Which FE do you you think was the most well-written?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Theoretically, if the SNES games were remade for the GameCube (or Wii I guess, but the consensus is PoR has the best story) what features would be used to improve the story?

support and additional conversations?

For example Aless and everyone in gen 2 not named Seliph and especially Leif need to have a lot more conversation. Oifey and Shanan should also be more relevant, especially the later since he's a freaking King

Of course with the way FE4 is set up, there's an issue that the game goes down into FE13 horrendous support, because everyone can marry anyone.

As for FE5, honestly you can't really do much without doing even more retcon because the storyline is set in such a way that only Leif is really relevant at all.

Surprisingly the best course of action IMO would be to give a Shadow Dragon treatment to FE5, e.g. add some extra stages to give develop some of the casts here and there, and add some more conversatios, and yes I am being serious with this, which is weird considering SD's reputation of being bland.

As a sidenote while some of FE12 support convo are pretty decent, I think they tried too hard to give convo to everyone, not to mention MU being an eyesore

Edited November 13, 2013 by Eradicator Boner

[Baldrick]

@eradicator, lack of characterisation isn't really a limitation of the SNES though.

I think the reason SD is called bland is because its plot and enemy types are mostly unchanged from the NES version, the lack of supports and the graphics. What little development they had was pretty good.

[amadeuscho]

The SNES was more limited than the N64, but that does not mean the SNES was unable to convey narrative as well as the N64 could have. There are practical differences, but as far as telling a story, if we regress into hardware limitations as being narrative limitations, roguelikes and text adventures of yore ought to be pretty laughable, yet many deliver their own charm.

If you'd like a bare-bones example, just check out Radical Dreamers on the Super Famicom.

Hmmm... Well that's just the way I look at it. I think a text based game is a different genre so I wouldn't really compare it.

But since the games came out much later in the SNES life cycle, I can understand why other people wouldn't have that opinion

Theoretically, if the SNES games were remade for the GameCube (or Wii I guess, but the consensus is PoR has the best story) what features would be used to improve the story?

The main thing they could theoretically improve the story would be a large storage space for the game.

In terms of narrative techniques developed since the SNES days, cutscenes and FMV would immerse players more into the game. There could be more room for support conversations so more characters could be developed.

[Rehab]

Theoretically, if the SNES games were remade for the GameCube (or Wii I guess, but the consensus is PoR has the best story) what features would be used to improve the story?

Creating more of it

[Jotari]

I wouldn't imagine scripting would have a huge effect on memory that would limit a story in anyway. However I have heard that roughly a quarter of the script of Final Fantasy IV (most notable Golbez's backstory which they expanded upon in the DS remake) had to be axed because of hardware limitations so maybe the SNES did limit creative potential. Another thing to consider however is that even back in 1995/1996, games were only just beginning to be a medium where story was actually an important factor. Many RPGs had standard plots back then and outside of RPGs and text based adventures, a proper scripted story line in a video game was almost unheard of in standard genres.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Jotari

[Celice]

I wouldn't imagine scripting would have a huge effect on memory that would limit a story in anyway. However I have heard that roughly a quarter of the script of Final Fantasy IV (most notable Golbez's backstory which they expanded upon in the DS remake) had to be axed because of hardware limitations so maybe the SNES did limit creative potential. Another thing to consider however is that even back in 1995/1996, games were only just beginning to be a medium where story was actually an important factor. Many RPGs had standard plots back then and outside of RPGs and text based adventures, a proper scripted story line in a video game was almost unheard of in standard genres.

FFIV, Secret of Mana, and Chrono Trigger all began as the same development project; I would suggest that most of what was cut wasn't necessarily due to hardware limitations but to a recarving and new production as the game split into different products altogether. We should also consider how expensive it was to manufacture the cartridges, as that more memory was a steep jump in production costs. The SNES architecture itself isn't necessarily responsible for the cutting for profit :/

http://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-iv-secret-of-mana-and-chrono-trigger-had-a-connection/

I think you should also, if contextualizing game narrative and design to the mid 90s, not limit yourself to a console audience but look towards the more expanded computer front of game design :/

Edited November 14, 2013 by Celice

[Jotari]

Really, FFIV and Chrono Trigger were made together? But Chrono Trigger has references and cameos to Final Fantasy VI. It was also released like four or five years later. Guess Square just had so many awesome things going back then they wanted to get as many games out there as possible. I'll have a read of that article later, thanks for linking it.

[Just call me AL]

fess has a better plot than fe7 by leaps and bounds tho

Except for the fact that the Jehanna sub arc and Eirika mode!Lyon are the only GOOD parts of FE8's story. Everything else is just meh.

