about the story...

[Czar_Yoshi]

1) Chrom left Plegia unattended after the war and people thought it was stupid. Well, the Western world left Germany unattended after WW1 and thought the Versailles Treaty would be enough to stop them. They watched Hitler rise to power and still did nothing, because hey, he was fighting communists. Hitler invades Poland and nothing. Only when he decides to focus fire on France, they see the danger of his actions. How can I blame Chrom for ignoring Plegia in such light?

I'd say how can you not blame Chrom in such light. The post-WWI world leaders were doofuses and failed to recognize that they were paving the way for a madman, and does history look fondly upon them for it? No. Chrom hardly deserves laud for doing the exact same thing.

2) Plegia had as much interest in stopping Valm than Chrom did, because if Walhart wins the war, Grima is stopped. Valm was a more immediate threat to Ylisse than Plegia.

Actually, you're arguing that Valm is a more immediate threat to Plegia than Ylisse. But that's from Plegia's point of view- Chrom and the Feroxis had no clue about the gemstone stuff or even Validar's plans (which they might have had if they had been paying attention to Plegia like they should have been).

3) Emmeryn's actions make sense because leaving the kingdom unattended would be disastrous for Ylisse's morale.

So would her kicking the bucket, which is evident in Chrom's reaction (which lasted all of one chapter) to her death.

As explained in #2, Plegia was no threat and wanted to remain masquerading as Ylisse's ally because they also wanted to stop Walhart.

I'm not familiar with that reference, but Validar certainly wasn't acting like he was no threat with all the creepy "I am your father" stuff and the other Avatar. If the DLC is to be believed, Chrom is familiar with the stories of past FEs, so why didn't he look at Thracia 776 and wonder if leaving a shady guy to watch his back (in this case, to be the only ruler left in Archanea) was really the best idea?

[BrightBow]

My opinion is that people complain too much about silly things.

1) Chrom left Plegia unattended after the war and people thought it was stupid. Well, the Western world left Germany unattended after WW1 and thought the Versailles Treaty would be enough to stop them. They watched Hitler rise to power and still did nothing, because hey, he was fighting communists. Hitler invades Poland and nothing. Only when he decides to focus fire on France, they see the danger of his actions. How can I blame Chrom for ignoring Plegia in such light? To him and all the others, Validar was dead (killed in Chapter 6). He wouldn't have guessed who Validar was until he met him in person. He knew his appearance but not his name. If a messenger tells him that "a guy named Validar is the new king of Plegia", he wouldn't know who the guy was until he met Validar in person. But we knew who Validar was and, since we're plot-aware, we can see Chrom was stupid, but put yourself in Chrom's shoes for a moment and you'll see things aren't that easy. He was busy with rebuilding Ylisse, his marriage and the pregnancy of his wife.

The thing is that the story never acknowledges Chrom's actions as a mistake. And we are clearly not intended to think that Chrom screwed up either, because when we learn that the Grimleal feed the countries population he never stops to think that he could have paid a bit more attention to the people that helped him to defeat Gangrel.

Which makes either the story crap or Chrom an irresponsible, selfcentered jerkass because even when confronted with past mistakes, he never considers to feel responsible or learn from them.

...which still makes the story crap for me because I do not enjoy following the adventures of this kind of person.

Plus, this is a fictional story. It's not the real world.

People did what they thought was best to the limits of their abilities. They could not benefit from the hindsight we have and now and now it's pointless to cry over spoiled milk anyway.

Awakening is an entirely fictional story with entirely fictional characters. No need to pull any punches on people that don't really exist. If fictional people are praised as heroes and husbandos, they better live up to the title.

Which doesn't mean to never make mistakes but it means making mistakes for a reason. Otherwise, why even have these things in the story?

2) Plegia had as much interest in stopping Valm than Chrom did, because if Walhart wins the war, Grima is stopped. Also, Validar can't do shit with Walhart still in the picture, because Walhart has one of the Fire Emblem gemstones in his possession, so Validar can't perform reverse Awakening and summon Grima even if he managed to steal the Fire Emblem from Chrom. Therefore, Plegia theoretically isn't a threat. They would end up being a threat anyway because that's what the timeline dictates, but realistically, during the Valm arc, Plegia was probably in the weakest position of all the realms. Valm was a more immediate threat to Ylisse than Plegia.

