*#^! like LUNATICS

[Airship Canon]

That two damage makes the difference between ORKO'ing the Nightmare Sniper and not doing so, and there are no fliers in Apo that require the extra damage from the bow to ORKO. Berserker also gives +Spd instead of +Def, which is way more useful.

SoC, Bowfaire isn't useless, it's merely outclassed on a pairup Warrior by Axefaire on a pairup Berserker. It has plenty of other uses, namely on lead units.

Exactly

The point here is that BF Warrior is weaker than AF Berserker.

BF Warrior is a joke build with very limited application since it is inferior to AF Berserker.

BF has it's uses elsewhere, like on Snipers and Assassins. Warriors don't use it too often, unless you're going for crazy high damage on single hits, which is novelty at best.

110 ATK is enough firepower to support-kill everything but the Helswath Berserkers [Deals 86 to Throne (Takes 117 ATK to Support kill him), 92 to to Double (114 for them). Kills Tomahawk ones outright.]

Edited December 10, 2013 by Airship Canon

[togan]

Alright guys great points to consider. But I see alot of +stat (slot) being used,isn't Limit Breaker all that's really needed. Aren't there better skills to slot vs "faire"

The way I see it Limit Breaker outclasses all those "faire" type skills by a fair margin...only ALL STATS + 2 might be comparable to LB. Please explain why "faire" is so popular choice...cause I don't see why. Aslo some alternatives to "faire" would be great to help me finalize my LUNATIC "PLAN"

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Faires give +5 to strength/magic, which is good for dealing damage.

You say LB outdoes all of that? Why not both? That's what everyone does.

More damage = Better (For the most part)

[Airship Canon]

Alright guys great points to consider. But I see alot of +stat (slot) being used,isn't Limit Breaker all that's really needed. Aren't there better skills to slot vs "faire"

The way I see it Limit Breaker outclasses all those "faire" type skills by a fair margin...only ALL STATS + 2 might be comparable to LB. Please explain why "faire" is so popular choice...cause I don't see why. Aslo some alternatives to "faire" would be great to help me finalize my LUNATIC "PLAN"

Because those things Stack.

Faires are powerful. They increase ATK by 5, which actually is quite a huge deal. It's 10 Damage on a Brave, and 20 for a support with a Brave, and that's without doubling. [There's also Aggressor which is 10 on PP, and basically at full power, every combat unit pair will have 1 Aggressor-- which is 20/40]

Limit Breaker with a Faire is +15 ATK. This is better than +10, is it not?

Limit, Agg, Faire is +25. Pretty big increase.

You might argue in place for other skills, but really a Faire has way more use than a lot of other skills, and this is especially true in the case of Yarne and Gerome who in every sense are not good units outside of designated support roles, where they don't use actives and certainly not defensive skills.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Another reason is because there's not all that much to run instead (on support units). Procs don't work in the back, the only things that will really help you are things that increase your stats (mostly Str/Mag/Skl) and the Dual+ skills, the best of which is locked to two non-DLC characters. You could use auras (Hex/Anathema/Solidarity/Demoiselle) but with LB and the +Skl offered by Assassins and Sages, the Hit gained from pair up (15 with an S support) as well as +Hit forges, you'll have 100 Hit all the time. The only thing you could gain is +crit, but normally your crit rates on Apo goons are between 0 and 10 and raising them by 10 isn't very useful. It's nice, of course, but not very useful. The +10Avo from Demoiselle doesn't make much of a difference in a map infested with Hawkeye either, if there's a particular foe you want to dodge you're better off using a Breaker (but most of the notable threats have either Hawkeye or 80+ Skl and the only enemy it's likely to make a difference on is Anna (she has only 70 Skl and lacks Hawkeye).

On lead units and non-dedicated supports, you need LB, Galeforce, and then have three slots to do with as you please- either for procs or more damage. I usually use Aggressor, Luna, and Armsthrift, but not everybody likes AT so it's your call.

