link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Elieson]

looks too much like Smogon

What about skills in the Capped Arena?

[Espinosa]

The stats on the list are basically the maximum possible stats assuming each character gains perfect level-ups all the time. Not all caps are rammed (especially luck on later joiners) and so far stat boosters aren't factored in since you have a very limited number (and I'm not sure if we should add them just yet for reasons some of which I'll try remember to list below).

So, some of the BIG changes are:

Physical Durability

Characters who join you early in-game get a huge boost in durability, many of them reaching 60 or slightly below HP. The Sages (plus Mist and Rhys) are far tankier and should be able to withstand a round or two of combat, offering some qualities that melee units do not possess. Depending on supports you come up, they could be pretty viable whereas in the average meta they were literally unusable.

Resistance

A lot of characters went from being owned by Ilyana to having more than enough resistance to tolerate a few rounds of her chip damage, going from miniscule to capped Resistance stats. Ilyana also improved, reaching mostly undoublable 28 AS.

Attack Speed

Characters who previously risked being doubled and instantaneously removed from the field are no longer doubled as easily and withstand rounds of combat. Generals, in particular, reach 24 AS (not Tauroneo though) and are doubled by fewer enemy types (Sages of all kinds now threaten them however).

Luck

Characters with sufficient space for growth cap their luck at 40, which gives them advantage against certain others who do not (royals are among them). Criticals are really sparse in this metagame, which is probably a good thing.

Weapon weight

Characters who were too weighed down by important weapons to be useful now wield them no problems, Sages and Rhys capping str at 15, and Mist and Elincia easily reaching 20 str to use Runeswords.

Non-royal Laguz

The non-Royals become very viable in this metagame, reaching and sometimes surpassing royals in durability, speed and offering team chemistry with supports (Lethe supports Ike and Mist, Janaff Oscar and Shinon). Janaff and Lethe stand out for their immediate transformation (so they don't need the Demi Band until late into the game) and... 32 AS. This lets them double people like Ike, Marcia and everyone slower, and Janaff does bring in his own Cancel so he can tank well. Naesala still outspeeds everyone else with 37 AS.

Since stunning and sleeping might be more common in this meta, Ena is here with her Boon. Give her the Demi Band and she has 72 HP/35 def/33 res, becoming tankier than the Generals even. 27 AS makes her hard to double too. Rexbolt from Ilyana is kinda scary, but we might end up banning Shade, nerfing its usage or launching the skill metagame with Nihil and Parity scrolls, so Ena could well be a walloper here. 43 atk with the Demi Band is not bad, though hit could be more reliable.

Balance

A lot of characters who already capped their stats or were otherwise too good in the averages meta receive barely or no boosts at all, letting others perform well in the same environment.

Meanwhile, units with previously underwhelming combat capabilities gain some offence, defence or both, and could function effectively in support-based teams.

I think this metagame is just asking for skill customisation, because the units are really healthy so you need good proc skills and some offensive abilities like Resolve and Wrath to dish out more threatening damage.

As for stat boosters... they still kinda break the game. Give Giffca all your Speedwings and he's unstoppable. Or feed all your boosters to a Laguz or two and their stats will skyrocket due to having really high caps. Breaks the balance, really.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Espinosa

[Elieson]

Problem with Laguz be it that most are locked to one range (bar a Vortex user). Ena is obviously holding a Full Guard, because Boon is just to valuable and stray Laguz Killing gear/Thunder+/Rexbolts would otherwise run her down fast. Boon is effectively destroying utility gained by running Giffca!Roar, Deadeye and Stun (vs damage, which still hurts of course), leaving more dependant on occult skills like Luna, Collosus and Flare (Aether to an extent too). Sol is relatively useless because the users gain miniscule amounts of offense, while defense is universally exploding from all units.

