*#^! like LUNATICS

[shadowofchaos]

Oh no, if it saves you, that's dandy. What I'm saying is that it's better not to enter a fight where you need to rely on PavGis/DG to survive if you have other options that don't involve that risk.

Well of course, that's the premise I would think everyone would agree upon.

...why I like PavGis in general is it reduces damage in general for regular chapter fights.

Just because you can't max out its activation doesn't mean it has no uses.

I also apologize if I sounded like I was a little straightforward/rude... I just had a Final Exam essay I had to submit 30 minutes ago and the fact that I hated the class might be... seeping into my comments.

Edited December 12, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes, I just finished my exams as well... No hard feelings.

[Chiki]

Oh no, if it saves you, that's dandy. What I'm saying is that it's better not to enter a fight where you need to rely on PavGis/DG to survive if you have other options that don't involve that risk.

Everything has a risk.

It sure is a lot less riskier than Vantage + Vengeance, though. You can heal as much as you like, not be afraid of Longbows and high res enemies.

[Airship Canon]

Honestly I can't tell if you're really crappy at this game, or bad at math, or both. I'm leaning towards both.

Assume Pavise or Aegis has a 65% chance of activation. Assume Dual Guard has a 30% chance of activation with DG+, assume you have like 10% chance to avoid something. All those things add up. I don't know about you but that's pretty reliable if you have any understanding of math. The chance of failure is only 20%. At which point you heal.

I'm actually understating these percentages. They all can be potentially a lot higher.

And it's not like you just go around without even healing your units once. You can use Fortify.

Vantage/Vengeance is not bad but it's overrated because you can't heal your units, you have to stay away from high res users and you have to avoid Longbow users. Pavise and Aegis and DG+ are so much more reliable and better. You can heal and you don't need to worry about those two things.

We can handily conclude that you're honestly pretty bad at this game. I've never seen you give any sort of good advice.

Let's look at this.

90 Hit, 65SKL, 30DG [Your numbers]. 85 Damage [relevant damage value, since living is binary] Inc.

98.10% Hit occurrence [True hit].

30% of the time, it will be Dual'd, and that take off the top since Dual Guard is higher priority than Miss.

Of what remains, 65% of the of non- DG'd Hits will be shielded.

What's left? 25.3645% of procing neither a Dual Guard nor a shield. That's a 25.3645% Chance to die.

The RNG will screw you.

1:4 engagements will have the result of unit death. This is a huge gamble.

On the other hand if that incoming damage is say, 60, any outcome is irrelevant, and neither taking 30 nor 0 is outright beneficial, since healing exists. A living unit is a living unit.

If the incoming damage is <85, it's not a chance of death on that attack, then shaving it does nothing, since any less than 85 damage does not kill, does not accomplish anything.

Making a unit tougher defensively doesn't accomplish anything if it's not actually increasing survivability. A unit at 1 HP performs as well as one at 85.

If you are avoiding all engagements below survival thresholds [where the enemy won't kill], which should be done, then offense > defense, improving offensive capability accomplishes more, even something like STR+2 outperforms Pavise/Aegis or DG+ here.

You've yet to prove anything besides the idea that you take way too many risks. [Of course, you're the one that released a guide to do something that pretty much can only be attempted in Casual since it fails most of the time, and having to start from the beginning at every failure sucks.]

Everything has a risk.

It sure is a lot less riskier than Vantage + Vengeance, though. You can heal as much as you like, not be afraid of Longbows and high res enemies.

There's no risk involved in V/V sweeps outside of positioning and weapon usage monitoring [which is binary, and entirely player-based, in short, unless the player is bad, there's a 0% chance of failing] and 1-2 early RNG checks to get set up for them. There exists only a select few enemies in the game that can possibly survive (and can either be avoided entirely (Apo Wave 2 War Monk Boss), or softened (Thronie/Double Zerkers) [And nothing lives thru LB!MaMU/Lucina VV sweep while rallied. 141 ATK+89ATK(Support) deals 100 to Thronie, and since he's the tankiest enemy in the game...]).

