Prims is Gay Mafia - Game Over

[BBM]

You wake up and see that... nobody is dead? Whoaaa

It is now Day 5. With 4 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch at deadline and 3 to hammer. You have 77 hours and 21 minutes left (12 AM EST on December 5th).

[charlie_]

bah fuck

I had a BPV and it was hit last night. I lied to Eli and said that kirsche was probably clear in attempts to get him to kill kirsche when Refa was really clear based on role. Unfortunately, he killed me instead but I yolo'd and masoned kirsche and he proved Refa was town on role!

##Vote: Elieson

[Zkirsche]

##Vote: Elieson Obvious.

It was fun playing OC again.

[Elieson]

Lol you claim bpv and think that if I had a gun, I would actually shoot you? Srsly sb?

##Vote Refa I guess? Dunno how he's cleared but I haven't heard how.

At least if I'm lynched, town won't lose immediately (im guessing).

[Elieson]

Srsly sb you told me you were bpv and told me you told no one else about it.

Why would I shoot you

[Refa]

i am scum

scum claim!

or not

[Elieson]

Ok awesome refa isnt scum unless hes just tooling us

##Unvote

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sb are you absolutely.certain that you die if you attempt to recruit nontown?

[Elieson]

Dear Life Admiral, you are the Jeju Black Pig.

You are a smallish pig with a smooth coat of black hair and hail from the Korean island of Jeju-do. You have a unique taste quite different from other pigs, which has caused you to be bred rather extensively. However, since you are almost inevitably killed for meat, you have had no time to train yourself in other abilities, preventing you from having a role in addition to your word and vote.

You have been invited into the brick house! You can rest here safely, knowing everybody here is not a threat to you or any other pigs.

You are allied with the Federation of Pigs Brick House Pigs. You win when all threats to the Federation of Pigs Brick House Pigs are eliminated.

As an aside, since members of the faction have themselves had trouble deciphering flavour to realize their alignment, I should probably pre-empt clarifying questions by stating that the Brick House Pigs are not a threat to the town.

ok so SB!Brick House Pig recruited kirsche, and town isn't threatened by the Brick House Pigs, meaning that SB and kirsche are cleared since no one else claimed leader of ?masonry?.

agh I dunno I'm town and have literally no argument for anyone else except refa unless bbm lied or something. I hate being at what is probably final lylo, or this close to it (three times in a row).

##Vote Refa

[Elieson]

Still dunno why on earth SB thinks I'd shoot him when he told me he has a bpv though.

[charlie_]

I lied. Refa is still clear though.

##Unvote

kirsche results

[Refa]

##Vote: kirsche

My only powers are my word and my vote. Have I used them well?

[Zkirsche]

My result confirmed what I already knew: That Elie performed a killing action last night.

I can talk to people more later over IRC/Skype if you need convincing of my alignment, but I have to go again now.

Refa why am I more likely scum over Elieson FYPOV?

[Elieson]

Lol kirsche is lying, I can't do anything including kill. Nice try.

##Unvote

##Vote kirsche

Game over brah

[charlie_]

kirsche why are you town and why is Elieson scum. I don't want "my reports say so", I want a case.

[Zkirsche]

Can you hold on until like midnight-1AM when I get back from uni please.

[BBM]

VOTALS

Kirsche (2): Refa, Elieson

Elieson (1): Kirsche

Not Voting (1): SB

2 to deadline lynch, 3 to hammer, 52 hours and 10 minutes left.

[Zkirsche]

I think it's reasonable enough to say that I am one of the bigger scumhunters in this game. I have constantly been chatting away (admittedly not so much in the past 72 hours because I was busy but I knew who was scum after the Eury lynch so meh) and gathering opinions and being helpful to the town's leaders. Bear in contrast did nothing until he was put up for a lynch and then when he was forgotten about he disappeared into the shadows before subbing out.