If we run this type of arena, 3x effectiveness really should be used, to make things like Hammer!Keiran and Bow!Anyone actually viable.

predicting Rexflame!Soren(Flare) will be top tier

Edited December 14, 2013 by The Protown SK

[Espinosa]

One thing I really think we should implement for all metas is GBA range countering. This makes Ilyana, whatever we decide to do with her, only able to safely use Rexbolt when finishing something off (since 1-range counters her), and stally chip strategies like Ragnelling Tibarn at 2-range also go away. Bows become more valuable for the purpose of avoiding counters, while 1-2 range still has its purpose in countering attacks of either range. Ilyana will only be able to dish our her monstrous chip through siege, and sieging is inaccurate unless Gatrie is supporting with +15 hit (and Gatrie isn't safe with the other Ilyana around). And yeah, a Ragnell nerf is a good thing, too.

Concerning Ena, remember that she has a lot of defence to tank hits with Laguzslaying weapons (which are pretty inaccurate too) and can proc Miracle 24% of the time.

Offensive teams should still rule in Maximum stats meta, with Boyd and Largo being harder to double (and having way better bulk), and Nepenthe and Tauroneo having better combat stats to take rounds of combat and then deliver divine punishment when in critical condition. Things should get more tactical.

And since Aether is basically a better Adept + Sol + Luna; yeah, I can see it maintaining its topicality.

[dondon151]

Also, Nihil and Parity scrolls are available, so anybody with 38+ atk can remove Reyson off the battlefield in one attack, after which you can focus on Ike. For the record, Mia with a Silver Sword forge has 40 atk. Reyson isn't viable with skills I say.

i'm still not sure why this feature of parity/nihil still exists. both nihil and parity specify nullification of battle skills, and provoke and shade aren't battle skills.

[PKL]

Yeah, can we just stop taking liberties with skills? Look how Ilyana ended up being due to a liberty lol. Also, the above way to play seems lame (the perfect chars)

Edited December 14, 2013 by PKL

[Espinosa]

Rexflame cannot be obtained without codes. And too bad, 31 AS Sages would pack quite a wallop.

Shade/Provoke affect whether or not the unit can or should be battled. I call that a 'battle' skill.

Also, the above way to play seems lame (the perfect chars)

It looks good to me because of the number of possible teams you can run (the last games we played featured very very similar teams, even outside Top tier). I say we try it first, then make the conclusion (though I already have good expectations after going through each unit's stats myself).

But yeah, the GBA range should really be implemented for the obligatory Ilyana and Ike nerf. Being afraid to unequip 1-2 range is pretty silly. This should benefit the metagames, I can see very clearly now.

[PKL]

Nah, if anything it makes it more brainless.

[dondon151]

Shade/Provoke affect whether or not the unit can or should be battled. I call that a 'battle' skill.

this is an easy argument to counter on 2 fronts:

1. shade and provoke only affect whether a unit can be battled, but it has no effect during battle.

2. shade and provoke don't have those activation animations during battle.

1 is a logical argument, 2 is a mechanical argument. 2 is actually a stronger argument because it reflects how the game works.

Nah, if anything it makes it more brainless.

defaulting to 1-2 range is also pretty brainless.

EDIT: also, espinosa, i hope you don't mind if i take charge of a stat booster metagame.

Edited December 14, 2013 by dondon151

[PKL]

this is an easy argument to counter on 2 fronts:

1. shade and provoke only affect whether a unit can be battled, but it has no effect during battle.

2. shade and provoke don't have those activation animations during battle.

1 is a logical argument, 2 is a mechanical argument. 2 is actually a stronger argument because it reflects how the game works.

defaulting to 1-2 range is also pretty brainless.

Not really. You are often forced to decide between more damage or reliability over being safe.

[dondon151]

the capacity to make a decision only matters if the decision is meaningful. let's go over when one is forced to make a decision over weapon selection:

1. default weapon choice

under the current paradigm, with very few exceptions, the dominant default weapon choice is a 1-2 range weapon. there's very little meaningful decision-making involved here.

2. when attacking an enemy for non-lethal damage

here you also default to 1-2 range. why? if the opponent is unscouted, then 1-2 range leaves open a small chance that you won't be countered. when it comes your opponent's turn to attack, he can't take a potshot at that unit without being countered.