[Airship Canon]

but most of the notable threats have either Hawkeye or 80+ Skl and the only enemy it's likely to make a difference on is Anna (she has only 70 Skl and lacks Hawkeye).

Just to make a correction:

>=80 SKL and No Hawkeye: Nightmare Sniper (83) [2]

>=70 SKL and No Hawkeye: Warrior Boss (72) [1]; Nightmare Sniper Adds (73) [8]; Mini-Annas (70) [6]; Anna (70) [1]

18 Enemies who lack Hawkeye have 70 or more SKL.

There's quite a few Hawkeye-less enemies who have less than 70. 70 is actually one of the higher SKL values seen in Apoth.

Only 2 enemies have more than 80 SKL.

[togan]

Another reason is because there's not all that much to run instead (on support units). Procs don't work in the back, the only things that will really help you are things that increase your stats (mostly Str/Mag/Skl) and the Dual+ skills, the best of which is locked to two non-DLC characters. You could use auras (Hex/Anathema/Solidarity/Demoiselle) but with LB and the +Skl offered by Assassins and Sages, the Hit gained from pair up (15 with an S support) as well as +Hit forges, you'll have 100 Hit all the time. The only thing you could gain is +crit, but normally your crit rates on Apo goons are between 0 and 10 and raising them by 10 isn't very useful. It's nice, of course, but not very useful. The +10Avo from Demoiselle doesn't make much of a difference in a map infested with Hawkeye either, if there's a particular foe you want to dodge you're better off using a Breaker (but most of the notable threats have either Hawkeye or 80+ Skl and the only enemy it's likely to make a difference on is Anna (she has only 70 Skl and lacks Hawkeye).

On lead units and non-dedicated supports, you need LB, Galeforce, and then have three slots to do with as you please- either for procs or more damage. I usually use Aggressor, Luna, and Armsthrift, but not everybody likes AT so it's your call.

Yeah I see now...sometimes the best offense is the best defense ;)

I still see "faire" skills as just that,only "fair" in usefulness. I will name many other skills that are more useful:

Aether,Ignis,Luna,Astra,Vantage,Armsthrift,Sol,Counter,Galeforce,Vengeance,Lifetaker,Aggressor finally ALL STATS+2

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah I see now...sometimes the best offense is the best defense ;)

I still see "faire" skills as just that,only "fair" in usefulness. I will name many other skills that are more useful:

Aether,Ignis,Luna,Astra,Vantage,Armsthrift,Sol,Counter,Galeforce,Vengeance,Lifetaker,Aggressor finally ALL STATS+2

Aether, Ignis, Luna, Astra, Vantage, Sol, Counter, Vengeance, and Lifetaker don't do anything on a supporting unit (Galeforce doesn't either, but you can switch to use it and then switch back before ending your turn, but dedicated support units (the ones who want Faires the most) happen to be dedicated supports because they lack Galeforce, and thus it's not an option) and Counter doesn't do anything period in Apo, all the enemies are immune to it.

Armsthrift is a convenience (as stated before, I like it) but if you're aiming for maximum performance then you can swap it for another skill that has an effect on combat besides preventing items breaking and interrupting your combos and just spend more time preparing instead.

If you have Galeforce, use it. There are still three skill slot left over for stat boosts.

Regarding the healing skills, in Apo you will most likely have huge amounts of Staffbots on the job so you don't need to waste room on your combatants.

Aggressor is good, why not make the effect even bigger?

I think you may be overrating All+2 a little bit. You generally would use All+2 more like a customizable boost than an all-around one- say your pair is 2 Skl shy of 100% DS, use All+2. Say your pair is 2 Atk shy of a notable ORKO, use All+2. Unless it lets you surpass a useful threshold in some stat, it's just a small all-around boost and doesn't make that much of a difference.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[Airship Canon]

Counter is counter intuitive and doesn't work at all in Apoth. By time you have it, it's worthless for all purposes besides Double Duel, and maybe Streetpass [that's iffy since the AI likes to Range 2 things].

