Death: Why do we fear it/other questions.

[Chiki]

telling me that i know what non-existence is doesn't assuage my fear of non-existence. fear of non-existence is rooted in having never experienced non-existence.

I'd honestly tell you that you're being irrational then.

They don't know infinity in the literal sense of infinity

Okay, this is starting to get silly. "Literal" does not mean what you think it means. Literal means:

involving the ordinary or usual meaning of a word

Literally, infinity is an abstract concept involving neverending limits. What you're trying to say is "they don't know what it feels like." I don't know what infinity feels like, but I know what infinity is! I've never had anal sex and I don't know what it feels like, but I know the concept of anal sex. I know it's the feeling of having a penis stuffed in your tight anus, and it's going to hurt. A lot. I know what anal sex is even though I don't know what it feels like. Do I honestly have to explain this to you?

The fact that I can give you a definition of nonexistence is proof of the fact that I know what it is. It's not existing, or not being aware of one's environments in any form. So you won't have any feelings or emotions or thought or anything whatsoever. You simply won't even have a mind.

It sure seems like I know what something is even if I don't know what it feels like.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Chiki

[Lord Raven]

When people said "they dont know what it is" they referred to "not knowing what it feels like." I think most people took it as the latter, so this entire disagreement dealt with you interpreting it as the former.

[eclipse]

I'd honestly tell you that you're being irrational then.

I'm interested to hear why you think dondon's being irrational. I don't see the problem with his statement.

[Phoenix Wright]

olwen your point is moot anyway because your concept of infinity is only one of quite a few. not to mention mathematicians don't even really understand infinity.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Chiki]

When people said "they dont know what it is" they referred to "not knowing what it feels like." I think most people took it as the latter, so this entire disagreement dealt with you interpreting it as the former.

No, it was mostly me trying to explain something to BK. I also think that having conceptual knowledge of something gives you some idea of how it feels like. It feels like the time before you existed. It feels like nothing. A big stretch of nothing before you were born.

I mean, if you were told you had to pick between living for an infinitely long amount of time and being nonexistent, I know which one I'd pick. Even though I have no personal experience with either concepts, and I don't actually know how they feel like, I have some idea of how they feel like. So I'd pick the nonexistent one because I know the infinitely long amount of time would be awful.

It's like knowing the concept of anal sex but never having it. Even if you never have anal sex you know it's a painful, horrible thing to avoid.

I'm interested to hear why you think dondon's being irrational. I don't see the problem with his statement.

I don't think he's being irrational. It's a perfectly normal human reaction to fear nonexistence. But I just think it's not a rational human reaction.

olwen your point is moot anyway because your concept of infinity is one of quite a few. not to mention mathematicians don't even really understand infinity.

Okay, why don't you say that to the thousands of academicians I'm just repeating.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Chiki

[Phoenix Wright]

Okay, why don't you say that to the thousands of academicians I'm just repeating.

they're wrong, plain and simple. the concept of infinity is not well-understood on a concrete level.

[eclipse]

I don't think he's being irrational. It's a perfectly normal human reaction to fear nonexistence. But I just think it's not a rational human reaction.

Part of being human is being irrational, whether it be for a concept (THAT can of worms which I am leaving unopened) or a period of time (source: my thought process if I eat certain things). Anxiety is not rational, yet it is something that I'm pretty sure humans have dealt with across cultures for a very long time. While the fear of death is not rational from a perfect logic standpoint, I have yet to meet someone who is perfectly logical all the time; thus, I have no issue with dondon's sentiments.

[BK-201]

I'd honestly tell you that you're being irrational then.

Okay, this is starting to get silly. "Literal" does not mean what you think it means. Literal means:

Literally, infinity is an abstract concept involving neverending limits. What you're trying to say is "they don't know what it feels like." I don't know what infinity feels like, but I know what infinity is! I've never had anal sex and I don't know what it feels like, but I know the concept of anal sex. I know it's the feeling of having a penis stuffed in your tight anus, and it's going to hurt. A lot. I know what anal sex is even though I don't know what it feels like. Do I honestly have to explain this to you?

The fact that I can give you a definition of nonexistence is proof of the fact that I know what it is. It's not existing, or not being aware of one's environments in any form. So you won't have any feelings or emotions or thought or anything whatsoever. You simply won't even have a mind.

