Inception Mafia

[Parrhesia]

uh. the second kill was claimed by strege. so there goes that.

my brain just hasn't been up to reading things today. my apologies

But there's probably not much chance of that. We've got someone admitted they killed Objection (can't really blame them) and one kill from mafia. Still not impossible they'd pick the same target, or someone got blind-doctored, and it's a possibility we should, you know, not dismiss outright.

I say things for reasons.

[Shinori]

Strege claimed a kill. Oh let me go read important stuff.

[Shinori]

We have a janitor and another role that kills town sided?

[Grace]

@furet: that was more aimed at via because they said there was a unclaimed second kill, which, you know. yeah

[Percivalé]

the idea is mafia want to get rid of third parties too (especially SKs and the like, because they can nightkill mafs) and third party hunting is faux scumhunting that helps mafia look like they're contributing when they're not actually doing it in town's best interests. don't really like your "you must be SK if you want me to stop searching for one" remark, feels really... mmmm.

also wow I'm so sorry I need to actually read the thread I keep missing everything

[Parrhesia]

I'm a redirector, not a driver. You're dumb. And I'm not saying fine, let it happen. I'd much prefer people voted someone else. And 'defending' myself from attacks of "Shinori's inactive and his objection vote sucks and his claim is null and his action was bad" would just be stupid. Why would you tell me to defend myself instead of scum hunt for a better lynch? Your priorities are off. And hopefully you see after I pointed it out how stupid it would be to 'defend' myself against the votes on me and why I say most of the votes on me are poor and weak. Your's isn't much better.

Explain my actions? Which ones? My night action: FIRST OFF LET ME SAY THIS. If I was a scum or a third party redirector would I actually blatantly claim that I tried to use the town vig to kill someone else? IT would more likely be better to fake claim something in that situation like seriously. I did it because I felt Rein was scum and wanted him to die. It's pretty blatantly obvious.

I used the wrong synonym referring to a role I've never heard of in a game I haven't played in two years, I guess you should invalidate everything else I say, too.

I'd also literally forgotten I'd changed my vote to you and was about to snarkily say I hadn't made up my mind until now but yeah lol.

You know what? If you can find another candidate? Great! You've not done that, either.

See, that there's something approaching defence of your actions. I'm still not confident in you, though. But, I mean... if you're mafia, right? You know the other mafia guys. You know if Rein is or is not mafia. If Objection is firing blind, he might hit one of your lads - why not redirect him to someone you know isn't one of your own?

Via, if I genuinely was confident you were an SK, I'd probably have voted you as a result and tried to get others to do the same.

[Parrhesia]

Checking I didn't read the redirect wrong, I'm distracted and feel like I might've. I potentially made myself look foolish.

[Parrhesia]

Actually, yeah. You got Objection, who'd claimed janitor/vigilante (and appears... not to have been a vigilante? or something? it's strange Rein hasn't commented more on the fact that people have tried to have him killed) to attack Rein or shove him in a bin or something, idefk.

It's a plausible town reason, but not confirmed enough for me to really want to change my vote.

[Percivalé]

i really think shinori is town

[Parrhesia]

That's well and good, but not enough for me to change my vote.

[euklyd]

Oh right.

So, I am still just rereading things, since like not a lot of time (and bad priorities and stuff; see below).

So far I've gone through j00 (because I literally couldn't remember a single thing j00 had done) and SB (because someone (I think Refa?) mentioned something I thought was interesting), and I'm not really seeing anything for either.

Also it occurs to me that instead of looking to see if other people have missed things on people who aren't under suspicion I should be reading the top scumspects (Refa and Shinori at a minimum, Kay if I have time).

so basically, I wasted like an hour or so and feel really stupid.