3. when attacking an enemy for lethal damage

this is when you break out the braves and forged silvers. arguably killing an opponent is worth not being able to counter on the subsequent turn.

reverting to GBA mechanics would also increase the utility of SMs and snipers, because axe and lance units can't just chip at SMs with impunity, and snipers would presumably have a greater number of targets that won't counter them because it's far more beneficial now to have a 1 range weapon equipped. it would severely hurt the utility of magic users, but we all know that they blow already.

Edited December 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

this is an easy argument to counter on 2 fronts:

1. shade and provoke only affect whether a unit can be battled, but it has no effect during battle.

2. shade and provoke don't have those activation animations during battle.

1 is a logical argument, 2 is a mechanical argument. 2 is actually a stronger argument because it reflects how the game works.

You might have noticed that my most invested argument in defence of many of the things referred to as liberties here was the credence in that they'd spice things up and make things fun. There have been some difficulties in the way of adequately making it work and there's still a good chance we'll get rid of a good part of these novelties, but I say it doesn't hurt to try if the idea sounds good and we'll have meatier, more colourful metas as a result of at least some of the things working.

To provide at least some response besides what I have already said, whether you find it satisfactory or not, to the first two points, PoR never did have an arena, and if it did have one, knowing the wealth of skills it added back into the series since FE5 (in contrast to the sparsity of skills in FE8 which did have an arena) who knows how some of them would operate in such an environment. In the case of Shade and Provoke, we cannot possibly tell how these skills affect the player and there's a good chance that these skills would work in certain ways.

Not really. You are often forced to decide between more damage or reliability over being safe.

Well, you botted me vs. Hawkeye so you should've noticed that much of the game was Hawkeye's constant chip from range against my feeble attempts to break his defences and also occasional chip from range as well (when I was trying to recover Oscar's HP by attacking untransformed Tibarn). The game certainly doesn't benefit from it at all.

Switching to GBA range means less pressure from Ilyana and Ike both of whom are currently really OP (Ilyanas not-quite-slowly-but-very-surely wipe the enemy team, Ike waits for the endgame to beat the other guy's Ike), and more balance between different weapon types (besides non-Shade mages). This basically:

reverting to GBA mechanics would also increase the utility of SMs and snipers, because axe and lance units can't just chip at SMs with impunity, and snipers would presumably have a greater number of targets that won't counter them because it's far more beneficial now to have a 1 range weapon equipped. it would severely hurt the utility of magic users, but we all know that they blow already.

Axe users are also currently less viable because of the lack of an axe version of the Wishblade. But yeah, these are all good points.

EDIT: also, espinosa, i hope you don't mind if i take charge of a stat booster metagame.

If by "take charge" you mean you have input to make, then I'm all ears, all ideas are welcome and doing the work on one's own doesn't get one very far. I also hope taking charge means, among other things, running or playing games, because we're doing poorly there right now (though 2 days ago we had a blast and made enormous amounts of progress). I want to hear it first too, because you like simplifying everything by removing things that may be hard to integrate, so I'm already a bit tense about some of the things you may want to cut out that I don't imagine yet.

[PKL]

Fair enough about the GBA range stuff. Though I still think the perfect characters are lame. I'll stay with the current way to play :P

[dondon151]

You might have noticed that my most invested argument in defence of many of the things referred to as liberties here was the credence in that they'd spice things up and make things fun. There have been some difficulties in the way of adequately making it work and there's still a good chance we'll get rid of a good part of these novelties, but I say it doesn't hurt to try if the idea sounds good and we'll have meatier, more colourful metas as a result of at least some of the things working.

but you can do literally anything to spice up the metagame. you could introduce ignis and galeforce (lol broken) if you wanted to. though there are many arguments to be made about how much mechanical liberty is just right, i prefer the most parsimonious alternative, which is to just let everything work the way that it actually works.

To provide at least some response besides what I have already said, whether you find it satisfactory or not, to the first two points, PoR never did have an arena, and if it did have one, knowing the wealth of skills it added back into the series since FE5 (in contrast to the sparsity of skills in FE8 which did have an arena) who knows how some of them would operate in such an environment. In the case of Shade and Provoke, we cannot possibly tell how these skills affect the player and there's a good chance that these skills would work in certain ways.

i think this is a rather easy test. hack provoke or shade onto an enemy unit and see how compelled you are to attack or not attack that unit. this is rather a waste of effort, though, as it should be almost obvious that provoke and shade are only designed to work against AI.

