala 61/61 (20)

ZM

Ilyana 39/39

Gatrie 58/58

Zihark 9/45

Naesala 61/61

Marcia 43/43

Refa acts next.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Espinosa

[ZemZem]

Thank God he activated Adept, considering he missed with a 90%. >_>

[Espinosa]

Thank God he activated Adept, considering he missed with a 90%. >_>

tbqh you should've been attacking with, like, a silver forge or whatever considering Zihark's hardly likely to take a hit with 9 HP remaining even with the VK.

[ZemZem]

That's a solid point. I need to focus on the game more, considering I'm doing 50 other things right now lol

[Espinosa]

That's a solid point. I need to focus on the game more, considering I'm doing 50 other things right now lol

I was chugging beers during Dio vs Ice Sage and listening to Caravan albums. It was a good night.

[Refa]

Naesala kill Zihark! End his reign of evil!

[ZemZem]

I was chugging beers during Dio vs Ice Sage and listening to Caravan albums. It was a good night.

Sounds like a great one.

Naesala kill Zihark! End his reign of evil!

NO

[Icon of Sin]

I was chugging beers during Dio vs Ice Sage and listening to Caravan albums. It was a good night.

FE9 Link Arena, Beerpong edition?

I like shots better but why not.

[Espinosa]

[spoiler=see teams here]

Refa's team

vs.

ZM's team

vs

Turn 4.

Refa's Naesala attacks ZM's Zihark (Vague Katti)!

9 damage 86% hit 0% crit no skill

(56 16 84)

Zihark receives 9/45 damage!

Zihark is KO'd!

Stats:

Refa

Ike 52/52

Shinon 0/46

Gatrie 58/58

Ilyana 39/39

Naesala 61/61 (16)

ZM

Ilyana 39/39

Gatrie 58/58

Zihark 0/45

Naesala 61/61

Marcia 43/43

ZM acts next.