It sure seems like I know what something is even if I don't know what it feels like.

Please, even if you want to debate the meaning of the word literal, at least respond to the actual argument at hand? I'm pretty sure you understand exactly what I'm saying but due to the blurriness of said topic, finding the exact perfect words to use so you won't nitpick to the point of complete distortion is something rather difficult. You understand I mean a literal infinity in the sense of something limitless, not the mathematical concept you chose to tackle.

Also, it seems you have a very hard time grasping the actual argument.

Argument: Even if we know what the end result of death is that itself doesn't mean the end result provides us with any meaning.

In the context of a literal infinity, even if we understand it in concept, we can't necessarily visualize it. In the same sense, even if we agree the end result of death is nothingness, we haven't necessarily gotten anything out of knowing the ending.

You continually gesture at nothingness as "a time before you were born" and random meaningless phrases like this. You're still comparing an abstract concept nobody can grasp to another one.

Similarly, you can understand infinity exists as a concept however you want, but you still have nothing to go for in terms of literal infinity (read as something limitless), you can understand there exist limitless things, but to visualize it is something impossible. You can only describe it in the abstract.

[dondon151]

I'd honestly tell you that you're being irrational then.

then you are just plain wrong. fearing something that hasn't been experienced is perfectly rational because chances are that if you picked some random experience from a set of infinite experiences, that random experience will be harmful.

It feels like the time before you existed. It feels like nothing. A big stretch of nothing before you were born.

see the problem here is that you did not have the consciousness to feel anything before you existed, so you cannot expect this statement to mean something. i can't remember what it feels like to have existed only for a year, much less not having existed at all. at least for the former experience, i was in possession of a brain.

It's like knowing the concept of anal sex but never having it. Even if you never have anal sex you know it's a painful, horrible thing to avoid.

everyone with an anus can relate to the concept of anal sex. furthermore, everyone can extrapolate the feeling of anal sex from experience, unless you've had a lifetime of smooth, malleable stools.

Edited December 6, 2013 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

No, it was mostly me trying to explain something to BK. I also think that having conceptual knowledge of something gives you some idea of how it feels like. It feels like the time before you existed. It feels like nothing. A big stretch of nothing before you were born.

And I don't know what that feels like, I just know it happened but have no way to know the feeling. For a more tangible thing - I can conceptualize what a broken bone would feel like, but I still fear it because I have never experienced it so I seriously can't put something tangible to the pain I'd feel from it. I avoid it for that reason.

I mean, if you were told you had to pick between living for an infinitely long amount of time and being nonexistent, I know which one I'd pick. Even though I have no personal experience with either concepts, and I don't actually know how they feel like, I have some idea of how they feel like. So I'd pick the nonexistent one because I know the infinitely long amount of time would be awful.

I don't know if one would be better over the other so I can't say I agree or disagree with this statement. It's your personal preference, but if I were given the choice I'd shit my pants because I haven't experienced what either entails.

It's like knowing the concept of anal sex but never having it. Even if you never have anal sex you know it's a painful, horrible thing to avoid.

Terrible analogy because there are people that think this before they experience it, and their experiences can either make them like it or make them hate it. Which is kind of the point.

[dondon151]

And I don't know what that feels like, I just know it happened but have no way to know the feeling. For a more tangible thing - I can conceptualize what a broken bone would feel like, but I still fear it because I have never experienced it so I seriously can't put something tangible to the pain I'd feel from it. I avoid it for that reason.

but you have experienced the sensation of physical pain before, and you know with pretty high certainty that breaking a bone leads to physical pain, so this makes perfect sense. i'd say that the closest sensation to nonexistence would be a dreamless sleep, but since one can't remember or sense the experience at all, then the sensation of nonexistence is out of reach of human comprehension.

[Chiki]

Please, even if you want to debate the meaning of the word literal,

Debate? I just copy pasted the meaning of the word from a dictionary. There's nothing to debate.

You understand I mean a literal infinity in the sense of something limitless

Huh?

Also, it seems you have a very hard time grasping the actual argument.

Argument: Even if we know what the end result of death is that itself doesn't mean the end result provides us with any meaning.

First of all, and less importantly, an argument has a set of premises and a conclusion and a certain logical form. I'm not sure how a claim is an argument.