Also rolespec-wise I don't believe town can get any weaker. 3 power roles + cult is not very strong considering one of them was useless against Blitz and my role does a decent job of providing useful setup information to the town, and by that I don't mean numbers. I don't know if Refa knows my results so I'll just repeat them here:

N1: A kill was prevented. This told us that PB docced someone or Shinori blocked someone.

N2: Shinori targetted someone not aligned with FoP. If Shinori told us who he targetted this would have proved very strong.

N3: Baldrick's killer was voted for over the course of D3. This clears Refa and narrows down the scum.

N4: Elieson used a killing action. This obviously tells a lot by itself (although I knew Elie was scum after the Eury lynch).

SB said that my role has been/is kinda useless (or weak), but I disagree considering it's given us a lot of useful information. The only reason this role hasn't done as much as it could have is the lack of communication. If PB told life that he was doccing someone Kay wouldn't have been incriminated. If Shinori had told us who he targetted that could've led us to scum. My N3 result essentially caught scum FMPOV considering we had 2 mislynches and N4 is just the icing on the cake.

Typing those up again now and reading them makes it seem to me like my results would be really hard to fake. If PB said he was copping someone then the extra kill wouldn't be explained and I'd be caught; and if Shinori said he was targetting Eury or something then that'd be gg too. My first few results could've easily blown up in my face.

Elie is scum because cockiness ("game over brah") and his BPV defence doesn't really hold up considering I knew about it too so am just as unlikely to shoot him as Elie. Also I think his Refa unvote last page is weak and I don't really know why he did it, which I believe to be scum panicking, not being sure which one of me/Refa he should go for. I've already mentioned how bad his slot was before he subbed in.

I will be fairly busy tomorrow but I should be around earlier than today to answer stuff.

[Elieson]

Oh boy I've been waiting for this. Responses in bold.

I think it's reasonable enough to say that I am one of the bigger scumhunters in this game.

Doesn't matter when the only scum that you hunt is ITP (since Blitz was self aligned and at this point any remaining scum can't be aligned with anyone else, otherwise it'd be game over)

I have constantly been chatting away (admittedly not so much in the past 72 hours because I was busy but I knew who was scum after the Eury lynch so meh) and gathering opinions and being helpful to the town's leaders.

Not really. It sounds like you are assuming that I'm scum via PoE FYPOV, which only holds true if you're town, which there's no guarentee of that from Refa/SB's POV.

And you've been looking protown. Good job, you've been all aboard non-scum wagons. Doesn't necessarily make you town.

Bear in contrast did nothing until he was put up for a lynch and then when he was forgotten about he disappeared into the shadows before subbing out.

So Bear in contrast is null at best.

Also rolespec-wise I don't believe town can get any weaker. 3 power roles + cult is not very strong considering one of them was useless against Blitz and my role does a decent job of providing useful setup information to the town, and by that I don't mean numbers.

So Rolespec wise with a Masonry (which is most certainly not a cult because cult wins against all alliances and masonry wins with town, BBModconfirmed), town looks weak FYPOV. Well, let's look at the flips now, shall we? 12 person setup, and apparently 9+(1):1:1:

6 Vanilla (Oh noes balance what ever shall we do)

3 PRs (including a Jack!Paper, Hook!Shinori, and Track!Baldrick)
1 Mason Recruiter (which creates clears in it of the role itself)

vs

1 Ninja SK
1 ???? Scum/SK

With 2 roles capable of stopping kills entirely, one capable of catching scum, and one capable of clearing town, this game is only as imbalanced as you argue it.

Whatever your role is (Librarian-as told to me by SB earlier today, the first time I've heard of it really) doesn't benefit just town. It benefits the alliance of the person who's role it is. Therefore, your "role" doesn't make you any more town than anyone else, even me!vanilla.

tl;dr Stop trying to play Host-meta, it doesn't actually help your argument.

I don't know if Refa knows my results so I'll just repeat them here:

N1: A kill was prevented. This told us that PB docced someone or Shinori blocked someone.

N2: Shinori targetted someone not aligned with FoP. If Shinori told us who he targetted this would have proved very strong.

