Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Regarding avoid classes, that's another good point about where difficulty is absolutely going to matter. Avoid skills are awesome up to hard, but on Lunatic they become less good. Still useful, but a lot less reliable. Between skills and forges, Lunatic enemies (come endgame) have +30 hit, and they also have higher skill and luck on top, so probably more like 40 extra hit, which is enough that even avoid based units are regularly facing 50%+ hit rates. Add to that some enemies sporting breakers and it's a serious issue. They do fine until chapter 17 though, when forges and hit+10 comes out en masse. Postgame General doesn't seem good to me. Low move is a killer for a start. They have great STR which is nice, but low SPD and SKL means less reliable procs and they aren't doubling any of the fast enemies, which is a minor hinderance. I would say Generals are probably low tier: movement and Skl/Spd issues being the main reasons. Do note that while Lunatic enemies do eventually get incredible hitrates, their weapons increase in ranks much quicker than in Normal/Hard and less accurate weapons really lowers the gap at the start (iirc some enemies in the first few chapters actually have lower hitrates than on hard). That and Mercenary is a strong starting class in Lunatic(+) and it gives a +Hit/Avo skill that's basically always active on a Sword class with decent Spd. Additionally, in the first few chapters there's much more exp to go around and that IL cap hasn't kicked in yet so you're likely to have a lot more Spd on your main units. Generals: Their Skl isn't great for procs, but it does make a big difference on their hitrate. Generals are good any time you want that 50 Str and care about Lances or useable Skl over Spd. And a fun fact about Villager: their pairup boosts give the most Hit out of any class in the game (+3Skl/Lck). It doesn't matter, but it technically is a perk. Anyhow, tier lists are incredibly subject to what you're doing at the time (difficulty, maingame/postgame, or even what map you're playing), so I'd prefer one in the format that doesn't rank classes/units against eachother and instead focuses on the greatest strengths each class has. But that would be a class/character guide, not a tier list, so oh well. Edited March 11, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Anyhow, tier lists are incredibly subject to what you're doing at the time (difficulty, maingame/postgame, or even what map you're playing), so I'd prefer one in the format that doesn't rank classes/units against eachother and instead focuses on the greatest strengths each class has. But that would be a class/character guide, not a tier list, so oh well. That is an issue with this concept. Sages, sure- they're god-tier because they only are good for everything, but that's just not the case with other classes. Like a thing: Berserkers Berserkers are great support units. It's what they do: 50 STR, Faire, locked to a good weapon type [so their weaponlock doesn't hurt them at all]. Solid Pair Up Bonus [+5/6/7 STR; +3/4/5 SPD]. But... they're horrible lead units. Low Skill is pretty damning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 (abridged) I probably should have mentioned by now that I haven't actually done a Lunatic run, and thus don't really know what I'm talking about… Actually, the latter half of that statement sums up a good deal of what was wrong with anything I was saying. ~___~ Sorry. Do you guys think it'd be a better idea to make a tier list for each difficulty? Maybe a separate thread for in-game tiers might be a good idea, and we can just relegate this one to postgame stuff. I'll be the first to admit this isn't really a thing I have any real knowledge or authority in, I'm just trying to facilitate it. I'm confused. Wouldn't that just make this a regular tier list rather than a class tier list? *shrug* Probably. I'll defer you to the statement I made above. x___X If you have a better idea for how it should be classified, I'm fully open to suggestions (and I mean that in earnest, no sass intended). Regarding Manaketes, I'll add them to postgame medium-tier. I'm not sure about Nowi, but I feel like Tiki (possibly Nowi too though) might be strong enough to justify high tier for in-game manaketes. Thoughts? I figured Zerkers were considered high-tier, but I wanted to be sure first, so I'll add them. Regarding Generals, it's sounding like they're appropriate for postgame mid-tier given what the Czar of Yoshis says. Anyhow, tier lists are incredibly subject to what you're doing at the time (difficulty, maingame/postgame, or even what map you're playing), so I'd prefer one in the format that doesn't rank classes/units against eachother and instead focuses on the greatest strengths each class has. But that would be a class/character guide, not a tier list, so oh well. For what it's worth, I agree with you. I'd actually much rather just see such a guide myself, but I don't have the time/ambition to facilitate such an ambitious project-- just one like this. If anyone else wants to do that, I'd be more than happy to get behind it and repurpose this thread for it unless someone wants to make a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I probably should have mentioned by now that I haven't actually done a Lunatic run, and thus don't really know what I'm talking