Switching to GBA range means less pressure from Ilyana and Ike both of whom are currently really OP (Ilyanas not-quite-slowly-but-very-surely wipe the enemy team, Ike waits for the endgame to beat the other guy's Ike), and more balance between different weapon types (besides non-Shade mages). This basically:

GBA 1-2 range doesn't nerf ilyana all that much. she can still spam bolting, which is only 2 MT weaker than rexbolt. she no longer gets those clean 2RKOs, but on at least some of them, her teammates can pick up on a kill after a bolting chip.

If by "take charge" you mean you have input to make, then I'm all ears, all ideas are welcome and doing the work on one's own doesn't get one very far. I also hope taking charge means, among other things, running or playing games, because we're doing poorly there right now (though 2 days ago we had a blast and made enormous amounts of progress). I want to hear it first too, because you like simplifying everything by removing things that may be hard to integrate, so I'm already a bit tense about some of the things you may want to cut out that I don't imagine yet.

no, i mean, i want to set up the rules (in addition to running games). rest assured i won't be making huge changes, but it gives you another way of running tests on whether provoke/shade should do anything, or how laguz transformation should work. (btw the whole nihil/parity vs. provoke/shade issue wouldn't be an issue if provoke/shade did nothing.)

Edited December 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

but you can do literally anything to spice up the metagame. you could introduce ignis and galeforce (lol broken) if you wanted to. though there are many arguments to be made about how much mechanical liberty is just right, i prefer the most parsimonious alternative, which is to just let everything work the way that it actually works.

You might have noticed I didn't take all that many liberties at all. There's an RN website that decides the outcome of fights in a manner similar to what happens in-game, the RNs are checked in accordance to skill activation specifics in-game, and just about all the skills function in the same way they do in-game. I even went for objective metagames in terms of unit stats (now we have an alternative that appears about as playable as the first). I'd say the effort to keep the fan fiction away out of this hasn't been entirely a failure.

i think this is a rather easy test. hack provoke or shade onto an enemy unit and see how compelled you are to attack or not attack that unit. this is rather a waste of effort, though, as it should be almost obvious that provoke and shade are only designed to work against AI.

That's not quite what I was referring to; by the way, we still have no idea how exactly these two skills do work on the enemy AI. It could as well 'block' them from targeting certain units. There's certainly no equivalent in the GBA games.

GBA 1-2 range doesn't nerf ilyana all that much. she can still spam bolting, which is only 2 MT weaker than rexbolt. she no longer gets those clean 2RKOs, but on at least some of them, her teammates can pick up on a kill after a bolting chip.

Bolting is less accurate and has smaller chances of crit aside from having 2 less Mt, so the chances of Ilyana tearing through a whole team are slightly lower.

no, i mean, i want to set up the rules (in addition to running games). rest assured i won't be making huge changes, but it gives you another way of running tests on whether provoke/shade should do anything, or how laguz transformation should work. (btw the whole nihil/parity vs. provoke/shade issue wouldn't be an issue if provoke/shade did nothing.)

That sounds good; I assume you want to implement stat boosters for the average metagame and not the maximum stats one, or a separate metagame that doesn't branch out of either of those?

In the averages meta there are many more stats to "fix" and it's hard to locate the points when something could be "broken". In the maximum stats meta there's not a whole lot to fix (just HP and luck for some characters mostly) and any and all stat boosters are just going to make killing machines out of Laguz, either royal or non-royal.

I guess we don't have much of an idea what the maximum stats meta is like just yet, but I think you'd be able to theorycraft it better than me with your meticulous approach to numbers.

Either way, more empiricism is good.

[dondon151]

Bolting is less accurate and has smaller chances of crit aside from having 2 less Mt, so the chances of Ilyana tearing through a whole team are slightly lower.

right, but like i said, other team members can just pick up the slack. a brave lance attack from gatrie can down most units after a successful bolting chip. there were also a number of units that were KO'd by a bolting + rexbolt combination. bolting may have effectively 16 less accuracy than rexbolt, but ilyana was getting 100 hit with rexbolt and gatrie support, so losing 16 hit isn't even that big of a deal.

