link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Elieson]

V dondon stall team is set

Thoughts on Corrosion destroying an opponent's currently equipped weapon entirely upon proc?

[dondon151]

Dondon I'm modifying my stall team just a bit, ill have it ready before the turn of the next hour.

wait wait what i'm so confused. what's going on?

Thoughts on Corrosion destroying an opponent's currently equipped weapon entirely upon proc?

i would rather not take liberties with skill mechanics.

Edited December 13, 2013 by dondon151

[Elieson]

do you mind if I throw together a team and get in on this?

See this page

Edit

We've taken liberties with Roar and Provoke/Shade already, haven't we?

Edited December 13, 2013 by The Protown SK

[dondon151]

We've taken liberties with Roar and Provoke/Shade already, haven't we?

yes, and i disagree with all of their implementations.

EDIT: it also seems like the high tier metagame has equilibrated quickly. i was just perusing the units and it definitely seems like rolf, marcia, kieran is a strong triad. they are strong individual units that occupy different niches and support each other as a bonus. zihark is pretty much a default. that only really leaves the 5th slot up for grabs.

i really think that rolf should be moved up a tier. he's the only available unit with deadeye, and a largely uncounterable 28 AS in combination with fair physical bulk renders all of the 24 AS units unusable. falcos and SMs also threaten 24 AS units, but at least they're forced to use 1-range for a reliable KO.

Edited December 13, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

i don't know if she should run double-siege in case bolting runs out.

For now all weapons are unbreakable, but applying this to siege tomes couldn't hurt. It may not matter at all though (besides make Ilyanas surviving until the endgame extremely vulnerable to Ike and all users of Wishblades and forged Javelins/Hand Axes).

by the way, in top tier alone, ilyana 2RKOs oscar, makalov, gatrie, shinon, and largo with bolting + rexbolt. oscar needs KW to survive, but then gets KO'd by 2x rexbolt, so he's confined to a 1-2 range weapon. brom is 2RKO'd by 2x rexbolt, with brom requiring KW to survive.

in high tier, nasir, boyd, and titania escape the bolting + rexbolt 2RKO. nasir is no longer effective with the 3x MT mechanic. boyd dies to 2x rexbolt, and titania needs a KW to escape the 2x rexbolt 2RKO.

this is all pretty ridiculous. team ilyana is getting somewhere around a +25 damage differential per round, so the opponent somehow needs to equalize with his own -25 damage differential. against ike and tibarn, that's pretty much impossible without some skill or critical hax. against oscar, you can get that much if you use a brave weapon and he somehow can't counter, but you need to hit through his earth support. against gatrie, if you don't have a magic user, your best bet is a hammer user, who is 4HKOing a stacked VK+KW gatrie (despite 3x MT!), has sub-70 hit before supports, and eats a 42 atk counter with perfect hit and ~20 crit.

Yeah, I've been thinking about some of the same, and it looks like Ilyana dominates way above the level of "every team must run Ilyana", especially now that you spell it out. She decides which characters should appear on the battlefield for example (Gatries are afraid and everybody you mention is almost as vulnerable), moreso than Giffca and Ike do.

What we see is that not having Ilyana is a definite disadvantage (Shinon + Nasir/Lucia may not be the wisest picks for two unit slots, and Nasir/Lucia alone may not survive the first turn to KO Ilyana, who may even end up having a Laguzguard for Nasir). It's now important to find out what happens if both players run Ilyana, as they should, namely whether Ilyana is going to account for a lion's share of the battling. If Ilyana chips in monstrously and her victims attempt to hit the opposing team only when they're about to die to Ilyana next turn (and even then attacking with your own Ilyana seems more productive), then it's almost certain that Shade needs to be at least active until the team size is reduced to 3, possibly Shade should be banned entirely, which means Ilyana drops from Top to Low tier and stops appearing.

I propose for Elieson vs. PKL, we try out the "Shade active until 3 people remain" rule, and see if this keeps things fun and balanced.

okay, you have to make an argument that some aspect of the metagame is desirable and not simply assume that your opponent's idea is dumb. if you want an even "niftier" aspect of the metagame, hide the names of all of the units too so that players will blindly have to command unit A to attack opponent unit E and figure out who is whom. i'm sure that you don't want that. so what's good about hiding any information at all and requiring players to scout?

I know you're being logical and whatnot, reducing the current state of things ad absurdum, but the difference between the current form of scouting and hitting shadows blindly is that the former is fun and accounts for a big part of why the metagame is fun and unpredictable (within reasonable limits), while the latter example is just stupid in practice.

Otherwise, games can get pretty boring without any preditction or risk management (aside from that when you send in your team) - guy has a Brave Lance? Attack him at 2-range. We'll just find out the RNG does whatever to lead a game to some outcome and quit playing.

i really think that rolf should be moved up a tier. he's the only available unit with deadeye, and a largely uncounterable 28 AS in combination with fair physical bulk renders all of the 24 AS units unusable. falcos and SMs also threaten 24 AS units, but at least they're forced to use 1-range for a reliable KO.