N3: Baldrick's killer was voted for over the course of D3. This clears Refa and narrows down the scum.

N4: Elieson used a killing action. This obviously tells a lot by itself (although I knew Elie was scum after the Eury lynch).

N1: Hindsight can be a silly toy to play with. It's easy to act as though a kill were prevented, when no one outed said information regarding who targeted who with what protective roles. Even if this is true, it doesn't make you look more town.

N2: Considering you weren't hooked, and no one claimed hooked, it's easy to assume that a vanilla was hooked, and since there's a bunch of vanilla towns in this game, it's not hard to make this a believable story. Even if this is true, it doesn't make you look more town.

N3: Whether this was fabricated or not, you could probably have BS'd Refa as a clear. If this is accurate information, then Refa is clear, but he was clear anyway.

N4: Your role hasn't provided concrete evidence, from what it seems, so this is only as believable as you present it. It makes me look horrible of course, but this doesn't make you town. It just makes you town if I'm not.

SB said that my role has been/is kinda useless (or weak), but I disagree considering it's given us a lot of useful information. The only reason this role hasn't done as much as it could have is the lack of communication. If PB told life that he was doccing someone Kay wouldn't have been incriminated. If Shinori had told us who he targetted that could've led us to scum. My N3 result essentially caught scum FMPOV considering we had 2 mislynches and N4 is just the icing on the cake.

So, your role has given us lots of useful information, that hasn't been useful. Your N4 result is bullshit because your role isn't proven.

Typing those up again now and reading them makes it seem to me like my results would be really hard to fake. If PB said he was copping someone then the extra kill wouldn't be explained and I'd be caught; and if Shinori said he was targetting Eury or something then that'd be gg too. My first few results could've easily blown up in my face.

So even if your role is what you claim it is (Librarian?) saying "it'd be hard to fake my results" still doesn't make them true, and still doesn't make them town.

Elie is scum because cockiness ("game over brah")

Yea, no

and his BPV defence doesn't really hold up considering I knew about it too so am just as unlikely to shoot him as Elie.

First, I wasn't aware of this, and second, how does this make me scum again?

Also I think his Refa unvote last page is weak and I don't really know why he did it, which I believe to be scum panicking, not being sure which one of me/Refa he should go for.

I was under the impression that our leader/mason recruiter, SB, had recruited you, and confirmed you as town. Logically, who else is even voteworthy when the Modconfirmed!Townsiding faction has a claimed recruit by the recruiter? Try harder.

I've already mentioned how bad his slot was before he subbed in.

By how bad my slot was, you mean, how not protown my slot was, pre-sub, right? Because I'm pretty sure you didn't call bearclaw scummy at any point during your argument.

I will be fairly busy tomorrow but I should be around earlier than today to answer stuff.

tl;dr version

Your role isn't proven, and even if it was, it isn't proven town. Your results aren't proven, and just because you've behaved protown doesn't make you town. Look at CYOR. That literally just happened to me. You're banking a lot on that fudged result from N4, and SB/Refa honestly have no concrete reason to believe you.

[Elieson]

Elie is scum because cockiness

I just wanted to quote this again because it's hilarious

[Elieson]

Oh yea, the most important part of all as to your BS-tell.

bah fuck

I had a BPV and it was hit last night. I lied to Eli and said that kirsche was probably clear in attempts to get him to kill kirsche when Refa was really clear based on role. Unfortunately, he killed me instead but I yolo'd and masoned kirsche and he proved Refa was town on role!

##Vote: Elieson

##Vote: Elieson Obvious.

It was fun playing OC again.

My result confirmed what I already knew: That Elie performed a killing action last night.

The 14 hour difference in "Results" announcement. Oh I forgot or it was obvious why I was voting you aren't acceptable answers for why you wouldn't out this sort of thing immediately. Not to mention the fact that SB posted first, meaning that you could've just said "oh yea SB masonized me hurpaderp I'm confirmed town so there's absolutely no point in voting me since I'm confirmed mason". And you're trying to play off my vote on Refa like it's some sort of pathetic attempt at desperation.