That sounds good; I assume you want to implement stat boosters for the average metagame and not the maximum stats one, or a separate metagame that doesn't branch out of either of those?

In the averages meta there are many more stats to "fix" and it's hard to locate the points when something could be "broken". In the maximum stats meta there's not a whole lot to fix (just HP and luck for some characters mostly) and any and all stat boosters are just going to make killing machines out of Laguz, either royal or non-royal.

I guess we don't have much of an idea what the maximum stats meta is like just yet, but I think you'd be able to theorycraft it better than me with your meticulous approach to numbers.

well i was just going to work on the average stats metagame. what i was planning on doing:

1. allow players to apply obtainable stat boosters at their discretion, limited by the total number of stat boosters obtainable in-game.

2. implement a lazy system for taking into account growth bonuses from bands and KW. (i'm not sure KW is such a good idea because it makes the generals way too bulky.) basically in order to simplify calculation, you're allowed to apply only one band for all of a unit's potential level ups.

3. use a 3x effectiveness modifier.

4. better laguz transformation mechanics; all laguz start battle transformed.

5. shade and provoke do nothing.

and maybe allow for skill assignments, but that's another big step.

for a stat booster metagame, i'll have to allow for transparency of unit stats, but i'll keep weapon and item scouting in for now.

Edited December 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

right, but like i said, other team members can just pick up the slack. a brave lance attack from gatrie can down most units after a successful bolting chip. there were also a number of units that were KO'd by a bolting + rexbolt combination. bolting may have effectively 16 less accuracy than rexbolt, but ilyana was getting 100 hit with rexbolt and gatrie support, so losing 16 hit isn't even that big of a deal.

The 100 was displayed on stuff like Brom though, wasn't it? Brom's among the ones with the poorest avoid in the averages metagame.

I think one difficulty here is that currently Gatrie + Ilyana make such a strong duo when both are around and there's no Ilyana in the other team - good luck beating that Gatrie. But right now there's no reason not to run Ilyana, so that's a loss of 31 hit, which makes even chipping against Brom with Bolting unreliable (let alone cases like Ike x Oscar A).

2. implement a lazy system for taking into account growth bonuses from bands and KW. (i'm not sure KW is such a good idea because it makes the generals way too bulky.) basically in order to simplify calculation, you're allowed to apply only one band for all of a unit's potential level ups.

Have you found that boosters alone isn't enough? It does seem a little time-consuming to apply the bands (even in a simplified way as you stated) and KW's growths before every game, whereas the gains from boosters alone are fixed and much easier to check. 32 levels x 0,3 = 9 points of speed if KW is given to Brom, enough to cap his stat. Gatrie might be a little short but still benefits greatly from it.

Unless you see some nuances that I don't, I think if specific stats are low enough to warrant the miniscule doctoring of bands, you might as well just apply stat boosters to such stats and call it a day. You'll get really annoyed doing stuff like getting Ike 3 more HP or 1 more res, and the difference will still be tiny.

4. better laguz transformation mechanics; all laguz start battle transformed.

Could be a good idea, but we should really address which boosters and how many the Laguz can use because that's where the gamebreaking could occur. Royals in particular.

5. shade and provoke do nothing.

We talked about bulky Shinon before, so that's a good idea. 3-unit Shade may not be very gamebreaking but it doesn't hurt to play some more games without Ilyana so that we have a fresh perspective of whether her absence hurts or benefits us.

and maybe allow for skill assignments, but that's another big step.

Indeed it is; definitely bigger than the small stat changes. I still think skills would see better application in the maximum stats meta, where units are generally more balanced and a variety of team combinations is feasible.

for a stat booster metagame, i'll have to allow for transparency of unit stats, but i'll keep weapon and item scouting in for now.