More importantly, I already proved it provides us some meaning.

I mean, if you were told you had to pick between living for an infinitely long amount of time and being nonexistent, I know which one I'd pick. Even though I have no personal experience with either concepts, and I don't actually know how they feel like, I have some idea of how they feel like. So I'd pick the nonexistent one because I know the infinitely long amount of time would be awful.

even if we agree the end result of death is nothingness, we haven't necessarily gotten anything out of knowing the ending.

Of course we do. We get the italicized part. We get some form of knowledge which allows us to choose between living a nonexistent life and living an infinitely long life. I know which one most people would choose. This is just uncontroversial. No one in their right mind is going to deny that the knowledge of the concept allows us some form of knowledge in terms of experience.

then you are just plain wrong. fearing something that hasn't been experienced is perfectly rational because chances are that if you picked some random experience from a set of infinite experiences, that random experience will be harmful.

I think we have a very good understanding of what we will experience, though, much like experiencing anal sex. We know it'll hurt to try anal sex. Similarly being nonexistent will be like sleeping dreamlessly, or the time before you were conceived, or during an operation. I think it's something we experience to a certain extent everyday. You can disagree with that, but I don't think the time prior to my conception is much different to dreamless sleep.

Let's clarify. We don't have direct experience of having no experience (obviously). But we have indirect experience (I'm just gonna call it this out of a lack of better words) due to having no experience in between the two episodes. For example, someone before and after surgery has indirect experience of nonexistence because they know that there is some episode of nonexistence in between these two episodes.

see the problem here is that you did not have the consciousness to feel anything before you existed, so you cannot expect this statement to mean something. i can't remember what it feels like to have existed only for a year, much less not having existed at all. at least for the former experience, i was in possession of a brain.

everyone with an anus can relate to the concept of anal sex. furthermore, everyone can extrapolate the feeling of anal sex from experience, unless you've had a lifetime of smooth, malleable stools.

Like I said earlier, I think dreamless sleep/anaesthesia is as similar to death as constipation is to anal sex.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Chiki

[Lord Raven]

I for one would hate it if I had to spend an eternity feeling a sense of sleep/anesthesia based on my limited experiences, if I were to word my argument in a way you'd understand

[BK-201]

Huh?

First of all, and less importantly, an argument has a set of premises and a conclusion and a certain logical form. I'm not sure how a claim is an argument.

More importantly, I already proved it provides us some meaning.

I mean, if you were told you had to pick between living for an infinitely long amount of time and being nonexistent, I know which one I'd pick. Even though I have no personal experience with either concepts, and I don't actually know how they feel like, I have some idea of how they feel like. So I'd pick the nonexistent one because I know the infinitely long amount of time would be awful.

Of course we do. We get the italicized part. We get some form of knowledge which allows us to choose between living a nonexistent life and living an infinitely long life. I know which one most people would choose. This is just uncontroversial. No one in their right mind is going to deny that the knowledge of the concept allows us some form of knowledge in terms of experience.

I think we have a very good understanding of what we will experience, though, much like experiencing anal sex. We know it'll hurt to try anal sex. Similarly being nonexistent will be like sleeping dreamlessly, or the time before you were conceived, or during an operation. I think it's something we experience to a certain extent everyday. You can disagree with that, but I don't think the time prior to my conception is much different to dreamless sleep.

Let's clarify. We don't have direct experience of having no experience (obviously). But we have indirect experience (I'm just gonna call it this out of a lack of better words) due to having no experience in between the two episodes. For example, someone before and after surgery has indirect experience of nonexistence because they know that there is some episode of nonexistence in between these two episodes.

Like I said earlier, I think dreamless sleep/anaesthesia is as similar to death as constipation is to anal sex.

There are more uses of the word infinity than the mathematical concept and we don't know infinity from the perspective of limitlessness. We can conceptualize limitless but we can't ever pinpoint it.

Premises: We don't know anything meaningful about the nothingness post death.

Therefore: We don't actually know anything about after death other than our state, not what our state entails.

This is an argument because you've made a counterclaim and if we're going to play your favorite game of pulling things out of the dictionary, an argument is: "An exchange of diverging or opposite views".