about… Actually, the latter half of that statement sums up a good deal of what was wrong with anything I was saying. ~___~ Sorry. It's... Different. My advice would be to play just the prologue, whether you can beat it or not you'll get a fairly good idea of what the mode is like. Do you guys think it'd be a better idea to make a tier list for each difficulty? Maybe a separate thread for in-game tiers might be a good idea, and we can just relegate this one to postgame stuff. I'll be the first to admit this isn't really a thing I have any real knowledge or authority in, I'm just trying to facilitate it. Better? Yes. But I'm not sure it would still be enough... For example, I did a Lunatic run a while back with no DLC/Spotpass characters/Dark Mages in which I battled all the Risen that appeared, and a number of strats that should have been terrible from a conventional Lunatic perspective worked out very well. *shrug* Probably. I'll defer you to the statement I made above. x___X If you have a better idea for how it should be classified, I'm fully open to suggestions (and I mean that in earnest, no sass intended). Regarding Manaketes, I'll add them to postgame medium-tier. I'm not sure about Nowi, but I feel like Tiki (possibly Nowi too though) might be strong enough to justify high tier for in-game manaketes. Thoughts? I cleared Secret Apo with a team that was 50% Manaketes (not counting Staffbots) before, so they're certainly useable. Mid is probably good for postgame. Nowi is pretty much invincible on Hard with Gregor, Fred or Avatar as a support, can do well on Lunatic with some care and a Dragonstone+ early on, and struggles a bit without constant favoritism in Lunatic+ (though is nowhere near some characters in terms of difficulty to drag along). But that's Nowi, not Manaketes in general. Tiki is good on Normal, works on Hard if Avatar is free for her (Say'ri works too) but is generally outclassed by Nowi, and on Lunatic(+) is hands down the hardest character in the game to recruit and any utility she may have is offset by her recruitment chapter. I figured Zerkers were considered high-tier, but I wanted to be sure first, so I'll add them. Regarding Generals, it's sounding like they're appropriate for postgame mid-tier given what the Czar of Yoshis says. Well, to be perfectly frank I'd put them in the alternative to Berserker tier. But making a tier for each class isn't very useful... For what it's worth, I agree with you. I'd actually much rather just see such a guide myself, but I don't have the time/ambition to facilitate such an ambitious project-- just one like this. If anyone else wants to do that, I'd be more than happy to get behind it and repurpose this thread for it unless someone wants to make a new one. I'm actually working on such a guide already (just for fun), but progress is slow because I'm also working on stunts for Lunatic+ and Secret Apo and just got Tropical Freeze. If I ever finish it, I might even add a section detailing specific uses for each and every Spotpass character. That would be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 I'm actually working on such a guide already (just for fun), but progress is slow because I'm also working on stunts for Lunatic+ and Secret Apo and just got Tropical Freeze. If I ever finish it, I might even add a section detailing specific uses for each and every Spotpass character. That would be interesting. You could always share it on the forum and get input and stuff, I'm sure people would be happy to contribute and make your job easier. In any case, I guess you could consider this thread sort of an until-then scenario… beheh... So with that, I think I'll try to get this thread back on topic. Current nominations: - Berserkers for high-tier - Generals for mid-tier - Manaketes for in-game high-tier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) For in-game, are we assuming that everyone gets to 20 on their base class and then promotes? Because everyone should go at least 20 unpromoted-> 20 unpromoted -> 20 promoted -> final promoted class. Otherwise they suck. And as is, this is pretty much a character tier list. Also, what difficulty is this on? Edited March 11, 2014 by Potato123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 For in-game, are we assuming that everyone gets to 20 on their base class and then promotes? Because everyone should go at least 20 unpromoted-> 20 unpromoted -> 20 promoted -> final promoted class. Otherwise they suck. And as is, this is pretty much a character tier list. Also, what difficulty is this on? That's really not the only viable promotion path characters can take. Lots prefer to just go 20 U > 20 P > ... and go through various promoted classes, especially since you lack Second Seals early on. Others like Chrom you'd rather go 20 U > 5 P > 20 U > ..., or similar things to pick up a good level 5 promoted skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Does that mean we have to tier every single possible path? Why don't we just tier characters instead? We have villager (assume reclass), but there's differences between donnel's promotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuvarkz Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Because it's problematic to tier children unless we consider optimal setup marriages, and that will create the next Awakening Forum War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 