Don't see why you wouldn't hide the stats as well; it's not like the changes are so drastic and unpredictable as to need being made transparent. Then again, you can actually do the maths on your own, easily and conveniently, and not have to take several turns just to find out who has the Knight Ward or a Full Guard. The convenience of it might make it worthwhile.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

Have you found that boosters alone isn't enough? It does seem a little time-consuming to apply the bands (even in a simplified way as you stated) and KW's growths before every game, whereas the gains from boosters alone are fixed and much easier to check. 32 levels x 0,3 = 9 points of speed if KW is given to Brom, enough to cap his stat. Gatrie might be a little short but still benefits greatly from it.

i figured might as well use every resource available, but this is not a high priority, and the whole KW thing makes me not want to do it.

Could be a good idea, but we should really address which boosters and how many the Laguz can use because that's where the gamebreaking could occur. Royals in particular.

ugh that's right, laguz have stupidly high caps. i think i would be content with quickbanning boosters on royals though and leave boosters on other laguz unrestricted. a boosted lethe is not as threatening as naesala, for example, and laguz also have both laguz effective weaponry and laguzguards to deal with.

EDIT: dragons might also need boosters quickbanned because of their speed and defense. ranulf is a suspect for stat booster restrictions.

Don't see why you wouldn't hide the stats as well; it's not like the changes are so drastic and unpredictable as to need being made transparent. Then again, you can actually do the maths on your own, easily and conveniently, and not have to take several turns just to find out who has the Knight Ward or a Full Guard. The convenience of it might make it worthwhile.

a 2 point difference in str, spd, or def is not negligible.

Edited December 15, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

a 2 point difference in str, spd, or def is not negligible.

Sure enough, 1 point can make the difference between KOing and missing the KO.

ugh that's right, laguz have stupidly high caps. i think i would be content with quickbanning boosters on royals though and leave boosters on other laguz unrestricted. a boosted lethe is not as threatening as naesala, for example, and laguz also have both laguz effective weaponry and laguzguards to deal with.

EDIT: dragons might also need boosters quickbanned because of their speed and defense. ranulf is a suspect for stat booster restrictions.

Imagine you give one of them ALL your boosters (which is not the best idea since the rest of the team loses out on some):

Ena - 75 HP/35 def/33 res. Scary defensive parameters, but a supported Gatrie with a VK does have better def (and Ilyana is out so there is no magic). 31 AS / 43 atk is... tolerable, I guess. Paladins should watch out. Highly accurate if given Secret Books.

Nasir - gets 37 res but who cares. 32 AS, which doubles Ike and Rolf (likely candidates for a Laguzguard), 45 atk (weaker than Tibarn), 160 hit with the books, which is more accurate than Ike attacking with Ragnell. Laguzguarded Ike receives 8x2 damage per round of combat, and counters 35 def with 44 atk, dealing joke damage unless activating Aether.

It doesn't seem THAT bad, but things could get silly.

I don't see Ranulf making that much of a fuss, really, and his Wind support with Ike makes him a usable character.

I imagine Ranulf x Ike x Lethe is a neat support triangle for the maximum stat meta (here, you don't really have enough stat boosters to make both Laguz usable) . On that note, here's a list of PoR support squares I made some time ago:

Here are the possible support squares in Path of Radiance:

Ike - Oscar - Tanith - Reyson - Ike

Ulki - Rhys - Titania - Boyd - Ulki

Rolf - Mist - Titania - Rhys - Rolf

Tanith - Oscar - Kieran - Marcia - Tanith

Rolf - Marcia - Gatrie - Shinon - Rolf

Ulki - Boyd - Mist - Mordecai - Ulki

Devdan - Tormod - Calill - Nephenee - Devdan

7 total

Each character is supported twice.

[dondon151]

Ena - 75 HP/35 def/33 res. Scary defensive parameters, but a supported Gatrie with a VK does have better def (and Ilyana is out so there is no magic). 31 AS / 43 atk is... tolerable, I guess. Paladins should watch out. Highly accurate if given Secret Books.

ena also recovers 6 or 7 HP per turn with renewal. she's not going down unless you aether or luna her. and once you get her into KO range, there's still miracle to hit through.