You can claim that answer is correct but in all honesty, I have no idea which I'd prefer in the end. Also, your foundation for such an answer could simply be that life overall becomes a negative thing to yourself on its own. You aren't contrasting the two options so much as defaulting to one because you assume the other would go to crap. I could come to the same conclusion absent the idea that death has an end state so you really haven't gotten anything from the conclusion that death is nothingness.

Not all concepts give us concrete understanding of experience. We will never have experience in visualizing infinity simply by knowing it as a concept.

Someone already debunked your arguments on anal sex. And no, I don't experience it because I'm unconscious. It's the same way if you have amnesia you no longer have certain experiences. Just because you went on a roller coaster once in a time lost to amnesia does not mean you can claim you still know what a roller coaster is like on the basis of experience. In the same vein, my experiences with non existence are completely meaningless to me.

We don't have indirect experience that we remember. If you know what nothingness is like you're lying, simple as that.

[Chiki]

I for one would hate it if I had to spend an eternity feeling a sense of sleep/anesthesia based on my limited experiences, if I were to word my argument in a way you'd understand

So you're admitting I'm right? Because you basically just admitted that you have some limited indirect experience of dreamless sleep. If you were trying to make a counterargument this was not the way to go.

There are more uses of the word infinity than the mathematical concept and we don't know infinity from the perspective of limitlessness. We can conceptualize limitless but we can't ever pinpoint it.

Ok. What's the point of this again? This has nothing to do with the meaning of the word literally (it means something like by definition) and you getting the meaning of the word literally wrong.

Premises: We don't know anything meaningful about the nothingness post death.

Therefore: We don't actually know anything about after death other than our state, not what our state entails.

Me, Lord Raven and dondon even admitted that we know it kinda feels like eternal dreamless sleep, so don't mind if I reject your premise. Even the people who are trying to argue against me think we have some idea of what it feels like.

You can claim that answer is correct but in all honesty, I have no idea which I'd prefer in the end. Also, your foundation for such an answer could simply be that life overall becomes a negative thing to yourself on its own. You aren't contrasting the two options so much as defaulting to one because you assume the other would go to crap. I could come to the same conclusion absent the idea that death has an end state so you really haven't gotten anything from the conclusion that death is nothingness.

Huh?

Not all concepts give us concrete understanding of experience. We will never have experience in visualizing infinity simply by knowing it as a concept.

I never said it gave us a "concrete" understanding of it. I simply said it gave some idea of it. We don't know what infinity feels like exactly, and we will never know, but we have a really good idea of how it feels like. Hint: it's never going to end.

Someone already debunked your arguments on anal sex. And no, I don't experience it because I'm unconscious. It's the same way if you have amnesia you no longer have certain experiences. Just because you went on a roller coaster once in a time lost to amnesia does not mean you can claim you still know what a roller coaster is like on the basis of experience. In the same vein, my experiences with non existence are completely meaningless to me.

We don't have indirect experience that we remember. If you know what nothingness is like you're lying, simple as that.

If by debunked, you mean made a post worth ignoring, then sure.

Lol, indirect experience is by definition experience that you don't remember. It's experience that you don't experience directly, but you have some idea of it. So for example, if someone tells you anal sex hurts, you have an indirect experience of what anal sex feels like. Similarly you have indirect experience of what death feels like because you feel there's some "missing link" in between the two episodes in which one is conscious. Death feels exactly like that "missing link." We obviously have some idea of how it feels like, and people have already admitted it, and most people will admit it because it's just so stupid to think we don't have any idea whatsoever on what it feels like when we sleep everyday.

[BK-201]

Ok. What's the point of this again? This has nothing to do with the meaning of the word literally (it means something like by definition) and you getting the meaning of the word literally wrong.

Me, Lord Raven and dondon even admitted that we know it kinda feels like eternal dreamless sleep, so don't mind if I reject your premise. Even the people who are trying to argue against me think we have some idea of what it feels like.

Huh?

I never said it gave us a "concrete" understanding of it. I simply said it gave some idea of it. We don't know what infinity feels like exactly, and we will never know, but we have a really good idea of how it feels like. Hint: it's never going to end.

If by debunked, you mean made a post worth ignoring, then sure.