This is over. Your performance today has summed up your alignment nicely, and I'll be a cocky son-of-a-bitch and say it again.

Game over, brah

[charlie_]

N1: A kill was prevented. This told us that PB docced someone or Shinori blocked someone.

N2: Shinori targetted someone not aligned with FoP. If Shinori told us who he targetted this would have proved very strong.

N3: Baldrick's killer was voted for over the course of D3. This clears Refa and narrows down the scum.

N4: Elieson used a killing action. This obviously tells a lot by itself (although I knew Elie was scum after the Eury lynch).

The thing is, in hindsight these results could all have been faked.

You would know if your kill failed on night 1, or if you were an SK you might've assumed a second one existed (I probably would have.

On Night 2, it seemed pretty obvious that Shinori targetted me from his last few posts in thread, and it's not like anyone would counterclaim you.

It's easy for scum to claim cop and clear townies, and this is basically a fancier way of doing that.

Your Night 4 result didn't mean anything. tbc in a bit.

[Zkirsche]

Doesn't matter when the only scum that you hunt is ITP (since Blitz was self aligned and at this point any remaining scum can't be aligned with anyone else, otherwise it'd be game over)

"It doesn't matter that you hunted down ITP" what? Also it's not like any of us knew that it'd be two SKs at the start so attempting to hunt mafia then is still pro-town.

Not really. It sounds like you are assuming that I'm scum via PoE FYPOV, which only holds true if you're town, which there's no guarentee of that from Refa/SB's POV.

I guess not, but they know that I'd know you're scum from PoE.

And you've been looking protown. Good job, you've been all aboard non-scum wagons. Doesn't necessarily make you town.

So being protown counts for nothing now because I might be scum faking it. Handwaving why I'm town and then going "Oh hey he's not very pro town guys better lynch" is dumb.

So Bear in contrast is null at best.

Disappearing until you get criticised is scummy, not null.

With 2 roles capable of stopping kills entirely, one capable of catching scum, and one capable of clearing town, this game is only as imbalanced as you argue it.

1 role (PB) can stop up to 1 kill and another (tracker) was completely useless against half of the scum in the game. So the only way to catch Blitz aside from scumhunting is for PB to use his once per game cop or Shinori. Imagine if Shinori died early, that'd mean with even semi-decent play they can coast to victory as they can't be caught. Do you really think that BBM would let something like that happen?

I guess from the point of view of the others, I could be Librarian!SK but then why would I even bother to clear someone who was a potential mislynch, especially with the threat of PoE from Bald/SB clearing people.

N1: Hindsight can be a silly toy to play with. It's easy to act as though a kill were prevented, when no one outed said information regarding who targeted who with what protective roles. Even if this is true, it doesn't make you look more town.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. If you mean how convenient for me that PB didn't mention his target, I didn't know that when I gave lifeclipse my result so I was under threat of getting caught.

N2: Considering you weren't hooked, and no one claimed hooked, it's easy to assume that a vanilla was hooked, and since there's a bunch of vanilla towns in this game, it's not hard to make this a believable story. Even if this is true, it doesn't make you look more town.

If a vanilla was targetted and flipped vanilla town then it's gg for me consdering I said Shinori targetted someone not aligned with FoP.

So, your role has given us lots of useful information, that hasn't been useful.

Very useful FMPOV and still handy from everyone else's. Clearing Refa and revealing a second kill and essentially bringing us to this 1v1 is not useless.

So even if your role is what you claim it is (Librarian?) saying "it'd be hard to fake my results" still doesn't make them true, and still doesn't make them town.

Yes I might be lying in a mafia game, the point is is it likely that I am lying considering the difficulty/risk faking those results bring me?

Yea, no

Yea...yes? Scum often brute forces victories by trying to act all dominating as if the result is obvious, trying to manipulate townies into going with him.

First, I wasn't aware of this, and second, how does this make me scum again?

Your point was that it'd be dumb for you to shoot SB, my point is that that's irrelevant considering it'd be just as dumb for me to do it. It's null at best.