Nasir - gets 37 res but who cares. 32 AS, which doubles Ike and Rolf (likely candidates for a Laguzguard), 45 atk (weaker than Tibarn), 160 hit with the books, which is more accurate than Ike attacking with Ragnell. Laguzguarded Ike receives 8x2 damage per round of combat, and counters 35 def with 44 atk, dealing joke damage unless activating Aether.

It doesn't seem THAT bad, but things could get silly.

the problem is that you assume laguzguard. ike is already one of the bulkiest beorc there is, and he needs a laguzguard to not get 2RKO'd by boosted nasir. paladins and wyvern lords, who are the bulkier beorc that lack ragnell, get 2RKO's with laguzguard without defensive stat boosters. less bulky beorc (snipers, SMs) get ORKO'd without defensive investment.

that is ridiculous.

fully boosted ranulf isn't quite as ridiculous as nasir, but he still doubles the same targets, is still really bulky, and has a 22 avo support with the best beorc in the game. that's still quickban worthy in my opinion. the remaining laguz aren't nearly as threatening - i think a good rule of thumb here is that laguz who can potentially be better than a laguz royal deserve to be prohibited from using stat boosters. lethe and janaff are worse than naesala, and mordecai, muarim, and ulki are actually all pretty bad. either that or we do a complicated ban, e.g. no more than 30 transformed spd, or no more than 1 stat booster in each stat.

[Espinosa]

How about we simply modify one rule that you proposed which is:

4. better laguz transformation mechanics; all laguz start battle transformed.

I say Laguz transformation gauges still apply, which means all three of Nasir, Ena and Ranulf either equip the Demi Band, making them vulnerable to laguzslaying weapons (which still aren't too accurate) and reducing their stats, or expose themselves to hits they cannot counter (which you're not doing probably, though I suppose Full Guard Nasir/Ena could try waiting until the gauge fills in; Ranulf gets to his the quicker too). Maxed Ranulf will have 31 AS, 40 atk, threatening the Pallies somewhat but not significantly more than an attack with a Silver weapon. Nasir suffers quite a lot - going down to 31 AS, 40 atk much like Ranulf, except better bulk. The bulk is still serious business for both Nasir and Ena (29 AS, 41 atk, not doubling much of note) but you can actually target them with laguzslaying weapons now (and these weapons do have the negative sideeffect of making your next counterattack really weak against Beorc units, aside from whiffing).

Meanwhile, Janaff and Lethe, the two other playable yet not in any way overpowered non-royals, get to transform on turn 1 anyway and have below 40 atk when maxed, albeit doubling Ike with 2 Speedwings and SMs with all three, which only Naesala claims. They bring some nice supports to the table too. Even if you want to drop all your boosters their way, there's no crime in doing so (and your other units are missing out too).

What use can the Royals get out of the stat boosters? Naesala can get +2 atk which makes him much more viable considering he's competing with the other two for the Laguz Band, while Tibarn and Giffca can get enough speed to double everything including SMs and all three benefit from HP and defence boosters. 43% Cancel is kinda scary too, but not a huge improvement over the old 37% one.

tl;dr Royals banned from booster usage (they're already really good), gauges get a +4 as soon as the match starts regardless of which player gets to lead, and beginning with turn 1 the gauges either continue going up or down depending on the Laguz's equipped item. The gauge changes occur before the player's action but still at the start of his turn, and anyone can use however many you want to snowball on the same character. Nasir/Ena/Ranulf are still dangerous (if Ranulf gets attacked untransformed once, he will transform on his player's second active turn; Nasir/Ena wait a little more but are bulkier). Should you decide to dump all those invaluable boosters unto one of them, the action has the opportunity cost of, for instance, not dumping the same boosters unto Tauroneo to turn him into the booster metagame's superior General or spreading them evenly around, as any Paladin could use at least one Dracoshield and just about anyone could use a robe. Speedwings!Brom also sounds like a thing. Snipers want Energy Rings. If you really want to try soloing with Ena or Nasir, the rest of your team may not be up for the task. Okay, this paragraph wasn't tl;dr at all.