Lol, indirect experience is by definition experience that you don't remember. It's experience that you don't experience directly, but you have some idea of it. So for example, if someone tells you anal sex hurts, you have an indirect experience of what anal sex feels like. Similarly you have indirect experience of what death feels like because you feel there's some "missing link" in between the two episodes in which one is conscious. Death feels exactly like that "missing link." We obviously have some idea of how it feels like, and people have already admitted it, and most people will admit it because it's just so stupid to think we don't have any idea whatsoever on what it feels like when we sleep everyday.

I've adjusted the definition of choice for infinity in terms of what I'm using (words have multiple definitions), and therefore my use of literal was proper. Still not responding to the argument.

How about no? Nobody said they know what the experience is like. They just said there exist things similar but surprise: We have no real understanding of these similar experiences what a surprise. Just for reference:

Dondon: "but since one can't remember or sense the experience at all, then the sensation of nonexistence is out of reach of human comprehension."

Lord Raven: "And I don't know what that feels like, I just know it happened but have no way to know the feeling."

Note that the sensation and experience is not perceivable, don't mind if I call your rejection of my premise fallacious. Even if we know there is an equatable situation, that itself does not imply we know nothingness. Fact is we still know nothing about nothingness and pretending otherwise is stupid. Also it "feels like eternal sleep" in the same way my wings are hurting right now (I don't have wings).

You state you'd prefer non existence at a certain point but the foundation of that knowledge is not reliant off the understanding of the nature of death. I can reach your conclusion without any understanding of death. You first presuppose nothingness as a neutral existence and then you assume at some point life will be a net negative to you and conclude you'd prefer nothingness. You don't need to understand the nothingness or have any feeling of it. You don't reach the conclusion by contrasting the two simply because you can't contrast the two since you don't understand nothingness.

It gives us an answer to what happens afterwards but nothing we understand. We understand what it is but nothing about it. Or at least nothing meaningful.

Except you don't know what that missing link is like. This is the whole point - you know that there is nothingness, but you don't know what it's like and can't contemplate it. I don't know what it's like to be in a dreamless sleep, it's simply a void that I was once in but not one that I have experienced.

[Lord Raven]

So you're admitting I'm right? Because you basically just admitted that you have some limited indirect experience of dreamless sleep. If you were trying to make a counterargument this was not the way to go.

are you arguing to make a point or to wave your e-dick at the world? If all you're concerned about is being right or wrong then is don't see why anyone should find it worth responding to your sorry ass

Furthermore no I am not admitting you're right, I'm saying if you're right then that would suck. Having that said, none of us have any fucking idea what non existence is actually like and comparing it to anesthesia or dreamless sleep is pointless because no one has any idea what it's actually like to not exist. We can't even say it's akin to that because we have never felt it. dondon debunked my broken bone argument but it's kind of a good point in this case, since there's no actual analogue to nonexistence. Have you ever asked someone what it's like to not exist? Can you describe what it's like from personal experience?

Me, Lord Raven and dondon even admitted that we know it kinda feels like eternal dreamless sleep, so don't mind if I reject your premise. Even the people who are trying to argue against me think we have some idea of what it feels like.

Please don't lie, I never said any such thing.

If by debunked, you mean made a post worth ignoring, then sure.

wow you are the most condescending prick on this board

Lol, indirect experience is by definition experience that you don't remember. It's experience that you don't experience directly, but you have some idea of it. So for example, if someone tells you anal sex hurts, you have an indirect experience of what anal sex feels like. Similarly you have indirect experience of what death feels like because you feel there's some "missing link" in between the two episodes in which one is conscious. Death feels exactly like that "missing link." We obviously have some idea of how it feels like, and people have already admitted it, and most people will admit it because it's just so stupid to think we don't have any idea whatsoever on what it feels like when we sleep everyday.

You say death feels like that but do you know anyone who had died yet somehow told you what it's actually like to have died? Edited December 6, 2013 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

Like I said earlier, I think dreamless sleep/anaesthesia is as similar to death as constipation is to anal sex.

okay, we agree on this point, but the problem is that you still don't know what dreamless sleep or anesthesia feel like, nor does anyone. anesthesia is by definition the lack of sense. physical experience requires observation via sense, so that's out. mental experience requires a consciousness, and people who are under anesthesia or dead lack a consciousness, so that's out. so people who claim to have experienced dreamless sleep or anesthesia are either lying or misunderstanding the notion of experience, since either of those phenomena are impossible to experience. (i hypothesize that what they describe is either coming out of or going into a state of unconsciousness, but not the state itself.)