I was under the impression that our leader/mason recruiter, SB, had recruited you, and confirmed you as town. Logically, who else is even voteworthy when the Modconfirmed!Townsiding faction has a claimed recruit by the recruiter?

Noone except Refa, so why did you unvote? Because he jokingly claimed scum? When the only other option is a (supposedly) confirmed clear why unvote at all? Clearly shows that you were panicking under pressure.

SB/Refa honestly have no concrete reason to believe you.

There's very little concrete in mafia, and just because it's not concrete doesn't mean they can't believe it or think "oh it's probably true".

Also, why should they believe you that I'm lying, they have nothing concrete on you either so what makes you more believable than I?

Oh I forgot or it was obvious why I was voting you aren't acceptable answers for why you wouldn't out this sort of thing immediately.

I knew you were scum, and everyone else knew I would think you were scum, the moment we lynched Eury. It slipped my mind to go "Oh yeah guys, the guy that I confirmed to be scum yesterday is still scum" but that isn't scummy.

oh yea SB masonized me hurpaderp I'm confirmed town so there's absolutely no point in voting me since I'm confirmed mason

Are you seriously saying it would have been better if I lied?

You would know if your kill failed on night 1, or if you were an SK you might've assumed a second one existed (I probably would have.

This is true, and by itself I'll admit it wouldn't mean much. But there was still the risk of crossfire, and with the Shinori case, if he hooked Baldrick or claimed to you guys that he hooked a vanilla then suddenly I'm in a 1v1. It wouldn't be unreasonable for SK!me to think that Shinori hooked you or that PB blocked the kill, but there were very real chances that this wouldn't be the case and was there any real need for me to risk that going into D2/3?

Additionally, considering how you told me that you think Elie is town, why would I put myself in a 1v1 with him? If I really wanted to make a clear for you guys I'd have chosen him and not Refa, assuming you would be culting him like he asked you to. In fact, why would I want to make a clear in the first place? N4 admittedly didn't mean much given previous results already doing the same, but that's what happens with semi-random roles like this. If it happened earlier though, it would have been game-changing. I guess it's easy to look back and go "man I wish this was earlier" but this is the hand I was dealt.

[Elieson]

"It doesn't matter that you hunted down ITP" what? Also it's not like any of us knew that it'd be two SKs at the start so attempting to hunt mafia then is still pro-town.

I am referring to the task of hunting by association. Attempting to hunt mafia when you're not sure if a team exists is all neat and dandy, except at this point, there's no way a scumteam exists, which means that you are anti town hunting, which isn't as protown as scumhunting.

I guess not, but they know that I'd know you're scum from PoE.

you mean they knew you would act as though I was scum via poe?

So being protown counts for nothing now because I might be scum faking it. Handwaving why I'm town and then going "Oh hey he's not very pro town guys better lynch" is dumb.

you might be scum faking it just like I might be town not playing as optimally as possible. Arguing that I'm scummy because my slot hasnt done as much doesnt make me scummy, it makes me null.

Disappearing until you get criticised is scummy, not null.

responding to pressure is scummy? Didn't know that.

1 role (PB) can stop up to 1 kill and another (tracker) was completely useless against half of the scum in the game. So the only way to catch Blitz aside from scumhunting is for PB to use his once per game cop or Shinori. Imagine if Shinori died early, that'd mean with even semi-decent play they can coast to victory as they can't be caught. Do you really think that BBM would let something like that happen?

yes because the game includes hunting via claiming and finding scum via scummy behavior, which blitz was a culprit of, as cited by Life before he died (which I think was before you announced "knowing" blitz was not town?)