Lifetaker is a novelty skill. Healing Skills are redundant thanks to Staves.

A+2 literally is half as effective as a Faire. What does DEF do for you when you're above the Survival Threshold and below the Negation thresholds? Sure, if A+2 puts you over a SPD or Survival [or if you were running Kellam!/Fred!Nah a Negation Threshold] it might be worth something compared to the appropriate Faire, but most of the time it won't.

Sol is outright bad in Apoth [where it interacts negatively with more important procs], and only nominal in it's use in main-game [unreliable and can get you killed when you're counting on the healing].

You should only run 2 Procs [3 if you have Aether and do not have Limit Breaker] at any one time; Vantage/Vengeance sets are ran WITH Tomefaire almost exclusively.

Aggressor vs. Faire is a debate.

AT is another debate on a skill that is convenience only [it doesn't have combat or map-clearing value].

[togan]

Aether, Ignis, Luna, Astra, Vantage, Sol, Counter, Vengeance, and Lifetaker don't do anything on a supporting unit and Counter doesn't do anything period in Apo, all the enemies are immune to it.

Pardon my newbishness,but Apo = what percentage of the WHOLE GAME,yeah prolly about 5% MAX...I'm talking about entire game usefulness here,not specifically Apotheosis.

[Airship Canon]

Pardon my newbishness,but Apo = what percentage of the WHOLE GAME,yeah prolly about 5% MAX...I'm talking about entire game usefulness here,not specifically Apotheosis.

At the same time, Counter is still bad in main game since it takes rolling thru Warrior [Which, really isn't the best class out there], and then is still counter-intuitive for the player to use, since it relies on repeatedly taking damage. [Not taking huge hits, and then avoiding more damage (Ala Vantage/Vengeance)]

And Sol is something that if you fail a proc when you need that healing you can die. [This is why EPH is handled by Nosferatu, not Sol/Aether.]

And if you don't need that healing, well you could be using the skill slot for better offense rather than pointless self-healing [that is actively denying your healers EXP, BTW.]

A Faire is even more useful in main game, since Limit Breaker doesn't do anything till 1: You have it. 2. You're powering it. Limit Breaker in main game is pointless since you're not at caps yet.

[Czar_Yoshi]

There are 75 maps in the game not counting skirmishes/*pass, so it's 1/75th.

However, once you defeat the 50 normal chapters + Paralogues, it becomes 1/25th. Take out the Golden Pack (it's for grinding), the Scramble pack (it's not meant to be a challenge), and you're left with 3 CoY, 3 LB, 3 SB, 3 RaR, 3 FP, 3 Challenge Pack, and 1 Apo. Now it's 1/19 (about 5%).

The thing is, you don't need anything to walk on all of CoY or LB1/2 and capped stats are sufficient for the rest of LB, SB and RaR. That leaves just Future Past, Challenge Pack, and Apo (which technically has 10 battles in one map). Future Past 3 can be cheesed with Galeforce with a 1-turn boss kill, so take it out of the picture.

The point is that Apo is the standard by which the postgame is measured. Now, if you're talking about the whole maingame then skill usefulness changes around a bit, but there isn't really a maingame if you're grinding (unless you hold all the grinding until you beat all the story chapters).

Edited December 10, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[togan]

Thanks for clearing that up Czar_Yoshi. Now abit off-topic,what level is best for PROMOTION,should I promote once unit reaches LV10 or hold off and grind to MAX LV20? Then there is RECLASS,seems confusing...care to help me out relating to my chosen Parents + Children

PS. I GOOGLE'd and found this *TIDBIT INFO

*On Lunatic

• Promote first Basic Class at 20
• Second Seal Non-Promoting and Advanced Classes between 15 and 20
• Promote further Basic Classes from 10-20, depending on current state of Stat Caps

[Czar_Yoshi]

OK, here's how promotion works. You can Promote at Lv.10+, reclass from base to base at Lv.10+, reclass from promoted to base anytime, reclass from promoted to promoted at 10+, reclass from special to base at Lv.10+, and reclass from special to promoted at Lv.30. So, if you're just farming skills, go until you get the skill you need and then until you have enough levels to reclass.