They are still a country with a crushed military and infrastructure and therefore no defense against the kind of bandits that always take advantage of such situations in Fire Emblem games.

Not to mention hungry dark dragons, but that is not an everyday occurrence.

3) Emmeryn's actions make sense because leaving the kingdom unattended would be disastrous for Ylisse's morale. Who cares if Marth successfully fled in a previous game, I'd say he was in the wrong and it only worked for him because he wasn't the king like Emmeryn was. The game makes it sound like, if Emmeryn had fled with Chrom, Plegia would've won the war, because with no Emmeryn sacrifice, Plegia's army remains rallied around Gangrel and Plegia stands a very realistic chance of winning. Chrom's only chance is relying on something he doesn't know about: the timeline. Since Gangrel's defeat has to happen at some point, Chrom would end up winning the war at some point. But at what cost? It would be a pyrrhic victory and Emmeryn would likely be viewed as the exalt who abandoned her people in the middle of war, because a victory in this scenario would be more Ferox's doing than Ylisse.

And seeing their leader die right in front of them would be good for their morale?

Not to mention that she changed the mind of the Plegian people merely by saying that war is bad and throwing herself of a cliff. That nonsense only worked because the writers said it did.

And didn't that lesson work out well for the Plegian people? They help out Chrom by overthrowing their king and Chrom thanks them by allowing them to be eaten by a dragon.

Edited December 29, 2013 by BrightBow

[Skynstein]

I'd say how can you not blame Chrom in such light. The post-WWI world leaders were doofuses and failed to recognize that they were paving the way for a madman, and does history look fondly upon them for it? No. Chrom hardly deserves laud for doing the exact same thing.

I'm not saying Chrom isn't a bad ruler (he's a good leader but bad ruler and politician, by his own admission! see Chapter 3), but that I don't think the fact he doesn't keep tabs on Plegia is poor writing, which is the point of this thread. History is full of stupid rulers.

Actually, you're arguing that Valm is a more immediate threat to Plegia than Ylisse. But that's from Plegia's point of view- Chrom and the Feroxis had no clue about the gemstone stuff or even Validar's plans (which they might have had if they had been paying attention to Plegia like they should have been).

What I meant is that, between Valm and Plegia, Valm was a higher threat to Ylisse. In a danger scale, both kindgoms were threatened equally, because Validar's plans would never come to fruition and Chrom would've been defeated if he just sat there waiting for Walhart to come to him.

So would her kicking the bucket, which is evident in Chrom's reaction (which lasted all of one chapter) to her death.

Yeah but in such scenario the people of Ylisse would be far more supportive of Chrom, because then he was "officially" going to Ferox to negotiate for reinforcements, not abandoning his country.

I'm not familiar with that reference, but Validar certainly wasn't acting like he was no threat with all the creepy "I am your father" stuff and the other Avatar. If the DLC is to be believed, Chrom is familiar with the stories of past FEs, so why didn't he look at Thracia 776 and wonder if leaving a shady guy to watch his back (in this case, to be the only ruler left in Archanea) was really the best idea?

In the big scheme of things, he wasn't much threatening. His magic probably didn't have enough range to influence the Avatar in Valm, though he did plant the seed of doubt into the Avatar's mind, which caused his headaches. I'd argue Validar's intention with the mental assault on the Avatar was to start a slow process to convince the Avatar to join him. He needed the Avatar to submit to Grima by his own volition, and, at the time of Chapter 13, neither the Avatar's resolve nor Validar's magic were strong enough to make him switch sides. And he didn't have all the gemstones nor the Fire Emblem anyway, so having the Avatar join him would be of no use at that point.

A better question IMO would be, why didn't Grima transform into the dragon as soon as he set foot in the game's timeline... Probably to avoid breaking the timeline, but then Lucina exists and keeps existing despite Grima being slain... I've posted here before that time travel needs rules to work. Awakening doesn't establish rules for time travel, so events involving time travel end up messy.

[ClassyWolf]

I'm not saying Chrom isn't a bad ruler (he's a good leader but bad ruler and politician, by his own admission! see Chapter 3), but that I don't think the fact he doesn't keep tabs on Plegia is poor writing, which is the point of this thread. History is full of stupid rulers.