Okay I just checked the time and holy shit that's way more than an hour

Like I know I got home + had dinner late, but it should not already be midnight

pedit - This is really annoying. I've been trying to load pages for like 10 min without results (although some of them just loaded), so I may not be able to get another post up tonight. I'll try waking up early tomorrow, though, if that's the case.

actually I'll probably wake up early anyways, which is probably a bad idea but I won't be able to stop myself

[Shinori]

For the sake of not lynching myself:

##Unvote:

##Vote: Refa

[euklyd]

Okay so I just finished my Shinori re-read. I would not be opposed to a Shinori lynch, even though my earlygame gutread on him was massively townie, since his content seems rather scummy.

Real Content Post™ in a bit as I compose into something readable it from my notes.

As a sidenote I'm really not liking the lots of saying things without explaining why/giving reasons/etc. coming from Via. I don't even know if I think it's scummy because people are saying it's just their meta I think, but I don't like it even so.

anyways post is in the works

[Refa]

@Euklyd- What do you think of me?

Why are all of the lurkers posting more, jeez. I mean it's more helpful for my ISO's but it's going to make this take a helluva lot longer.

[spoiler=Kay]

-Refuses to conform in first post, obvious undercover cop (I kid).

-I think someone saying "you can't call me scummy" for that is fair play in my books, but it could just be a difference of opinion talking (BTW, talking about her case on Prims)

-From her first post, I get the impression that she's just tunneling in on Prims (in such a way that it feels like she's kind of ignoring what's going on besides some stuff from Furet), and calling his reply to Furet (which I thought was good) a strawman comes across as an obvious misrep. Also it feels like she's spending too much time discussing game theory (but that's just a gam-ok I'll stop now).

-Not really bothered by her reply to Prims' criticism though, not reading any scum intent there.

-Considering I was in the position myself (and in past town games too), I can see why town would be frustrated when all of their scumreads are dead.

-OK, nothing individually in her first D2 post is bad necessarily...but it feels like she's just picking single actions that could have scum intent but isn't making an effort to read people as town or scum.

-Also I'm kind of bothered by how she could go into me and Grass tunneling each other and find us both scummy. Like I can see why it might not make either of us good (don't really agree because it helped me read Grass as town, but w/e impartially speaking). But it feels too easy to just leave it as we're both scummy without even saying which of us is worse off or any other specification.

-Agree with what she has to say about Rein waffling though, I didn't really pay much attention to it before (or when I did, wasn't finding it scummy).

-I've played two scum games with Poly before, he's much more likely to go #YOLO as town than he is as scum. This isn't affecting my read on you, just saying is all.

OVERALL: Finding Kay scummy, because it feels like she's just going with the flow more than anything. I mean granted she doesn't really post too much as town but she generally comes up with her own original cases? That's the impression I got anyways.

[spoiler=Rienfleche]

(see what I did there with the spoiler tag, ohohoho Refa, you clever girl)

-Started a counterwagon on me, obvious town. But he referenced a cop report, making him...obvious town, which is not mafia which would make him sc-ok not doing this again

-Not bothered by his Manix case, already talked enough about this so I'll save you the trouble. I mean everyone did agree with the conclusion that came out of it, so I'm guessing noone else is either.

-I don't get why people are bothered by his Parrhesia case. Actually I think this was only scorri (well, and Parrhesia, but that's probably more because of having a case on him) was bothered? I'll have to look into her, but not now, she's not one of my promised rereads!

-I'm reading his inquiring a response from via as towny. Scum doesn't really care about game progression, just surviving and furthering their agenda.

-His response to Prims comes across as upset town. I'd be pretty mad too if someone said that to me.

-Also his logic across kirsche was pretty good. I didn't notice it but came to pretty much the same conclusion myself.

-I dunno, now that I'm looking at the waffling in his final post, it's not bothering me as much after reading all of his other content.

OVERALL: Still reading Rein as town. Sorry if in advance if he ends up being Undercover Cop and we get endgamed because of this, but there are a lot of things from him that I see as townie and only a few that I see as scummy.

[spoiler=Strege]

-Sheeping town leader, must be undercover cop (even though Eurykins was ONE OF UZ) yes I'm going to do one of these for every read get over it.