If you're concerned about exp gain optimization, then you have to take internal levels (ILs) into account. I could write an essay about them, but it's faster if you just go to serenesforest.net/fe13/calculation.html and scroll down to the Internal Level section. This has two impacts on how you should optimally reclass: when to promote and what routes to take when farming skills.

Basically, your units will get the most levels for their exp if they wait to 20 to promote. A promoted unit will gain exp as if they promoted at Lv.20, no matter what their level is when they promoted. Thus, if you care more about stats than skills, promote late, and if you care more about skills than stats, promote early. The exception to this is if a base class character starts capping stats, they won't get much out of their level ups and you're just pouring in exp for no gain. It's your call when to do it, but the good news is that it really doesn't matter on grind.

Now, consider this case: your Avatar is a Mercenary, and you want Luna. Luna is given by Great Knight at Lv.5, but Mercenary can't promote into it. You have two options, both of which require a Master Seal and a Second Seal: either you can change into a Knight/Cavalier and then promote to GK, or you can promote to Hero/Bow Knight, and then change into GK. ILs matter here because changing between promoted classes increases your IL by a lot more than changing between base classes, so your IL will go up much less if you do the Knight/Cav route. However, promoted skills are often more useful (Sol is good for grinding), and if you ever want to go back and get one of the promoted skills you missed it will take more time and increase your IL by more than if you had gotten it now. Again, it's your call if getting that extra skill for less time/energy than it would take to get otherwise is worth putting off getting a more important skill.

[togan]

OK, here's how promotion works. You can Promote at Lv.10+, reclass from base to base at Lv.10+, reclass from promoted to base anytime, reclass from promoted to promoted at 10+, reclass from special to base at Lv.10+, and reclass from special to promoted at Lv.30. So, if you're just farming skills, go until you get the skill you need and then until you have enough levels to reclass.

If you're concerned about exp gain optimization, then you have to take internal levels (ILs) into account. I could write an essay about them, but it's faster if you just go to serenesforest.net/fe13/calculation.html and scroll down to the Internal Level section. This has two impacts on how you should optimally reclass: when to promote and what routes to take when farming skills.

Basically, your units will get the most levels for their exp if they wait to 20 to promote. A promoted unit will gain exp as if they promoted at Lv.20, no matter what their level is when they promoted. Thus, if you care more about stats than skills, promote late, and if you care more about skills than stats, promote early. The exception to this is if a base class character starts capping stats, they won't get much out of their level ups and you're just pouring in exp for no gain. It's your call when to do it, but the good news is that it really doesn't matter on grind.

Now, consider this case: your Avatar is a Mercenary, and you want Luna. Luna is given by Great Knight at Lv.5, but Mercenary can't promote into it. You have two options, both of which require a Master Seal and a Second Seal: either you can change into a Knight/Cavalier and then promote to GK, or you can promote to Hero/Bow Knight, and then change into GK. ILs matter here because changing between promoted classes increases your IL by a lot more than changing between base classes, so your IL will go up much less if you do the Knight/Cav route. However, promoted skills are often more useful (Sol is good for grinding), and if you ever want to go back and get one of the promoted skills you missed it will take more time and increase your IL by more than if you had gotten it now. Again, it's your call if getting that extra skill for less time/energy than it would take to get otherwise is worth putting off getting a more important skill.

Czar_Yoshi, I'm beginning to regret asking that question now...;)

I think since I'm GRINDING I will not put too much thought into when I promote/reclass,just make sure to get skill(s) from class before moving to next.