On the other hand, there's very high chances of failure when you're relying on (non-100%) procs for survival. Needing offensive procs for kills is a different thing- since usually you can compensate. Soften targets with Long/double bow fire, pick up slack with other units or dance, there's plenty to secure a kill, but if you're looking at needing a defensive proc to survive and the RNG fails you there, you're dead.

Even the No DLC Vantage Vengance setup for 3rd Gen Male Morgan with Mariabelle!Lucina that someone posted requires that you take a leap of faith against Anna.

Actually, no, there's no "leap of faith" involved (He took one, but it's unnecessary). Anna engages with the Spear if she's poked; she does dethrone to Brave Lance, but once she's attacked, she -will- engage under normal rules with her spear. [Coincidentally, it was you that proved that. Can't remember which video it was, but you smacked Anna's face, then she ran over and speared Olivia]

And she does that even if the target is a Vantage/Vengeance Sweeper.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Airship Canon

[zrand]

This is what I'm currently trying. Any suggestions?

OliviaxChrom!Lucina&Inigo

NoirexMU(+Mag/-Def)!Morgan

DonnelxSully!Kjelle

HenryxSumia!Cynthia

VirionxPanne!Yarne

LibraxLissa!Owain

GregorxMiriel!Laurent

VaikexCherche!Gerome

RickenxMaribelle!Brady

Lon'quxCordelia!Severa

GaiusxTharja!Noire

StahlxNowi!Nah

MU/Noire Sage/Dark Flier

Brady/Kjelle Sage/Dark Flier

Owain/Cynthia Sage/Dark Flier

Laurent/Morgan Sage/Dark Flier

Gerome/Severa Hero/Berserker

Yarne/Lucina Bow Knight/Sniper

Inigo/Nah Manakete dunno what for inigo

[AlphaZero]

Unless you're doing Ricken x Tharja!Noire I say just marry Tharja because with gaius as her father, she will have the same MAG as tharja would. other than that they're solid pairings

Edited December 12, 2013 by AlphaZero

[Chiki]

That's a 25.3645% Chance to die.

Where on earth did the chance to die come from? You're not taking 85 damage per hit, ever. I was evaluating Pavise, Aegis and DG+ generally. If you have half a brain, you won't let your units get into the range of death. You'll heal.

1-2 early RNG checks

We're doing RNG checks now? Lol. So your entire strategy relies on RNG checks on casual mode. Got it. This is coming from the person who said:

[Of course, you're the one that released a guide to do something that pretty much can only be attempted in Casual since it fails most of the time, and having to start from the beginning at every failure sucks.]

That's rich. I got a really good laugh out of the fact that you're accusing me of the same thing you're responsible for.

Man, where did all the good players with good advice go?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chiki

[togan]

This is what I'm currently trying. Any suggestions?

OliviaxChrom!Lucina&Inigo

NoirexMU(+Mag/-Def)!Morgan

DonnelxSully!Kjelle

HenryxSumia!Cynthia

VirionxPanne!Yarne

LibraxLissa!Owain

GregorxMiriel!Laurent

VaikexCherche!Gerome

RickenxMaribelle!Brady

Lon'quxCordelia!Severa

GaiusxTharja!Noire

StahlxNowi!Nah

MU/Noire Sage/Dark Flier

Brady/Kjelle Sage/Dark Flier

Owain/Cynthia Sage/Dark Flier

Laurent/Morgan Sage/Dark Flier

Gerome/Severa Hero/Berserker

Yarne/Lucina Bow Knight/Sniper

Inigo/Nah Manakete dunno what for inigo

HiJacking thread is so NOT COOL zrand...but I'll let it slide,since your relatively new here like me.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Unless you're doing Ricken x Tharja!Noire I say just marry Tharja because with gaius as her father, she will have the same MAG as tharja would. other than that they're solid pairings

Gaius is Noire's best father doh...

Except the avatar, but he doesn't count.

[Czar_Yoshi]

This is what I'm currently trying. Any suggestions?