I guess from the point of view of the others, I could be Librarian!SK but then why would I even bother to clear someone who was a potential mislynch, especially with the threat of PoE from Bald/SB clearing people.

why bother clearing someone? Because it makes you look better in general, to clear people. You didn't clear me, you didn't clear eury either. So there's still mislynch fodder available in way of me, which is all one needs at this point.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. If you mean how convenient for me that PB didn't mention his target, I didn't know that when I gave lifeclipse my result so I was under threat of getting caught.

one, I didn't even know you shared that at the time, and two, it makes you look more believable when you say you are librarian. However, a (scum) alliance cop can get pretty far on clear announcement. You seem to be draging conversation away from the part where I said your role isn't proven town, even if it is what you say it is.

If a vanilla was targetted and flipped vanilla town then it's gg for me consdering I said Shinori targetted someone not aligned with FoP.

once again, ok so your role is More believable. Does this make you town?

Very useful FMPOV and still handy from everyone else's. Clearing Refa and revealing a second kill and essentially bringing us to this 1v1 is not useless.

Yes I might be lying in a mafia game, the point is is it likely that I am lying considering the difficulty/risk faking those results bring me?

Yea...yes? Scum often brute forces victories by trying to act all dominating as if the result is obvious, trying to manipulate townies into going with him.

Your point was that it'd be dumb for you to shoot SB, my point is that that's irrelevant considering it'd be just as dumb for me to do it. It's null at best.

Noone except Refa, so why did you unvote? Because he jokingly claimed scum? When the only other option is a (supposedly) confirmed clear why unvote at all? Clearly shows that you were panicking under pressure.

There's very little concrete in mafia, and just because it's not concrete doesn't mean they can't believe it or think "oh it's probably true".

Also, why should they believe you that I'm lying, they have nothing concrete on you either so what makes you more believable than I?

I knew you were scum, and everyone else knew I would think you were scum, the moment we lynched Eury. It slipped my mind to go "Oh yeah guys, the guy that I confirmed to be scum yesterday is still scum" but that isn't scummy.

Are you seriously saying it would have been better if I lied?

This is true, and by itself I'll admit it wouldn't mean much. But there was still the risk of crossfire, and with the Shinori case, if he hooked Baldrick or claimed to you guys that he hooked a vanilla then suddenly I'm in a 1v1. It wouldn't be unreasonable for SK!me to think that Shinori hooked you or that PB blocked the kill, but there were very real chances that this wouldn't be the case and was there any real need for me to risk that going into D2/3?

Additionally, considering how you told me that you think Elie is town, why would I put myself in a 1v1 with him? If I really wanted to make a clear for you guys I'd have chosen him and not Refa, assuming you would be culting him like he asked you to. In fact, why would I want to make a clear in the first place? N4 admittedly didn't mean much given previous results already doing the same, but that's what happens with semi-random roles like this. If it happened earlier though, it would have been game-changing. I guess it's easy to look back and go "man I wish this was earlier" but this is the hand I was dealt.

[Elieson]

My phone is impossible to respond with, arggg ill reply to the rest in a bit

[Zkirsche]

responding to pressure is scummy? Didn't know that.

Responding to nothing but pressure is scummy.

So there's still mislynch fodder available in way of me, which is all one needs at this point.

I don't think you read what I said properly, so I'll restate:

with the threat of PoE from Bald/SB clearing people.

If SB hadn't idled N3 and recruited you like you asked him to, or recruited Eury, then as SK I would have lost here and now. He even kept saying that he was going to YOLO and "do something risky" implying that he was actually going to cult someone.

You seem to be draging conversation away from the part where I said your role isn't proven town, even if it is what you say it is.

That's because Librarian!SK is a laughable concept. Accusing me of faking my results is understandable, accusing me of being an SK who's benefit is that he gets random setup information is ridiculous when we have a flipped Tracker!SK.

Because I'm not here until like 10PM GMT:

-Handwaving all of my towny actions because "they could be faked" is dumb.

-I still believe that Elie was panicking earlier today with his Refa unvote and revote.

-I would not risk my own life with these results by faking them and Librarian!SK is dumb.

-Bear was about as helpful as Blitz (i.e. not at all) and Elie subbing in does not change that.

-Reread my logs and you'll find that every single opinion I had was genuine, including the desire for you guys to win.

I trust that you will not throw this.