PS- Are the "kids" different from parents,or is there any unit(s) in particular I should be aware of that need "special" consideration as to when I promote/reclass.

Thanks again for such great help!!!

[Czar_Yoshi]

The kids work exactly like the parents except they inherit part of their parent's stats. The only special consideration units are those in special classes (like Manakete and Taguel) but the only difference with those is you can Second Seal to a promoted class at Lv.30. Bride and Dread Fighter can do this too.

What all that boils down to is that on efficiency/no grind, you need to plan out what order you want to get your skills in, while on grind it doesn't matter and you can do whatever you want (though it'll take a little longer). So it wouldn't hurt to just skim over this aspect on your first playthrough.

EDIT: Actually, there is a consideration. Unless you have two 3ds's and can Streetpass yourself, or are very patient/lucky with the merchants, you have a limited supply of Second Seals until you beat cht.16, or Inigo/Nah's Paralogue.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[Chiki]

Ok, fine. [Actually, no, you're defending a bad skill. But since you want to be an ass, here's why you're wrong.]

First off, this. A unit's either good at killing, a staff/rally bot, or it's a bad unit. [unless it's really good at tanking, which comes down to two forms: Reliable invincibility thru EXTREMELY HIGH DEF values [Read 70+ Before Pair Up/Rallies, which only really happens with Kellam/Frederick Nahs, and the resultant Morgans there of] or complete Avoidance. Or Vantage/Vengeance sets which Defensive Skills hinder, and require magic and killing power.]

As far as Dual Guard+, Pavise, and Aegis go:

First off: None are Reliable. Don't even try to say they are. DG+ is only 10%, BTW, same as Avoid+10, but the highest you're ever getting is 67% and that requires KNM. Sounds nice, till you realize it fails quite frequently, unlike Avoid, which does go to 100%.

Now with that said,

Here's a simple question: Is the incoming damage lethal?

If Yes: You're gambling. You will eventually lose. While the RNG caused it, it was still a tactical error.

If No: Avoiding or lowering it is irrelevant or detrimental even (if you have Vantage, Vengeance or both), since you can heal. Taking 84 damage means nothing- your unit is still alive, and as such can be healed. Only 85+ within a single Enemy Phase is an issue. If you're in a scenario where you can take 85+ damage you're doing something wrong.

As far as taking singular hits goes, you won't need any defensive skills at all to survive.

Survival Thresholds in Secret Apoth, where they're at their highest are in two forms: 1. Easy to hit. 2. Impossible to hit. In the latter case, that's a Sniper who lacks counter, mind you. Sure there's certain enemy [Helswath Berserker] who's survival threshold is more a SPD one than a DEF one [since surviving his normal hit only takes 30 defense, Dancer Olivia can hit that, hell even Maribelle!Lucina!Morgan and her -6 DEF mod can hit that as a Sage, and getting doubled is fatal] Everything else is reachable. Anna's Aether? 48 DEF leaves you alive. Ikeadin's Aether? 58. Celica's Sage? 56 RES. All of them are reachable, so it doesn't matter how much damage you shave beyond that point.

Blocking Ikeadin's Aether when you've got 60 DEF has the same effect as having 89 SPD fighting Anna: Ergo, none.

In game, Pav/Aeg/DG+ is a waste to go get, and the activation rates are even less reliable.

Honestly I can't tell if you're really crappy at this game, or bad at math, or both. I'm leaning towards both.

Assume Pavise or Aegis has a 65% chance of activation. Assume Dual Guard has a 30% chance of activation with DG+, assume you have like 10% chance to avoid something. All those things add up. I don't know about you but that's pretty reliable if you have any understanding of math. The chance of failure is only 20%. At which point you heal.

I'm actually understating these percentages. They all can be potentially a lot higher.

And it's not like you just go around without even healing your units once. You can use Fortify.

Vantage/Vengeance is not bad but it's overrated because you can't heal your units, you have to stay away from high res users and you have to avoid Longbow users. Pavise and Aegis and DG+ are so much more reliable and better. You can heal and you don't need to worry about those two things.