OliviaxChrom!Lucina&Inigo

NoirexMU(+Mag/-Def)!Morgan

DonnelxSully!Kjelle

HenryxSumia!Cynthia

VirionxPanne!Yarne

LibraxLissa!Owain

GregorxMiriel!Laurent

VaikexCherche!Gerome

RickenxMaribelle!Brady

Lon'quxCordelia!Severa

GaiusxTharja!Noire

StahlxNowi!Nah

MU/Noire Sage/Dark Flier

Brady/Kjelle Sage/Dark Flier

Owain/Cynthia Sage/Dark Flier

Laurent/Morgan Sage/Dark Flier

Gerome/Severa Hero/Berserker

Yarne/Lucina Bow Knight/Sniper

Inigo/Nah Manakete dunno what for inigo

Suggestion. Post this here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=42247 instead because this thread is (supposed to be) about TC's pairings.

[Airship Canon]

Where on earth did the chance to die come from? You're not taking 85 damage per hit, ever. I was evaluating Pavise, Aegis and DG+ generally. If you have half a brain, you won't let your units get into the range of death. You'll heal.

We're doing RNG checks now? Lol. So your entire strategy relies on RNG checks on casual mode. Got it. This is coming from the person who said:

That's rich. I got a really good laugh out of the fact that you're accusing me of the same thing you're responsible for.

Man, where did all the good players with good advice go?

If you're not taking relevant [read: Damage that's greater than your HP] reducing it doesn't do anything, rendering Aegis/Pavise/Dual Guard+ pointless. Living is Binary. A Unit is either alive or dead. There is no in between state, unless you're counting things that are beneficial to the unit. Again, a unit that's at 1 HP is no worse than a unit at 85 [and actually, may be better].

Main game, sure you might have to face a lot of enemies that greatly increase your survival threshold, but these skills don't exist in main game since they're in classes that aren't worth staying in (save for maybe on Frederick) and are L15 skills. Rey's FP3 example is moot since FP3 can have all convos seen and the boss killed reliably on L+ on turn 1, so large wave of threatening foes doesn't happen in Post game. Apo Reg Final Wave is the closest thing, but that map so huge, even there it's still not going to be an overwhelm unless you're trying to solo without an effective strategy. Even then, unless you're again, trying to solo without an effective strategy, offense+positioning=enough dead enemies to where it doesn't matter, and what's left isn't getting to get enough relevant damage in on anything unless positioning on the player's end is bad.

1-2 RNG checks > >50. Are you daft? A 3:4 chance of success > 1:1000+

Simple logic should be enough for your simple brain.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Airship Canon

[zrand]

HiJacking thread is so NOT COOL zrand...but I'll let it slide,since your relatively new here like me.

My bad.

[AlphaZero]

Gaius is Noire's best father doh...

Except the avatar, but he doesn't count.

Very true but for best MAG results the avatar should marry tharja or Ricken should be Noire's father for best MAG which is Female Morgan's equivalent to Ricken!Laurent!Morgan

[Chiki]

If you're not taking relevant [read: Damage that's greater than your HP] reducing it doesn't do anything, rendering Aegis/Pavise/Dual Guard+ pointless. Living is Binary. A Unit is either alive or dead. There is no in between state, unless you're counting things that are beneficial to the unit

Honestly, what you're saying doesn't make much sense here. If you're saying what I think you're saying, that the only relevant damage is damage which is about to kill you, then if you have half a brain, you won't get into that range with smart play, with things like Sol and healing.

Rey's FP3 example is moot since FP3 can have all convos seen and the boss killed reliably on L+ on turn 1, so large wave of threatening foes doesn't happen in Post game.

Completely irrelevant if some boss can be killed reliably on L+ on turn 1. We're comparing two skill sets here, and which skill set is better according to the game mechanics. Which one is more reliable?

1-2 RNG checks > >50. Are you daft? A 3:4 chance of success > 1:1000+

What you're saying doesn't make much sense here. I'd really like it if you could explain what RNG checking is. I think you're trying not to say something in detail because you're scared of it seeming stupid. If you're trying to say that 1-2 RNG checks is more reliable than 50%, then going by your own definition of reliability, that strategy is unreliable.

What's left? 25.3645% of procing neither a Dual Guard nor a shield. That's a 25.3645% Chance to die.

The RNG will screw you.

1:4 engagements will have the result of unit death. This is a huge gamble.