-Came to the same logic myself regarding his early Shinori suspicion, so obviously not bothered by that. I feel like he did a good job elaborating on it too.

-Same goes for his early Poly case too. And his Eurykins case. And his Furet case. Wow, I'm agreeing a lot with Strege.

-I like how he's asking a lot of questions that aren't directly related to him, that's either the mark of a good townie or scum doing a bad job defending their scumbuddy, and I'm reading it as the former.

-Don't really mind him shooting Objection, but something is bothering me WRT to this. Objection didn't vig anyone yesterday...why was that? I guess scum could have roleblocked him, but I dunno. And if there is an SK running about, they're hardly going to CC now are they (please shoot Strege if you were responsible for the Objection kill though)? I feel like he was in all likelihood roleblocked, although whether or not scum killed him is hard to say considering he'd be an easy mislynch. Ugh too much rolespec, I'll stop now.

OVERALL: Literally the only thing that bothers me about him is his vig shot. But I dunno, maybe there are two vigs roaming about. I say this because literally everything else he's done makes me think that he's town. Could be some bias because of a townread on me, but I feel pretty good about this read actually. Nothing in his posts stood out as scummy at all, so either he's learnt to be the best scum ever since his last game or he's town IMO.

Now would be the time where I would vote Shinori because "him over me" but honestly I'd like to read him again first and see if he's town or not. I already know I'm town, I don't want to get into a situation where the only viable lynch targets are 2 townies AGAIN. :< Also spent less time editing this post because deadlines so sorry if it seems fluffier than usual. I like pillows.

[Refa]

So I know I said I'd reread Manix and Levity but honestly that last one took a lot out of me. I am null at Manix at the moment, but I don't think he's liable to get lynched so that shouldn't be a problem for this day. As for Levity, I'm really gutreading them as town because (and tbf, this is a Manix argument) I really don't see them ATEing as scum, the numerous posts continuously saying "But I am pretty sure Prims is scum" don't really have benefit as scum, and just a gut read honestly. Really though, for her read I'm going to have to buckle down and look at her scum meta because a lot of this does rely on what I think they'd do over objectively towny play. So would not lynch Levity today. OK, with that out of the way I can focus my full attention on rereading Shinori and then giving a more detailed look on the past few pages.

[euklyd]

oh god it's a fucking wall

sorry in advance

Also that took way too long since I was reading more to try and get a bit of context. Anyways.

Shinori - claimed redirector
Had a lot of issues with a tailor claim that I don’t really agree with, but I can’t really fault him for this.
(also lol looking back and commenting)

The emotion behind the response to Strege's criticism (in #65) reads to me like frustrated town, + I don’t really remember scum!Shinori acting anything like that.
The emotion later is still really giving me townvibes, but like I think I’ve played all of one game with scum!Shinori, so meta isn’t a great reason for me to think anything, but it's there nonetheless.

He votes Rein in #65 for still being on Manix (which he says he doesn’t agree with; why does not agreeing with someone = they're scummy?)
I really don’t agree with his Rein push; like if Rein thought Manix was more scummy than anyone else he shouldn’t be swapping his vote.

Also it's basically just echoing Kirsche's stated concern, that then sticks around (and around and around).

Then he continues with this Rein suspicion despite not really having anything stronger when the thing he initially found Rein scummy for was for tunneling Manix (and was a pretty weak "case" to begin with).

#552
Talks about still wanting to lynch Rein for a single not-good post D2?
I don’t like how he says he’d be cool with lynching SB for not liking his “votes or reasonings” without much elaboration (only about comments on Kirsche being meh and he doesn’t like the comments, and without even saying what the comments were or why they were bad).
The scorri vote was really weirdly justified. "D1 vote swap to Eury was too easy + lack of content" seems like a really weak reason to vote someone (although look who’s talking; I obviously have been having some trouble finding good reasons to vote people). But like here I feel like I'm grasping, so I don't really know.