Okay, people keep saying this so now I just have to ask: define the difference between good leader and good ruler.

Yeah but in such scenario the people of Ylisse would be far more supportive of Chrom, because then he was "officially" going to Ferox to negotiate for reinforcements, not abandoning his country.

Wasn't she supposed to escape to another fort in Ylisse to hide? and when they were once spotted you say they had absolutely no fall back plan or any other possible place she could go into hiding? Chrom can still leave to get reinforcements, but if the enemy has crossed the border and are pretty much knocking at the door of the capital, returning there might not be the smartest move.

In the big scheme of things, he wasn't much threatening. His magic probably didn't have enough range to influence the Avatar in Valm, though he did plant the seed of doubt into the Avatar's mind, which caused his headaches. I'd argue Validar's intention with the mental assault on the Avatar was to start a slow process to convince the Avatar to join him. He needed the Avatar to submit to Grima by his own volition, and, at the time of Chapter 13, neither the Avatar's resolve nor Validar's magic were strong enough to make him switch sides. And he didn't have all the gemstones nor the Fire Emblem anyway, so having the Avatar join him would be of no use at that point.

1. He could've done a better job coming off as less evil

(chapter 13)

Validar

Why do you close your heart to him, Robin?

Robin

V-Validar?

Validar

Have you truly forgotten?

Robin

You were...calling me... Augh! My head! Get out of my mind!

Validar

Heh heh. Such arrogance! You dare take such a tone...with your own father?!

Robin

...My what?

Validar

You are of my flesh, but of sacred blood. You are to serve a glorious purpose! Search deep in your heart. You already know it is your destiny...

Robin

No... Get...out...

Validar

Why do you resist us, Robin? Your rightful place is at my side. Not wasting your time with these doomed servants of Naga! Give yourself to Grima! Let me join your strength to the fell dragon!

he pretty much comes out, anounses: I'm the bad guy, and expects them to do nothing? luckily for him, Chrom and avatar aren't the brightest minds.

2.Why would Validar want to stop them while in Valm, they are doing his dirty work for him.

3. Wasn't the controll thing something that Grima was doing?

[Rapier]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone read the last sentece I wrote in the opening:

Edit: and I should probably also try to stay on topic.

Yes. For instance...

The Avatar actually merging with Grima when you choose Yes. In his final moments, he takes control and kills himself. That way we have a Bad Ending, a Neutral Ending and a Good Ending.

Also, Grima going after them in the chapter before Chrom gets the Exalted Falchion. Why is he just chilling on that volcano island? It could be an Escape chapter similar to FE5's with an invincible Grima approaching and endless mooks.

Or it could be a chapter taking place on Naga's Table, the first mission objective being to lead Chrom to the altar (afterwads, Grima appears), the second being "killing" Avatar!Grima.

[Skynstein]

Okay, people keep saying this so now I just have to ask: define the difference between good leader and good ruler.

He's a good leader on the battlefield in the sense that he's good at inspiring his soldiers, but a bad ruler in the sense of being clueless about politics. He completely failed to use diplomacy against Ferox when he was at their gates, and he's quite rash when dealing with Gangrel's provocations, while Emmeryn was trying to seek a peaceful resolution of the affair. Of course, both enemies couldn't be reasoned with...

These abilities (or lack thereof) are realistic because Chrom wasn't raised to be the exalt and was more of a patrolman for Emmeryn. Gangrel wasn't wrong when he called Chrom her "dog".

Wasn't she supposed to escape to another fort in Ylisse to hide? and when they were once spotted you say they had absolutely no fall back plan or any other possible place she could go into hiding? Chrom can still leave to get reinforcements, but if the enemy has crossed the border and are pretty much knocking at the door of the capital, returning there might not be the smartest move.

What I mean is the following:

Situation #1: Emmeryn stays at the capital. Chrom's reason for going to Ferox isn't to flee, but to seek reinforcements. This had a small chance of success or rather a high chance of failure (as Chrom himself anticipated), but it would look better in the eyes of the people.