The RNG will screw you too, but you seem to be using RNG checking to avoid that. Which is hilarious because I can do the same. Unless you have a different definition of RNG checking than what I think you do (saving on casual mode and restarting if your unit dies) then you're a hypocrite.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chiki

[Czar_Yoshi]

An RNG check is anytime the outcome of a battle is not 100% guaranteed. If you need a DG not to occur to get the desired outcome of a battle, that's an RNG check. If you need a PavGis activation to occur, or an attack with 1-99% accuracy to hit/miss to get the desired outcome, that's an RNG check. A battle doesn't have an RNG check if there's only one possible outcome or if all outcomes are equally desirable.

[Chiki]

So, the more RNG checks something needs, the less reliable it is, right?

So I would have to show that Vantage + Vengeance has more RNG checks than Pavise, Aegis and DG+.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Chiki

[Czar_Yoshi]

Pretty much. Of course, the likelyhood of passing the RNG check matters too- you could have 3 checks with 90% success each, that'll still be more reliable than one check with 70% success.

As far as I know, VV has one RNG check, and that's when getting knocked to low HP (if a Dual Guard procs, it fails) which succeeds about 70% of the time.

Remember, the PavGis/DG is only a check if you would die without it, because otherwise you still live (though you're often in a better position if it succeeds) as I outlined in my earlier post. It's very possible to make PavGis/DG+ useful with no RNG checks involved as long as you stay out of enemy range on EP and only enter battles with a 0% CoD. They won't have a chance to save you from dying that way, but they keep options open when they proc, save your Staffbots a move, and generally allow you to do more each turn.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[Chiki]

Pretty much. Of course, the likelyhood of passing the RNG check matters too- you could have 3 checks with 90% success each, that'll still be more reliable than one check with 70% success.

As far as I know, VV has one RNG check, and that's when getting knocked to low HP (if a Dual Guard procs, it fails) which succeeds about 70% of the time.

Remember, the PavGis/DG is only a check if you would die without it, because otherwise you still live (though you're often in a better position if it succeeds) as I outlined in my earlier post. It's very possible to make PavGis/DG+ useful with no RNG checks involved as long as you stay out of enemy range on EP and only enter battles with a 0% CoD. They won't have a chance to save you from dying that way, but they keep options open when they proc, save your Staffbots a move, and generally allow you to do more each turn.

But notice that it's not just about RNG checks but it's also about Vantage/Vengeance users failing against Longbows, Mires and high res enemies.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Chiki

[Airship Canon]

But notice that it's not just about RNG checks but it's also about Vantage/Vengeance users failing against Longbows and high res enemies.

Positioning is player skill realm. A player with a brain doesn't fail ever against Longbows. No strategy excuses bad play. There's a 0% chance to die if you're not in range of a Longbow.

High RES... Care to point out a target?

I assure you, there's nothing one of the V/V Sweepers can't actually handle.

Even Throne Berserker, the tankiest enemy in the entire game can be killed with the right one. [Limit Breaker using Male MU + Lucina]

[Chiki]

Positioning is player skill realm. A player with a brain doesn't fail ever against Longbows

So Vantage/Vengeance has to avoid Longbow users because they can't handle them. Thank you.

Thank you for admitting that Vantage/Vengeance can't handle Longbow users. That's exactly what I wanted you to admit.

I assure you, there's nothing one of the V/V Sweepers can't actually handle.

You just admitted that they can't handle Longbow users.

Even Throne Berserker, the tankiest enemy in the entire game can be killed with the right one.

There are War Clerics on the phase before the last one, and I think some Sorcerers and Berserkers have high res as well. I'd have to double check.

Oh, here's something else they can't handle: Mire. There's 5 of them in Secret Route.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Chiki

[Airship Canon]

So Vantage/Vengeance has to avoid Longbow users because they can't handle them. Thank you.

Thank you for admitting that Vantage/Vengeance can't handle Longbow users. That's exactly what I wanted you to admit.

You just admitted that they can't handle Longbow users.

There are War Clerics on the phase before the last one, and I think some Sorcerers and Berserkers have high res as well. I'd have to double check.