I see the whole redirect claim as slightly town, mostly null; like the role is slightly scummy (which I guess might make it townie in this setup; BUT we don’t know enough about the setup to say, and fakeclaims could be a thing, so rolespec is bad, IMO). Claiming that he tried to get Rein vigged is defensible enough, and if he were mafia it’d make sense to both do it (keep a scumbuddy from possibly dying to a vigshot) and claim it when it looks like you might be lynched.
And then the “if I was mafia would I really do this” just strikes me weirdly.

I’m not thrilled about voting Shinori because the last time I went against a townie gutread of near this magnitude (Boron in Fakeclaim) I was totally wrong and felt really stupid afterwards, but that's not a super great reason not to vote.

PEDIT: Also this sort of happened when I got Bear lynched in CYOR, but that was expected.

For the record when I put quotation marks around things many of them are paraphrases, I think. I may have put in effort to make some of them more accurate.

I was going to revise this for length but it started taking way too long and it's late.

[euklyd]

tl;dr - The continued Rein thing is bad IMO, combined with other poorly justified votes/stuff makes me think Shinori is scummy, but the emotion displayed (at least early on) is making my gut say he’s town and so I'm having second thoughts.

I don't want to drop a vote until I've read Refa's ISO first, I think, but if I don’t have enough time then I’ll probably vote Shinori.

[euklyd]

Refa RVS voted me, is obvscum.

Okay so basically Refa has that whole LAST MINUTE TURBOWAGON thing going for him; I just don't see scum doing that without some sort of major benefit (like say saving the ass of a scumbuddy); to top it off they would have thought they were saving a vig.
of course Shinori and Refa could be scumbuddies and banking on redirecting Objection's kill but yeah right

Grass case seemed fine; don't really see the SB thing; my eyes are starting to glaze over it's late ugh

uh
the "Man, that sounds pretty bastard Euklyd. What's the point of having people of the same alignment if they can't win together? :( " is pinging me weirdly but like that probably doesn't mean much.

WRT lurking - IIRC Refa doesn't lurk this much as scum, and he's had a fair few scumgames that I've seen.

Anyways the big thing that has people annoyed seems to be the empty unvote; I'm not really seeing the scum intent there, since like everyone knows it's ~so bad~, just like turbowagons. Like if Grass flips Cop (not mafia (not town)), then there's maybe something there, but I'm not really seeing it atm.

I mean, like, scum!Refa could be trying to make really obvious bad plays to get people to say "no scum could ever be that stupid" but that seems way too risky for scum.

Anyways I'm not getting anywhere and I'm starting to nod off. I'll try to wake up ahead of deadline tomorrow to do stuff, and just nap later in the day, but it might not work out.

Randomish note: I've been noticing a weird combination of flavorspec+rolespec due to the nature of this game, when we don't really know anything about the roles of the Undercover Cops, or if they have fakeclaims, or anything. The setupspec ought to stop.

[euklyd]

What does it take to lynch? I think Shinori's at either 5 or 6 votes and I don't want to hammer accidentally.

[Refa]

So I know the most pro town thing to do would probably be to reread Shinori first and see if he's really worth a vote (since if I think he is town, we're losing a townie either way, that's not going to help), but man I just want to make some replies. :( This is like the popcorn to srs scumhunting, just give me this guys I'll have my Shinori reread soon and then everyone can be happy. Well except Shinori if I think he's scum.

-Not really bothered by Manix's Via interactions tbh, I don't really get why people are?

-Manix's scorri case bothers me. It feels like he's nitpicking (which I guess he does as town as well, not really what bothers me the most here), but more importantly his lynch priority does not make logical sense from a mafia's (AKA town's) PoV. He'd just spent a lot of the time being bothered by me, how does SB of all people move up above me on his lynch priority? scorri I can at least get because he spent some time hashing it out with her beforehand, but this just looks off to me. Reads as votehopping way too easily, from what I know of town!Manix he tunnels a lot more. Killing my null read though, thanks.