Situation #2: Emmeryn flees to Ferox with Chrom. This would ensure her safety, but would be an incredibly selfish act to the Ylissean people and would make her look like a coward. Chrom could be back at Ylisstol with the reinforcements later, but his people would be far less supportive of him. Also, if Emmeryn doesn't die, there's no sacrifice, and the Plegians remain with Gangrel to the end. Would the Plegians win the war then? Possibly. It's implied that Emmeryn's actions were decisive in breaking apart the Plegian army, so I believe the Plegians had the stronger army.

1. He could've done a better job coming off as less evil

Being "evil" and having the power to control the situation aren't the same thing. It's easy to say that, as soon as they found out Validar was Grimleal, they should've tried to crush his plans, but Walhart was a bigger threat at that moment. If Chrom dedicates himself to stop Validar, he could be successful because Plegia was still recovering from the war, but then Walhart mops the floor with him and Ferox and enslaves them all.

Validar isn't as threatening at that point in the story as you're making him to be. He's the mastermind behind the evil plan, but he needed the Fire Emblem, the gemstones and Avatar's body to realize his plan. None of which he had.

2.Why would Validar want to stop them while in Valm, they are doing his dirty work for him.

I agree, but how is that a problem for the story? Ylisse also needed to get rid of Walhart. Chrom had no other choice.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Malebolganone

[Czar_Yoshi]

Emmeryn wasn't supposed to be fleeing to Ferox, she was heading to some "eastern palace" to hide for a bit. She wasn't going to leave Ylisse.

Again, Chrom and co. had no way of knowing how much Validar needed to be able to resurrect Grima. For all they knew, he could have pulled the job while all the other leaders of Archanea were in Valm, taken over the continent, and then smashed the fighting Chrom and Walhart with Grima.

I might as well point out that Grima resurrected anyway without either the stones (Basilio took them) or Avatar (he used future Grima instead) so that whole argument is bogus.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[Skynstein]

Emmeryn wasn't supposed to be fleeing to Ferox, she was heading to some "eastern palace" to hide for a bit. She wasn't going to leave Ylisse.

That was the initial plan, but Chapter 7 happened, so the Plegian forces would know about the secret palace. And Chrom's initial idea was for her to go to Ferox with him. After Chapter 7, if Chrom had his way, she would go with him to Ferox.

Again, Chrom and co. had no way of knowing how much Validar needed to be able to resurrect Grima. For all they knew, he could have pulled the job while all the other leaders of Archanea were in Valm, taken over the continent, and then smashed the fighting Chrom and Walhart with Grima.

Without the Fire Emblem?

I might as well point out that Grima resurrected anyway without either the stones (Basilio took them) or Avatar (he used future Grima instead) so that whole argument is bogus.

That's a hole in the writing, but I think it could be explained by how Validar and Grima possibly wanted the timeline to take its natural course instead of directly interfering in it. Future Grima was Validar's "insurance". Likewise, Lucina could've prevented a lot of the bad events in the game, but she chose not to because she feared what would happen if she did it.

Anyway, I think an explanation for why Grima didn't transform earlier should have surfaced.

As a general opinion on the matter, I don't think Awakening's story is Pulitzer-worthy, but it does make sense to me for the most part. It suffers from being too fast-paced and too focused on the main characters, and that's probably because of IS's choice to create a second generation of characters, which meant they had to create paralogues exclusively to introduce these characters, which robbed space from the main story. It would be cool if Nintendo licensed someone to create short stories to explain the less clear points of the game's story, but they won't do that.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Malebolganone

[ClassyWolf]

That's a hole in the writing, but I think it could be explained by how Validar and Grima possibly wanted the timeline to take its natural course instead of directly interfering in it. Future Grima was Validar's "insurance". Likewise, Lucina could've prevented a lot of the bad events in the game, but she chose not to because she feared what would happen if she did it.

Anyway, I think an explanation for why Grima didn't transform earlier should have surfaced.

doesen't awakening use multiple timelines? I mean that probably why the kids don't dissapear when they have changed the future, but then again why does Grima travel to tht timeline from his own where he has already won?

As a general opinion on the matter, I don't think Awakening's story is Pulitzer-worthy, but it does make sense to me for the most part. It suffers from being too fast-paced and too focused on the main characters, and that's probably because of IS's choice to create a second generation of characters, which meant they had to create paralogues exclusively to introduce these characters, which robbed space from the main story. It would be cool if Nintendo licensed someone to create short stories to explain the less clear points of the game's story, but they won't do that.