EDIT: also, i'd hate to extend the anal sex and broken bone analogies even further, but a key difference between falling unconscious and dying is that dying very often is accompanied by pain.

Me, Lord Raven and dondon even admitted that we know it kinda feels like eternal dreamless sleep, so don't mind if I reject your premise. Even the people who are trying to argue against me think we have some idea of what it feels like.

hold up, i totally do not agree with this as you've stated it. the state of consciousness in dreamless sleep is most similar to the state of consciousness when dead, sure. but if i said anything about "feel," it was merely parroting a claim that i disagree with.

Edited December 6, 2013 by dondon151

[Phoenix Wright]

living in 2D

infinity

a physical fourth dimension

death

etc.

these are all completely abstract concepts, meaning we can't understand what they feel like. analogies that try to salvage some link between a concrete feeling and abstract concept fail by the nature of abstraction; you can never derive a concrete feeling from an abstract concept. olwen, please explain to me clearly what it would be like to live in the fourth dimension?

[Lord Raven]

we do technically kinda sorta live in a four dimensional plane if you count the passage of time as the fourth dimension (which it is)

[Randa]

living in 2D

infinity

a physical fourth dimension

death

etc.

these are all completely abstract concepts, meaning we can't understand what they feel like. analogies that try to salvage some link between a concrete feeling and abstract concept fail by the nature of abstraction; you can never derive a concrete feeling from an abstract concept. olwen, please explain to me clearly what it would be like to live in the fourth dimension?

Not to be a kill joy but you can use theoretical mathematics to explain infinity and give it a finite value. It's somewhat ironic. Of course the finite value is an irrational number, but it is a real number.

Perhaps a better example of abstract concepts would be i. The value.

But to the point at hand I believe that we can assign a feeling of what death would be like much in the same fashion we can assign a value to infinity, but the reason why I didn't ask what it felt like to die is because no living person can possibly know that.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Randa

[Phoenix Wright]

we do technically kinda sorta live in a four dimensional plane if you count the passage of time as the fourth dimension (which it is)

that's why i specified a material/physical 4th dimension. like, a euclidean 4D space (3D + time is not euclidean).

Not to be a kill joy but you can use theoretical mathematics to explain infinity and give it a finite value. It's somewhat ironic. Of course the finite value is an irrational number, but it is a real number.

Perhaps a better example of abstract concepts would be i. The value.

But to the point at hand I believe that we can assign a feeling of what death would be like much in the same fashion we can assign a value to infinity, but the reason why I didn't ask what it felt like to die is because no living person can possibly know that.

i've heard no such thing, but then again i'm only an undergrad physics fella. could you point me towards some stuff that proves what you say (wiki and scholarly, please). i find this to be pretty interesting.

i'd agree, we could describe what death feels like, but only in theory. nothing would be certain, contrary to olwen's apparent belief (which is what i'm arguing against).

Edited December 7, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Randa]

that's why i specified a material/physical 4th dimension. like, a euclidean 4D space (3D + time is not euclidean).

i've heard no such thing, but then again i'm only an undergrad physics fella. could you point me towards some stuff that proves what you say (wiki and scholarly, please). i find this to be pretty interesting.

i'd agree, we could describe what death feels like, but only in theory. nothing would be certain, contrary to olwen's apparent belief (which is what i'm arguing against).

I don't exactly where to find this I was at a seminar about the different types of mathematics you could do in college and the guy who was talking used fractals as an example to describe this effect. There is a finite answer(the equation) however another form of that answer is not finite. Fractals are a pretty good example because they can show the infinite repetition of pattern, like the number infinity, defined by a finite thing. Be it equation or number. Edited December 7, 2013 by Randa

[Mister Sunshine Sprinkles]

I guess it's the uncertainty. If there is an afterlife, what would it be like? And if there is really nothing in the end? What does it feel like for a conscious mind to be completely erased?

[Naglfar94]

Eh call me crazy but I don`t fear death either as there is another step after we become ghosts I don`t know how many people here believe in ghosts but from personal experience I`ve seen and heard them as many places I`ve lived have been haunted that is the next step after death we pretty much stay in the same place and remain the same only thing different is we are not in our bodies anymore. So in short the body goes but the spirit forever remains.