[Dark Sage]

You forgot the parts where Orson and Selena and Caellach are onscreen.

FE8 also has generally better writing.

[Chiki]

FE9 by a clear mile. But if FE4 was remade with a better and more detailed script with more character development then FE4 would probably be one of the best written video games of all time, imo.

[ZemZem]

Except for the fact that the Jehanna sub arc and Eirika mode!Lyon are the only GOOD parts of FE8's story. Everything else is just meh.

You forgot the parts where Orson and Selena and Caellach are onscreen.FE8 also has generally better writing.

What Jack Frost said. Also Knoll's character, Lyon as a WHOLE, Innes's role in the story, and L'Arachel's role in the story are just a few things that make FE8's writing interesting.

[General Banzai]

Except for the fact that the Jehanna sub arc and Eirika mode!Lyon are the only GOOD parts of FE8's story. Everything else is just meh.

hahahahahahah

hahahahaha

haha

[Axie]

The only meh parts of FE8's story are the two ship chapters in Ephraim's story and Riev.

[-Cynthia-]

I find some of FE8's beginning chapters a little dull (too many bandits) and the ending comes rather abruptly. I suppose there isn't much wrong with FE8's story but it's just kind of...generic or something.

Edited November 14, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[General Banzai]

I find some of FE8's beginning chapters a little dull (too many bandits) and the ending comes rather abruptly. I suppose there isn't much wrong with FE8's story but it's just kind of...generic or something.

2 bandit chapters is on the better end of the bandit chapters in FE scale

FE7 has like fifty, PoR has three

also the story is gothic and awesome and has compelling villains and compelling supporting characters and a bunch of interesting situational chapter-by-chapter stories rather than simply "here's the next castle we're going to conquer"

Edited November 14, 2013 by General Banzai

[-Cynthia-]

2 bandit chapters too many. I didn't like the bandit chapters in FE9 either...FE has really made me tired of bandits in general.

[Aizenberg]

4. no contest

[Just call me AL]

2 bandit chapters is on the better end of the bandit chapters in FE scale

FE7 has like fifty, PoR has three

@bolded: Talk about a blatant exaggeration. I mean, seriously. How does 6-7 (1-2, IF you skip Lyn's story.) even equate to 50?

also the story is gothic and awesome

I honestly don't see what's so "awesome" or "gothic" about a Macguffin Hunt that pretty much makes up most of the story. Not to mention, the perspective differences were unnecessary, and leave several questions unanswered. (Like for instance, how does Ephraim get through Grado without a medic at the least? Or how does Eirika get her hands on Excalibur and Audhulma when Joshua's not in Jehanna?) If the game actually let you have a party set-up similar to FE2, it would be another story in regards to perspective. But even then, I see literally no reason to make Lyon's situation with Fomortiis either him thinking he's controlling Fomortiis's powers in Ephraim's story, or have him display the classic Demonic Possession in Eirika's story. (The latter of which, I felt was the more well-presented of the two.) And not to mention the lack of insight we actually get from Magvel. I don't exactly lie when I say the story is one of the reasons why I see FE8 as a plastic dog among a pack of real dogs.

and has compelling villains

Selena, Glen, Orson and EirStory!Lyon, okay. Caellach and Carlyle, maybe. But what, pray tell, is so special about Reiv , Valter, Fomorrtiis, or the mooks? Keep in mind that one's pretty much a watered down Gharnef, one's a bloodthirsty psych whose personality justification is a cop-out and whose efforts actually make you wonder why he wasn't fired after the first failure, one's a Generic Doomsday Villain, and the rest are forgettable with one exception whose popularity is very much undeserved.

and compelling supporting characters

That's debatable. I for starters only see relatively few of those. (Neimi for instance wasn't anything too memorable.)

and a bunch of interesting situational chapter-by-chapter stories rather than simply "here's the next castle we're going to conquer"

I can certainly name a few FEs that actually have that. As for the first example, I'll say this: Guess which one did it first.

[ZemZem]

Valter gets some back story of you bothered to read Cormag and Duessel's supports.

And if you don't think Ephraim's Route!Lyon is interesting, I suggest you look into the story again and point out positive aspects of FE8 for once instead of only bringing up the negative.

[Celice]

Valter gets some back story of you bothered to read Cormag and Duessel's supports.

And if you don't think Ephraim's Route!Lyon is interesting, I suggest you look into the story again and point out positive aspects of FE8 for once instead of only bringing up the negative.

I think Valter was also featured in that Gamestop/Gamepro/somethingsomething sponsored comic before the game came out in the US. Dunno if you'd consider that canon, though.