We can handily conclude that you're honestly pretty bad at this game. I've never seen you give any sort of good advice.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chiki

[shadowofchaos]

Honestly I can't tell if you're really crappy at this game, or bad at math, or both. I'm leaning towards both.

Assume Pavise or Aegis has a 65% chance of activation. Assume Dual Guard has a 30% chance of activation with DG+, assume you have like 10% chance to avoid something. All those things add up. I don't know about you but that's pretty reliable if you have any understanding of math. The chance of failure is only 20%. At which point you heal.

And it's not like you just go around without even healing your units once. You can use Fortify.

I'm not exactly the gameplay expert type of Awakening player. I can never win against AC because I'm honestly not good enough at the game, nor care about the details all that much. As I said, both you and Interceptor have your moments when you butt heads against each other, but you generally give advice that is intended to help the player and leave them open to the options rather than "you're stupid for ever thinking this, you should follow my advice", etc.

I was questioning his conduct with his evaluation of the skill and shoving it in everyone's faces as "you suck for thinking it's a good skill".

But if you can criticize him showing the math "why he is right and everyone else is wrong" even though it wasn't even related to the context I was raising, all the more power to you.

Edited December 12, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Chiki]

The funny thing is that they are pretty good skills. Used together they all add up, making them reliable. Alone they're not so good. DG+ needs to be used in conjunction with other defensive skills.

If you want to be arrogant about the game, at least know your stuff.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chiki

[eclipse]

And all the more power to EVERYONE if they can keep it civil.

(really; I'm not in the best of moods, and yelling at people only makes it worse)

[Czar_Yoshi]

Oh dear. Please don't start this again.

I've already explained the situations when PavGis/DG+ can be used safely and effectively, and dodging lethal damage is not one of them.

[Chiki]

Oh dear. Please don't start this again.

I've already explained the situations when PavGis/DG+ can be used safely and effectively, and dodging lethal damage is not one of them.

If one has half a brain they don't need to worry about "lethal damage."

I don't even know what you mean by "avoid lethal damage." By activating dual guard and Pavise more, it's harder for the enemy to kill you. I'd call that "avoiding lethal damage."

Since I started being less active a lot of poor players have been coming on this forum and giving advice...

[Czar_Yoshi]

I mean if the attack would kill you normally and you would survive with a PavGis/DG activation, you're avoiding lethal damage, which is a bad idea because it leaves your fate up to the RNG. Go back and read my post about it on the last page.

[shadowofchaos]

I mean if the attack would kill you normally and you would survive with a PavGis/DG activation, you're avoiding lethal damage, which is a bad idea because it leaves your fate up to the RNG. Go back and read my post about it on the last page.

You do have the tendency of missing the target of one's posts, especially the Bowfaire comment you were referring to with me when I said nothing about that skill.

Chiki is evaluating the PavGis/DG activation referring to reliable ways of surviving as opposed to AC's comment of "Maxing out avoid is superior".

From the way you're phrasing it, PavGis saving you from lethal damage is a sin. From the moment you step on any chapter, including Apotheosis, no matter how reliable your strategy, your skill activations is leaving your fate up to the RNG.

Swarms of enemies in Luna+ in say... Future of Despair 3. Miracle, DG+, Pavise, and Aegis can all save your ass. Your purpose is not to rely on them. But if essentially an unavoidable swarm of enemies needs for you to have a unit to tank with those defensive skills... what the hell can you do?

Even the No DLC Vantage Vengance setup for 3rd Gen Male Morgan with Mariabelle!Lucina that someone posted requires that you take a leap of faith against Anna.

Edited December 12, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Czar_Yoshi]

Oh no, if it saves you, that's dandy. What I'm saying is that it's better not to enter a fight where you need to rely on PavGis/DG to survive if you have other options that don't involve that risk.