-Also it doesn't help that scorri's reply to that comes across as really honest and well, not undercover cop at the very least.

-OK, I get that she's subbing, but I really do not like people complaining about "Oh, last day was so bad." It does nothing to help town (talking about Boron BTW). Like I don't think it's scummy, just annoying.

-Also I think her thinking scum was on Eury's wagon is bad. OK, I'm not saying everyone on the wagon is town, but her reasoning is just "Well, I thought Eurykins was obvious town day 1, and her wagon was last minute, so there must have been scum on it" without looking at the context. For one, it was a counterwagon to Objection (flipped town), so scum would win either way. Secondly, he was a claimed vig, although I'm thinking scum had a roleblocker so this point probably isn't as strong, but I still don't see why scum would take an active effort to stop him from being lynched?

-Agree with Grassbridger being defensive and emotional, already went over why I still think he's town.

-Pretty sure Euklyd is town too, really. That claim is not a scum claim.

-OK, I know I said I was gutreading them as town, but I don't even remember why Levity is voting me and that bothers me (generally, I find townies tend to be more memorable, although not always, which is actually one of the reasons I was doubting my read on Grassbridger).

-Agree with j00's Manix read.

-Liking SB's defense a lot more than Manix's attack. Like I'm getting ALL the town vibes from that.

-I generally agree with kirsche, except with a different lynch priority and not finding scorri scummy. Like I get that some of her play D1 was objectively not good, but her D2 made me feel a lot better. Also I think she's more...impersonal as scum.

-Agree with Boron's Kay case. Haha, that sounds funny. Kay case.

-Honestly not really bothered by her read on me, those are things that annoyed me too! I don't know if I'm overthinking things and I really have been voting scum for the most part or not, but it's like ugh. It's so bad coming up with a case and then getting second feelings about it after several hours. Probably why my activity has been so lame tbh.

-IMPORTANT: I think more than one person should target Poly tonight, just in case. Preferably someone else with a role that doesn't need to be used elsewhere. Also if Manix and a rolecop target Poly it could screw over the rolecop's read on Poly if he's lying....Ehhhhhh...Whatever, just someone else target him.

Sorry about the wall of text. :\ Anyways lynch priority is Manix > Kay, but gonna read Shinori before I drop down a vote.

[Refa]

It takes over half of the current alive players, dunno what the votals are atm. Give me a moment.

[Grace]

yay dropping more quips and not casebuilding (it's too late for me to casebuild, i need to sleep soon (whether I do is another story))

i really am not a particular fan of refa's "oh i'd go vote shinori, but let me reread him first", because 1) Not Me Over Me is adequate at ~T-6 hours and 2) depending on how refa addresses shinori, which i suspect is looking like "he's null/town" given post tone, can be construed as an attempt to look better if shinori is lynched.

not sure if that's explained well enough, but fire questions if it isn't.

[Grace]

cut

yeah that cements it easily. he's detracting away from what he promises to do in order to do shit that's not as relevant. remind me refa why you had a townread on me D1 and now don't? i'll read the thing in the meantime

[Grace]

WRT lurking - IIRC Refa doesn't lurk this much as scum, and he's had a fair few scumgames that I've seen.

actually he does. fun facts

[euklyd]

Okay 15 people alive should take 8 to lynch.

uh I don't have the mental capacity to read Refa's post with any sort of comprehension atm, but

-IMPORTANT: I think more than one person should target Poly tonight, just in case. Preferably someone else with a role that doesn't need to be used elsewhere. Also if Manix and a rolecop target Poly it could screw over the rolecop's read on Poly if he's lying....Ehhhhhh...Whatever, just someone else target him.

That's not how Poly's role works if I understand it correctly. If Poly and [PLAYER X] target the same person then [PLAYER X] gets Poly's Role PM.

cut by Manix.

uh. Fuck. I'm still reading Shinori as scummier but like now I'm doubting my Refa read at 03:30 and that's a bad place to be.