Rolf dies so easily to a double silver attack (same thing he does in Top tier) that I think he benefits from appearing in High, because he has to appear somewhere. Shinon has a niche that he lacks, and with SMs not being very welcome in the Top meta Shinon's speed disadvantage isn't critical. There's barely any reason to use Rolf unless you put some trust into his brotherly 10% crit with Oscar.

I included an updated tier list in the OP, making some changes to certain units' placement. Didn't pay much attention at all to the ordering inside the same tier though.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Espinosa

[PKL]

Uh, I sent my team to you Espi. Let's gogo Eliedon! :P

[dondon151]

Yeah, I've been thinking about some of the same, and it looks like Ilyana dominates way above the level of "every team must run Ilyana", especially now that you spell it out. She decides which characters should appear on the battlefield for example (Gatries are afraid and everybody you mention is almost as vulnerable), moreso than Giffca and Ike do.

part of the gatrie problem is that ilyana both counters gatrie and strongly synergizes with gatrie. so that also obviously drives up gatrie use.

I know you're being logical and whatnot, reducing the current state of things ad absurdum, but the difference between the current form of scouting and hitting shadows blindly is that the former is fun and accounts for a big part of why the metagame is fun and unpredictable (within reasonable limits), while the latter example is just stupid in practice.

Otherwise, games can get pretty boring without any preditction or risk management (aside from that when you send in your team) - guy has a Brave Lance? Attack him at 2-range. We'll just find out the RNG does whatever to lead a game to some outcome and quit playing.

slippery slope is not logical, but you have to make the case that a certain amount of hidden information is good while a greater amount of hidden information is not good. i actually don't think that my latter example is stupid (or rather, i think it's equally stupid as the current paradigm). what's so bad about matching up 5 hidden units against each other? obviously once a unit has engaged in a round of combat, his information will become public.

there's not much prediction to be had with the current paradigm, anyway. figuring out which unit has a laguzguard is purely guesswork until enough combat has been done to eliminate or confirm item equips. as for weapon choice, the best option is always the safest option until the equipped weapon is revealed.

Rolf dies so easily to a double silver attack (same thing he does in Top tier) that I think he benefits from appearing in High, because he has to appear somewhere. Shinon has a niche that he lacks, and with SMs not being very welcome in the Top meta Shinon's speed disadvantage isn't critical. There's barely any reason to use Rolf unless you put some trust into his brotherly 10% crit with Oscar.

but we should treat the tier list as a banlist. rolf is just way too good for high tier. he requires 2 rounds of combat to kill and he 2RKOs everyone relevant except for kieran, neph, and jill. he has the greatest role in making units with <24 AS inviable because he ORKOs them without risking a heavy counter. at least if someone like marcia tries to ORKO boyd with a brave sword, boyd could have a brave axe equipped and threaten to ORKO in return on the counter. not only that, but rolf is guaranteed perfect accuracy, has non-negligible innate critical, and a 24.3% chance to sleep a unit in any round of combat.

what does shinon have that rolf lacks? provoke and gatrie support. provoke's utility is questionable at best because we've seen snipers go down first very frequently anyway. gatrie support matters, but don't let's forget that rolf has a slight str lead and is not doubled by SMs.

[Elieson]

I just crunched some major numbers, and I've got a team built and ready for my fight against PKL. Who's hosting?

**Edit**

Submitted my team into Espi's PM bocks.

Edited December 13, 2013 by The Protown SK

[PKL]

It seems it's hawkeye that will host our match, though I sent mine to Espi too.

[Elieson]

They both have mine.

Why can Lucia maintain Parity and learn Astra if Parity cancels all skils during a battle, including Astra? As in, what's the point?

Edited December 13, 2013 by The Protown SK

[Espinosa]

They both have mine.

Why can Lucia maintain Parity and learn Astra if Parity cancels all skils during a battle, including Astra? As in, what's the point?

The point is that Parity won't activate on counters. It's a command you may choose when attacking (like Gamble).

[PKL]

Can Gamble be used with Deadeye?

[Elieson]

Oh I'm a derp, and thought it was innate auto, like Vantage.

[Elieson]

In response to Gamble, it kills hit rates pre-Deadeye, so it's unlikely to even trigger DE with the skill proc occurring last, since hit drips so drastically.

But I do believe it occurs

[Espinosa]

Can Gamble be used with Deadeye?

We're 5 points of skill capacity short (not like we're applying skills just yet though) to have both (promoted foot units have 25 SP, mounted ones have 20).

In a meta with skills, I can see Gamble being good for trying to fish for crits on, like, armours (who cannot avoid attacks at all, though the displayed hit is still probably quite a bit lower than 160-200 before getting halved).

I'm really looking forward to trying out the meta with skills.

[Elieson]

Why aren't we trying meta with skills?

[Espinosa]

We probably will soon. It's going to open a Pandora's box of random Wraths and Resolves, but who says Ike wants to give up Aether for those for example?