We'll have to tier children here too, so wouldn't it be better to make a character tier so it's more accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMajor Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Might I suggest an HTML table in the OP? (Can you use htmlcode on this forum? w/e) Three columns - Normal/Hard, Luna/Luna+, Postgame Then several rows like "Always Amazing," "Situationally Amazing," "Usable," "Numerous Drawbacks," and "Useless" are these reasonable divisions/distinctions? Edited March 11, 2014 by SeaMajor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 At this point I'm seriously considering removing the in-game tier list and just focusing on the postgame stuff. Seamajor's suggestion is a good plan B for me if I can figure out how to do that, but I'm pretty busy today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I doubt normal html works, but there is a code tag you can use like this. That's done with code and /code in brackets, and makes your font perfectly spaced for everyone so you could make a pseudo-table that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 I decided it's just simpler to cut out the whole in-game tiers business, chiefly for the reason that I don't really know what specifically I'm trying to accomplish, and also because I feel that trying to figure that out is dragging the thread off-topic. So for now, this is just a postgame tiers thread. If you guys like, maybe I'll make an in-game tiers thread later (or someone else can). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolCoolCool Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'd add at least another 2 tiers to allow more distinction. Without too much thought I'd go like: God Tier: Sage, Dark Flier High Tier: Hero, Sniper, Assassin, Berserker (supp) Mid-High Tier: Dark Knight, Bride, Dancer Mid Tier: Paladin, Great Lord, Swordmaster, Warrior, Sorceror, Dread Fighter Low Tier: Bow Knight, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider, Valkyrie, Manakete, Grandmaster, General Trash Tier: Villager, Taguel, Great Knight, Trickster, War Cleric I'm sure a lot of this could be changed though, I don't use the majority of these classes. Also the issue of any flying class making a reasonable rally/staff bot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Valkyrie should be High Tier. Access to the best thing in the game, and Magic usage Falcs should be High Tier for half the same reason as Valkyrie. Except it trades Magic for Flight(which is not that useful other than on maybe Future Past, and Apotheosis in some ways). Falcs are also guaranteed to have GF, so thats a plus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'd add at least another 2 tiers to allow more distinction. Without too much thought I'd go like: God Tier: Sage, Dark Flier High Tier: Hero, Sniper, Assassin, Berserker (supp) Mid-High Tier: Dark Knight, Bride, Dancer Mid Tier: Paladin, Great Lord, Swordmaster, Warrior, Sorceror, Dread Fighter Low Tier: Bow Knight, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider, Valkyrie, Manakete, Grandmaster, General Trash Tier: Villager, Taguel, Great Knight, Trickster, War Cleric I'm sure a lot of this could be changed though, I don't use the majority of these classes. Also the issue of any flying class making a reasonable rally/staff bot. ... What? Unless we're taking skills into account, I don't think Dark Flier is honestly that great. In fact, I don't think I would use it. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'd add at least another 2 tiers to allow more distinction. Without too much thought I'd go like: God Tier: Sage, Dark Flier High Tier: Hero, Sniper, Assassin, Berserker (supp) Mid-High Tier: Dark Knight, Bride, Dancer Mid Tier: Paladin, Great Lord, Swordmaster, Warrior, Sorceror, Dread Fighter Low Tier: Bow Knight, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider, Valkyrie, Manakete, Grandmaster, General Trash Tier: Villager, Taguel, Great Knight, Trickster, War Cleric I'm sure a lot of this could be changed though, I don't use the majority of these classes. Also the issue of any flying class making a reasonable rally/staff bot. ...What. I don't see Longbow access as so good that it justifies them in effing HIGH TIER. Especially since at the end of the day, they're still bowlocked, and bowlock is a huge negative. TBH, I don't think I'd use it. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffPuff Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 ...What. I don't see Longbow access as so good that it justifies them in effing HIGH TIER. Especially since at the end of the day, they're still bowlocked, and bowlock is a huge negative. TBH, I don't think I'd use it. Ever. ^This But...it's the only way that you can nail Longbow Snipers during the Enemy Phase. ----- War Cleric, if ever debated should go in OU(High Tier) for their ability too use Staves like Sages as Rescue is heavily needed in Apotheosis as you usually get 2-3 koed there (Secret Route). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'd add at least another 2 tiers to allow more distinction. Without too much thought I'd go like: God Tier: Sage, Dark Flier High Tier: Hero, Sniper, Assassin, Berserker (supp) Mid-High Tier: Dark Knight, Bride, Dancer Mid Tier: Paladin, Great Lord, Swordmaster, Warrior, Sorceror, Dread Fighter Low Tier: Bow Knight, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider, Valkyrie, Manakete, Grandmaster, General Trash Tier: Villager, Taguel, Great Knight, Trickster, War Cleric I'm sure a lot of this could be changed though, I don't use the majority of these classes. Also the issue of any flying class making a reasonable rally/staff bot. Valkyries and Falcos are the best Staffbots in the game. [if Valkyrie had waterwalking, it'd be the best straight up.] No way in hell are DKs more useful than Paladins. Dark Flier is not god tier. It's definitely high tier though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazydoggamer Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'd add at least another 2 tiers to allow more distinction. Without too much thought I'd go like: God Tier: Sage, Dark Flier High Tier: Hero, Sniper, Assassin, Berserker (supp) Mid-High Tier: Dark Knight, Bride, Dancer Mid Tier: Paladin, Great Lord, Swordmaster, Warrior, Sorceror, Dread Fighter Low Tier: Bow Knight, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider, Valkyrie, Manakete, Grandmaster, General Trash Tier: Villager, Taguel, Great Knight, Trickster, War Cleric I'm sure a lot of this could be changed though, I don't use the majority of these classes. Also the issue of any flying class making a reasonable rally/staff bot. Falcon Knight is way too low. They're arguably the best staff bots in the game. Also I don't understand why you have Dark Knight so high and Grandmasters so low when they're pretty much the same except for mounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) I'm all for the distinction of extra tiers if you guys think it's a good idea. Clearly there's some difference of opinion on who belongs where… I think on that note, I'll highlight some of the classes that may or may not need more discussion. Changes I'm making to the OP list: - Tiers are now named after the weapon tiers because why not? - Removing Lodestar and Conquerer from the list overall unless someone can give a good reason why they should be listed - Tiers largely reset to compensate for the doubled number of tiers. (Refer to OP for current tiering) Topics for discussion: - Is the Sage really so far above the others that it deserves its own spot in Top tier? What other units would be appropriate for top-tier, if any? - How much use do non-FK mixed Staff units really have (Trickster/War Monkleric)? Is the high utility of Staves enough to keep them out of bottom tier? For discussion purposes, let's try to stick to a general conduct of discussing one or a few units at a time until a general consensus is reached (at which point I'll add them back to the list). When discussing a unit, don't forget to mention which tier you think it belongs in. EDIT: Currently, it sounds like the general consensus is that Falcoknights' and Valkyries' utility with staves makes them A-tier worthy, so I'm adding them in. Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolCoolCool Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Dark Knights are good if you are trying to minimum-turn apotheosis SR which is why I rate them highly. Even with rally movement on 8-move units, the +1 boost from dark knight pairup really helps. Same reason I rated dark flier so highly. The power loss from sage isn't that high (5 mag 3 skill). Pretty much anything can staffbot, I just use falcon knight einherjar's but you can probably get equivalent value out of basically any staff class. Edited March 13, 2014 by CoolCoolCool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 Dark Knights are good if you are trying to minimum-turn apotheosis SR which is why I rate them highly. Even with rally movement on 8-move units, the +1 boost from dark knight pairup really helps. Same reason I rated dark flier so highly. The power loss from sage isn't that high (5 mag 3 skill). Pretty much anything can staffbot, I just use falcon knight einherjar's but you can probably get equivalent value out of basically any staff class. Do you have a proposed tier (or range of tiers) for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeoandReo Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'll vouch for Trickster, mostly because I think the class is a little underrated. While they can't reach as high movement as Valkyries and Falcoknights, they're guaranteed to have Movement+1 from Thief, so if you grant that, they can hit 7 move compared to Valk/Falco's 8. They also get Acrobat, solving some of the issues that units on land have compared to fliers. (Still can't go over holes, but can at least cross problematic territory easier) Pair up bonuses are actually similar to Dark Fliers, except with a point of movement (2 magic/1 skill/3 speed/1 move compared to DF's 3 magic/3 speed/2 res) so they can give any leads an extra little boost to get close to the enemies. The only main downside is that they don't have tomes for higher damage at the back of a pair up, so they have to rely on Braves with a lower strength cap. Overall, it's not the best staff classes to have, but it's one of the better alternatives if someone lacks Valk/Falco/Sage/whatever. Depending on how the other staff classes are tiered, they're certainly below Valk/Falco, but significantly better than War Monk. Maybe equal or a little lower than Bride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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