[General Banzai]

@bolded: Talk about a blatant exaggeration. I mean, seriously. How does 6-7 (1-2, IF you skip Lyn's story.) even equate to 50?

whoa really, you mean stating a number that was more chapters than are actually in the game was an exaggeration???

I honestly don't see what's so "awesome" or "gothic" about a Macguffin Hunt that pretty much makes up most of the story. Not to mention, the perspective differences were unnecessary, and leave several questions unanswered. (Like for instance, how does Ephraim get through Grado without a medic at the least? Or how does Eirika get her hands on Excalibur and Audhulma when Joshua's not in Jehanna?) If the game actually let you have a party set-up similar to FE2, it would be another story in regards to perspective. But even then, I see literally no reason to make Lyon's situation with Fomortiis either him thinking he's controlling Fomortiis's powers in Ephraim's story, or have him display the classic Demonic Possession in Eirika's story. (The latter of which, I felt was the more well-presented of the two.) And not to mention the lack of insight we actually get from Magvel. I don't exactly lie when I say the story is one of the reasons why I see FE8 as a plastic dog among a pack of real dogs.

condensing the story into the words "macguffin hunt" means nothing and is not in any way a critique of the story

i assume eirika gets audhulma etc the same way she does if joshuas dead when you do it in her mode

also did you see the amount of vulneraries eph and crew were packing, they had a fucking pharmacy in their inventories

Selena, Glen, Orson and EirStory!Lyon, okay. Caellach and Carlyle, maybe. But what, pray tell, is so special about Reiv , Valter, Fomorrtiis, or the mooks? Keep in mind that one's pretty much a watered down Gharnef, one's a bloodthirsty psych whose personality justification is a cop-out and whose efforts actually make you wonder why he wasn't fired after the first failure, one's a Generic Doomsday Villain, and the rest are forgettable with one exception whose popularity is very much undeserved.

again youre basically talking as if all you did was read a summary of fess's plot rather than actually reading the story

valters dialogue is superb that shit cannot be touched

also possessed lyon, who basically is fomortiis, is also saying some legit sick shit like that whole conceit about turning ephraim into a jester for his court, i mean mmmm so good

That's debatable. I for starters only see relatively few of those. (Neimi for instance wasn't anything too memorable.)

innes

larchy

aka the supporting characters who actually do something in the story

I can certainly name a few FEs that actually have that. As for the first example, I'll say this: Guess which one did it first.

first?

yeah thatd be fess

[Nobody]

Do supports count?

If yes, FE8, if not, FE9.

[BBM]

The entire second part of FE8 wouldn't work if you split up your party into two halves and played both routes at once. It's not just unit recruitment and whatnot, but the whole point is seeing the two different sides of Lyon in the two routes, and seeing how each twin interacts with him and which side of Lyon is brought out. In a way, Lyon is a way better written version of Julius. The villains in general are very well written. Riev is kind of meh, but basically none of the villains in FE9 have any story other than the BK and kind of Ashnard and Petrine but not really. And even then the BK is just this really nebulous enemy in FE9; even after his arc is done you have no idea who he is until FE10.

The FE8 route split is like the best one in the entire franchise, IMO, for how it deals with the story and how playing the other route completes the story in a way neither FE6 nor FE7 match. In those games you can play one route and it stands as a game by itself. Choosing to go Sacae over Ilia in FE6 doesn't leave you with the sense that you're missing anything.

Also, you do know that the Frelian army goes with whichever twin you don't choose right? It's not like Ephraim charges Grado by himself if you go Eir route or Eirika travels to Jehanna by herself if you go Eph route. You just don't see them onscreen when the two parties meet up in C15.

FE9 has a decent story but it's very Ike driven. No other character really matters, and even the ones that get some good development through supports and base convos such as Jill and Lethe have no impact on the storyline. FE8's main characters and some of the supporting ones all get development that's actually relevant and integrated into the story rather than just being on the side- Eirika, Ephraim, Lyon, Joshua, Innes, Cormag, etc.

[Axie]

I mean lol at reading "supporting characters" and using NEIMI as a counterpoint. Every FE has people who don't impact the storyline, the point is that FE8 has more playable characters with an impact than most other FEs. Also: Neimi's one chapter of relevance is one chapter more than most (all?) other sucky early archers. Also x 2: "how did Ephraim get by without a medic" is a hilarious straw to gasp at

About Lyon: the fun thing is that each story portrays a side of him but it's still the same person. He's all of that at the same time and it even makes sense. Your favorite FE villain could never.

[Just call me AL]

Sorry if I'm just bringing up the nagative aspects of FE8. I just feel like it's given more credit than it actually deserves nowadays. (Especially by guys like Genral Shock.) It's a good game, I'll admit. But when compared to other games, I don't feel like it compares.