The main reason why we don't go there yet is that we haven't decided what to do with Shade (and Provoke) yet. Ike can grab both Provoke and Aether for example, and attempt to solo somebody's entire team from turn 1 (though he's still, like, 3HKO'd with Silver Lance forges). Who would be the best user of Shade (whatever we decide to do with it)? Well, there's Soren who has +4 mag over Ilyana, plus a better proc skill than Flare, and 10 more skill points for something like... uh, no idea, Nihil to target Tibarns with Cancel? Nihil might be preferred on a combat unit instead, though (such as to kill Shade Sorens with Brave weapons). Anyone would be Nihil users, not just Nasir and Calill, and unreliable proc skills like Stun, Sol and Luna coud be traded for more reliable ones, like Wrath, Resolve or Vantage.

There's definitely a lot more freedom there, and more room to break the metagame.

[Elieson]

Wrath Vantage Resolve Nephenee!Wishblade would tear the meta game in half

[Espinosa]

Wrath Vantage Resolve Nephenee!Wishblade would tear the meta game in half

That's 30/25 SP. Any two of these still make a deadly combination. There's also the problem of Nasir/Ena having 40 SP, which permits them to equip a lot of good stuff at once, and you can even stall with Shinon + 2nd Provoker until one of them naturally transforms.

I guess we shouldn't teach skills to Laguz royals since they don't join before the final chapter (and it makes sense for metagame balance too).

[Elieson]

That's 30/25 SP. Any two of these still make a deadly combination.

That's what I was implying, that two of the three skills in any combination, (plus her support list) spell out a huge threat.

There's also the problem of Nasir/Ena having 40 SP, which permits them to equip a lot of good stuff at once, and you can even stall with Shinon + 2nd Provoker until one of them naturally transforms.

I guess we shouldn't teach skills to Laguz royals since they don't join before the final chapter (and it makes sense for metagame balance too).

I agree wrt royals

[Espinosa]

One needs just 23 AS to double everything sans Naesala in Resolve mode (and Naesala gets doubled too if the Resolve user has 26 AS, but it's not like we see much of him anyway), so it's quite scary indeed. Nihil cancels it all out obviously. Luckily, once you're in Resolve range, you also don't stay alive for very long.

[dondon151]

The point is that Parity won't activate on counters. It's a command you may choose when attacking (like Gamble).

parity is not a command skill in FE9.

provoke needs to be either nullified or banned entirely if it can be assigned. provoke ike with reyson in the wings is almost invincible. shade, too, in its current form can be abused by a unit like tauroneo or nephenee to stay in resolve or wrath range after they've gotten there.

[Elieson]

parity is not a command skill in FE9.

provoke needs to be either nullified or banned entirely if it can be assigned. provoke ike with reyson in the wings is almost invincible. shade, too, in its current form can be abused by a unit like tauroneo or nephenee to stay in resolve or wrath range after they've gotten there.

Sf site doesn't clarify in fe9

Also the theoretical Multi-Shade holders would be interesting to approach, as one could just load a team with 2 seigers and abuse Laguz Royal Deftanks / Ena / et al, pretty much forcing teams to include Parity users or just outright fail.

Also also, Provoke+Vantage on hardhitters like Neph would be bad. I'd look into banning that, as well as Vantage+Guard

Edited December 14, 2013 by The Protown SK

[Espinosa]

parity is not a command skill in FE9.

provoke needs to be either nullified or banned entirely if it can be assigned. provoke ike with reyson in the wings is almost invincible. shade, too, in its current form can be abused by a unit like tauroneo or nephenee to stay in resolve or wrath range after they've gotten there.

Resolve/Shade/Adept Rolf also sounds like a scary combo. Get into Resolve range by getting countered, then shoot people. Wrath over Adept can also be used since his crit chance is already high.

Also, Nihil and Parity scrolls are available, so anybody with 38+ atk can remove Reyson off the battlefield in one attack, after which you can focus on Ike. For the record, Mia with a Silver Sword forge has 40 atk. Reyson isn't viable with skills I say.

Something's probably getting banned, but I can't say exactly what yet.

Sf site doesn't clarify in fe9

Also the theoretical Multi-Shade holders would be interesting to approach, as one could just load a team with 2 seigers and abuse Laguz Royal Deftanks / Ena / et al, pretty much forcing teams to include Parity users or just outright fail.

Also also, Provoke+Vantage on hardhitters like Neph would be bad. I'd look into banning that, as well as Vantage+Guard

I actually just went ahead and used PoR Lucia (she's not deployable even in 0% growths). It's not a command skill, like dondon says, and it does activate on enemy phase. So there's no point in giving your Parity holder any other skills.

Two siegers definitely sounds bad, but remember that Nihil/Parity can be used on anyone now, so Ilyana and Soren are also dying to a single Brave attack. I think the skills metagame makes them unviable.

Guard is a proc skill, so it's unlikely to activate most of the time. Don't forget that you can force the other player to attack you first, something that my last game with Hawkeye shows nicely.

[Espinosa]

I was feeling stupid this morning and not able to do anything besides do stuff with numbers so I updated the opening post with unit stats for a potential Maximum Stats metagame.

I'm still feeling stupid and unable to do anything productive tonight, so if you're interested, tell me and I'll do a quick write-up of some significant changes for specific characters and in general, because I think that's a metagame worth trying out some time. I was imagining how things would work out while I was typing it all up.