Oh, here's something else they can't handle: Mire. There's 5 of them in Secret Route.

Positioning zeroes their threat and Player Phase kills them without fail. Whoops, you're wrong. You've proved nothing.

Care to try again?

War Monk Boss:

58 RES/Aegis+

Let's look at the afformentioned MaMu/Lucina set

60 MAG

+2 Tonic

+5 Tomefaire

+9 Sage Pair Up

+10 Rally Spec/Heart/Mag

86 MAG

+9 Weapon MT

+2 Weapon Rank Bonus

97 ATK

1/85 HP Vengeance: 139 ATK on Lead Unit

139 - 58: 81

81/2: 40/2: 20 [x2]

59 MAG

+2 MAG/All+2

+2 Tonic

+5 Tomefaire

+10 Rallies

78 MAG [!! (78-58 = 20. 20/2 =10 x4 = 40=Kill)]

+9 Weapon MT

+2 Weapon Rank Bonus

89 ATK

89-58 = 31/2 = 15 [x4]

That adds up to 100, which, BTW, is enough to kill Thronie, who's the, bar-none-tankiest foe in the game, also with 58 RES (after Throne Bonus) and Aegis+, he just so happens to also have 99 HP.

Mire?

Targets have 62 MAG

Mire has 10 MT

74 ATK with Mire

51 RES

+10 RES+10

+6 Rallies

+2 Tonic

+7 Sage Pair Up

76 RES-- this is above the nullification threshold.

74 - 76 = Plinked, Besides the fliers don't use Mire if their targets are in close anyways. [Where they get slaughtered]

There is absolutely nothing it can't take, and once active, which is a single check, is never out of the player's hands.

Invinicisorc, the highest RES foe in the entire game?

64 RES, No Aegis+

Lol him.

Let's see that- 10 ATK down on MU, and 12 down on Lucina

129 - 64 = 65/2 = 32

77 - 64 = 13/2 = 6

32 + 6 + 6 + 32 + 6 + 6 = 88 damage = Overkill.

Full power variant?

139 - 64 = 75/2 = 37

89 - 64 = 25/2 = 12

37+12+12+37+12+12 = 122

Hell this dastard wouldn't survive if he had Aegis+.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Airship Canon

[Chiki]

Positioning zeroes their threat and Player Phase kills them without fail.

The fact that you have to specifically position and avoid Longbow users is just proof of the fact that Aegis/Pavise/DG+ is better, because you don't need to resort to such things in the first place with that combo. You consistently keep admitting that you need to run away from Longbow users, which is what I've been trying to get you to admit. You're already doing what I want you to do.

Let's look at the afformentioned MaMu/Lucina set

Apart from spelling "aforementioned" wrong, who said we were discussing Male Avatar x Lucina? We weren't; we were talking about the skill combo in general. You're resorting to lying and cheating as usual. So whatever you have to say from this point on is invalid regardless, but I'd love to see how you're going to rig your numbers in your favor after this point.

+5 Tomefaire

I see you're letting yourself take other skills like Tomefaire for granted. We aren't discussing Male Avatar x Lucina here, so not all Vantage+Vengeance combo users can have this skill. Though, if you can take skills like Tomefaire for granted, then so can I. I'll just feel free to add skills like Sol and that'll just ruin your argument completely.

+10 Rally Spec/Heart/Mag

This is highly impractical. You aren't going to be able to get this all the time, for whatever reason during battle. Notice that you conveniently didn't include Rallies when you calculated the chance for Pavise/Aegis/DG+ activations. As I said earlier, you're resorting to lying and cheating.

That adds up to 100, which, BTW, is enough to kill Thronie,

Maybe for Lucina, but not for most other Vantage + Vengeance combo users.

+10 RES+10

Where does this come from? Girls can't have Res +10... and you can't switch to the Avatar because your Lucina needs to be able to deal with other enemies.

Now I can see you saying something like this: "You can have Avatar deal with the Mire and then have Lucina deal with the other enemies!!!" This is just an admission that Vantage+Vengeance can't deal with both at the same time, whereas Pavise, DG+ and Aegis can, and Sol/Pavise/DG+/Aegis can deal with even more so.