At least here is somethin gwe can agree on, the story needed more time to develop.

I would want to say they also needed better writers, but did have some good if you look howw they wrote some of the characters like Virion and Gregor.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Without the Fire Emblem?

Avatar and Chrom were standing right there in Plegia Castle. Validar has his mind control, he could have used it. Or he could have been smart like he claims to be and somehow separated Chrom and Avatar (maybe with one of his headaches) before introducing his doppleganger and then had the doppleganger trick Chrom into giving him the Emblem. Chrom seems like an extremely gullible fellow (he bit hook, line and sinker when told Emmeryn had been captured) and would easily give it to his best buddy under the pretense of protecting it.

[Pikayoshi]

Avatar and Chrom were standing right there in Plegia Castle. Validar has his mind control, he could have used it. Or he could have been smart like he claims to be and somehow separated Chrom and Avatar (maybe with one of his headaches) before introducing his doppleganger and then had the doppleganger trick Chrom into giving him the Emblem. Chrom seems like an extremely gullible fellow (he bit hook, line and sinker when told Emmeryn had been captured) and would easily give it to his best buddy under the pretense of protecting it.

Well Validar would've needed the gemstones to awaken Grima, which Chrom didn't have yet, so that wouldnt have made much sense.

[Czar_Yoshi]

No he didn't. Validar awakened Grima perfectly fine without the gemstones.

[arvilino]

No he didn't. Validar awakened Grima perfectly fine without the gemstones.

Wasn't that after he sacrificed a lot of Plegians to the Dragons Table? The frame of events would be a bit weird if it happened that way.

Edited January 1, 2014 by arvilino

[Skynstein]

No he didn't. Validar awakened Grima perfectly fine without the gemstones.

Was it Validar who awakened Grima, or Grima himself instead took the form of the dragon? I'm inclined to say it was the latter, because they had killed Validar already when Grima transformed.

[RJWalker]

FutureGrima completed the ritual.

???
...You were supposed to choose godhood over your pathetic band of servants. But if you'll not claim the sacrifice laid at the Dragon's Table... I will claim it in your place!

If it is something Avatar could have done, then it wasn't the Future Grima resuming his form but awakening the Present Grima.

[arvilino]

FutureGrima completed the ritual.

If it is something Avatar could have done, then it wasn't the Future Grima resuming his form but awakening the Present Grima.

That's actually not for certain considering the ritual was to join Avatar and Grima, which would have used the Fire Emblem and 5 gems. Future Grima was already bound/one with Grima and could have just been recovered by the Offering/Sacrifices at the Dragon's Table. As shown by the dialogue.

???

I knew if Lucina managed to rewrite history, Grima would never be resurrected. And I, in turn, would cease to exist. So I had to step in, now and again, to keep my future secured. Like when Validar was killed in his attempt to assassinate Emmeryn... But that is the past, now. We have our future past to think of. All that remains is for you to become Grima, as I did. Then you and I will become as one, and we can reclaim my power.

Robin

We are not yet the same?

???

...You were supposed to choose godhood over your pathetic band of servants. But if you'll not claim the sacrifice laid at the Dragon's Table... I will claim it in your place!

Robin

What?!

???

Myeh heh ha ha ha! The fell dragon and I are one! And though my journey through time has diminished my power...the life force here shall renew me!

>Robin runs off, ??? glows bright

It suggests there's a difference between Robin/Avatar becoming one with Grima through the ritual and what Future Grima/Heirophant did by accepting the sacrifice.

Edited January 1, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

I was merely stating that it wasn't Future Grima resuming his true form but a ritual that Avatar could have completed.

[Czar_Yoshi]

According to Validar, present Robin and Grima already are one (evident by the fact that killing Grima almost kills present Robin), just like future Grima. They both have the same powers, the difference is that future Grima acknowledges that he's Grima and is evil. Claiming the sacrifice, as I understand it, simply awakens Grima's powers and unleashes a huge destructive force (the Dragon) on the world. To use Super Paper Mario as an example, think of the Chaos Heart as the giant Dragon and the wielder of the Dark Proginosticus as someone with Grima's Brand.