[Espinosa]

After talking about this, I looked back at the maximum stats I typed up yesterday (no boosters), and it's uncanny how this meta resembles what we're trying to achieve with the boosters branch of the averages metagame, aside from the occasional big differences in the luck stat between growth units and *some* prepromotes (Titania, Lethe and Devdan don't have the problem for example).

Lethe and Janaff have 32 AS but low power, while Ena and Nasir reach 29 and 27 AS fully transformed respectively (27 and 26 Demi-Banded). Demi-Banded Ranulf has 30 AS, 31 if you wait until he transforms or adjust the gauge rules.

In general, everybody but Sothe and Reyson seems pretty usable, only some prepromotes like Tanith (too low HP) and Bastian (23 AS) standing out as subpar units. I think that meta could promote a lot of diversity in terms of team building based around supports, and it also seems like the best metagame to open the skill pandora in.

dondon, what do you think about the maximum stats metagame?

[Hawkeye]

Hey guys, sorry I've been absent, but between being really sick, having a computer that frequently refuses to turn on, and now being back to work, I haven't had any time the past few days. As far as running games goes, for the next few weeks I'm only going to be available 6pm onwards (UTC-4) on some weekdays, and the occasional weekend. Still happy to do it though.

As far as the metagame goes, I agree with Espinosa in that the best way to determine rule changes is to play through them. Obviously this is a really slow method, as we only have a handful of people willing to play. As for some of the suggested rules, I think Laguz starting transformed is a good idea. I'm skeptical about max stats; while I could see it potentially being viable, I'm not sure if it would be better than what we currently have. Boosters are fine I think, although I think stat transparency should accompany their use, otherwise it's just "scout out which unit has all the speedwings". Bands and KW are taking it a bit far I think, because the benefit they provide in extra strategy for the players nowhere near outweighs the extra headache to the moderators. As one of the three people to run a game so far I can say with confidence that it is a lot of work and there is no need to add another set of calculations to be done for every match. As for Nihil/Parity and Shade/Provoke, obviously the former do not affect the latter in-game, but with the changes already made to the latter the suggested use of the former makes sense. I personally think now that Shade/Provoke should be banned, or at most should work for only the first enemy phase.

[Espinosa]

Hey guys, sorry I've been absent, but between being really sick, having a computer that frequently refuses to turn on, and now being back to work, I haven't had any time the past few days. As far as running games goes, for the next few weeks I'm only going to be available 6pm onwards (UTC-4) on some weekdays, and the occasional weekend. Still happy to do it though.

Yeah, I thought you'd be gone for a while by the description of your health last time we had a game. I think it could be a good idea to group PM PKL and Elieson to decide on a time to play the Royalless game.

As far as the metagame goes, I agree with Espinosa in that the best way to determine rule changes is to play through them. Obviously this is a really slow method, as we only have a handful of people willing to play.

I guess on the other hand, this thing exists to be played, so the means are exactly the same as the end.

What the maximum stats beta has is the greater viability of a variety of teams, while so far it's mostly the same 3-4 units and half a dozen more that could be viable in the same environment. The maximum stats meta has place for the usage of Boyd, Haar, non-royals and many others. Neph even looks like a good alternative to the Generals, having the same defence with the KW that Generals have with a Full Guard, higher speed, Wrath, but lower strength and no swords for Vague Katti/Silver Sword access.

As for Nihil/Parity and Shade/Provoke, obviously the former do not affect the latter in-game, but with the changes already made to the latter the suggested use of the former makes sense. I personally think now that Shade/Provoke should be banned, or at most should work for only the first enemy phase.

Pretty much yeah. 1 enemy phase for Provoke, and 1 allied unit alive for Shade could be the choice to make, especially for the prospect skills meta, though neither this variant nor what you suggested makes Ilyana an appealing character to choose for the averages meta (you nuke something once or twice, then go down to a brave attack). Might as well ban it or something.

[Espinosa]

Any idea what Con / Cn is in this game? Is it weight or build? I guess this can be tested by trying to attack a Paladin with Largo/Boyd to see if Colossus can activate. If I can figure this out, a list of Cons in the metagame would be easy to make (to know whom Colossus can activate on).