I also notice that you're conveniently ignoring enemies with Aegis+.

Let's see what Vantage+Vengeance has trouble dealing with once again:

1. Aegis+

2. Mire

3. Longbows

4. High res users

I'm afraid the only good arguments for the Vantage+Vengeance side are lying and cheating and making things up.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Chiki

[Czar_Yoshi]

You should have quit while you were ahead. I gave you a perfectly good case for how to make PavGis/DG+ useful, and now this.

There is no setup that can substitute for strategy. None. Not possible.

Galeforcing Longbows is strategy. It's very easy strategy. All it is is walking up to an enemy you'd like to get the first strike on and attacking them before they attack you. You do this every time there's an immobile boss to fight, you do this every time you see a Luna+/Hawkeye enemy (assuming you lack VV), you do this every time you attack someone on player phase, which is silly not to do.

Where does this come from? Girls can't have Res +10... and you can't switch to the Avatar because your Lucina needs to be able to deal with other enemies.

With Avatar x Lucina, Avatar's the one doing the VV'ing on EP and Lucina is hiding behind him DS'ing stuff. Avatar should always be out on EP, and he's male so he has Res+10 and can take care of Mire. And this topic is very much about Avatar x Lucina because they're the best (there's no thresholds Morgan breaks that they can't) and when VV'ing you only need one pair, so you'd be silly to use anyone else.

War Monk Boss:
58 RES/Aegis+

Let's look at the afformentioned MaMu/Lucina set
60 MAG
+2 Tonic
+5 Tomefaire
+9 Sage Pair Up
+10 Rally Spec/Heart/Mag
86 MAG
+9 Weapon MT
+2 Weapon Rank Bonus
97 ATK
1/85 HP Vengeance: 139 ATK on Lead Unit
139 - 58: 81
81/2: 40/2: 20 [x2]

59 MAG
+2 MAG/All+2
+2 Tonic
+5 Tomefaire
+10 Rallies
78 MAG [!! (78-58 = 20. 20/2 =10 x4 = 40=Kill)]
+9 Weapon MT
+2 Weapon Rank Bonus
89 ATK
89-58 = 31/2 = 15 [x4]

That adds up to 100, which, BTW, is enough to kill Thronie, who's the, bar-none-tankiest foe in the game, also with 58 RES (after Throne Bonus) and Aegis+, he just so happens to also have 99 HP.

Now, what was that about him ignoring Aegis+?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[Chiki]

It's too bad your attempt to seem snarky and smart didn't work out. I saw the Aegis+ mention, but an offhand reference to a major problem like Aegis+ is ignoring the problem.

There is no setup that can substitute for strategy. None. Not possible.

Uh, okay?

Galeforcing Longbows is strategy.

We are not discussing Vantage/Vengeance/Galeforce. We are discussing Vantage/Vengeance. Not every unit has Galeforce.

We are not discussing Vantage/Vengeance/Res+10/Galeforce/Tomefaire/All Stats +2/Dragonskin/Rightful King/whatever. We are discussing Vantage/Vengeance and which one is better considered in isolation.

Sure, go ahead and rig your debates and pick the best possible choices when we're simply discussing combos in general here. Or maybe I should make a Sol/Pavise/Aegis/Miracle/Limit Breaker defensive skill set nstead and cheat like you guys are. Hmm.. but I don't wanna sink to your level and be as intellectually dishonest.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Chiki

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well, it's too bad you're stooping to insults. In case you hadn't noticed, I was on your side until you started going off about liars and cheaters, and now I'm not. Coincidence?

No, we're not discussing Vantage+Vengeance on a random unit with no other skills. That won't get you very far, and neither will PavGis on a random unit with nothing else. We're discussing +Mag/-Def Avatar-M x Maribelle!Lucina, a pair built around a VV core that can practically duo Secret Apo with only one RNG check involved. If you want to try Sol/PavGis/Miracle, be my guest. Skills aren't rated on how good they are in a vacuum, they're rated on how much synergy they have with other skills that allows them to break thresholds. In this case, VV can break threshold of ORKO'ing Thronie, the bulkiest enemy in the game, who happens to have Aegis+.