Big NOCers - Game Over

[Scarlet]

What do you think about Strege at this stage? I know you said you didn't find him scummy, but what do you think of the points other people have brought up against him?

I can see the reasoning people have brought up regarding his CLIPSEY! vote, but I don't see the scum intent behind his Manix interactions (going off my memory here, can't be bothered to ISO him again).

Like, at this point I'm getting the feeling that you guys are all just operating under the assumption that anyone who wasn't on the final Manix wagon D2 must automatically be scum.

I just checked and note, for instance, how Refa was present for all of 30 minutes this entire phase (right after it started) and hasn't shown up ever since. Just about nobody really paid any mind to him. Sure, Manix was tunneling on him all the time, but considering how much his activity has dropped since everybody apparently pretty much concluded "yeah okay I guess that means he must be town", I'm getting the feeling he's just kinda coasting on his town cred here and doesn't want to post anything that could put him into the spotlight.

I also want you to expand on your BBM vote a bit? As far as I can tell this is why you're voting BBM:

in addition to weird interactions with Manix and bad logic against you.

The problem is that is that there are several people with weird interactions with Manix (that you completely ignored) and I don't see BBM's case as illogical as you're saying it is, even if his tone is a bit aggressive.

I'm no longer so sure about that myself anymore. I guess I did overreact to his vote on me. I feel like the entire Manix interactions things is way overblown at this point, by everyone.

As for other people with Manix interactions, can you point out which ones I ignored/missed?

##Unvote

Updated lynch priority:

Refa > everyone else

Refa being where he is mostly for the oddity I pointed out above. I don't really have much confidence in any of my other reads at this point. I'm fine with voting Strege or anyone else for consolidation.

[Conqueror]

Pretty sure it's rolespec, it's not like he hasn't been saying it for the past x posts.

If you think BBM is scum, don't just compromise on Strege "because," so talk about it? I'm still not sure why Strege is voting eclipse but the fact that he's put in probably the most game-content effort today makes me want to lynch him less.

[Conqueror]

As for other people with Manix interactions, can you point out which ones I ignored/missed?

By that I just meant that it wasn't just BBM with shitty Manix interactions. People like eclipse, Strege, maybe Elie's slot, so I was wondering why you were just focused on BBM.

Meh, I should probably relook at Refa. I was reading him town even before the Manix lynch though.

[j00]

Didn't Strege say himself that his eclipse case didn't hold water anymore? He didn't unvote after that?

Raymond: I get being confused about reads, I'm getting unsure myself, but don't you at least have town reads/people you don't want to lynch today, or are you null on everyone?

[Conqueror]

Strege has still been voting eclipse since the start of the day and still is. That's probably my main issue with him, because despite all the words he's posted his vote looks thrown there for the sake of it. If it was the bit where she didn't explain why she wanted to vote one of BBM/Elie how does that change after eclipse explained her reasoning?

[Elieson]

Pretty sure it's rolespec, it's not like he hasn't been saying it for the past x posts.

If you think BBM is scum, don't just compromise on Strege "because," so talk about it? I'm still not sure why Strege is voting eclipse but the fact that he's put in probably the most game-content effort today makes me want to lynch him less.

Effort isn't town though. Meta analysis isn't town. Rolespec isn't really town either.

Ray's last post is scummy as heck. Now that I'm paying actual attention to him, literally all he has done today is defend and deflect. Why aren't you voting for your scumread?

At this point I just want to nominate Conq as town leader and have him coordinate votes for the leading lynch candidate(s).

fuck i don't even know what to do with BBM anymore. His play today has been more town than not but everything before today was scummy as fuck

[Conqueror]

Effort isn't town, but lack of effort sure is scummy.

I can see Refa's name on the bottom of the thread and it's been on and off for the past few days. Yes, I am using forum activity in a mafia game.

[Scarlet]

By that I just meant that it wasn't just BBM with shitty Manix interactions. People like eclipse, Strege, maybe Elie's slot, so I was wondering why you were just focused on BBM.

I was reading CLIPSEY! as town pretty much all game simply because her actions just don't make any sense from a scum PoV (although I guess I'm slightly biased when it comes to CLIPSEY!).

Elieson I likewise developed a town read on at some point during D2, so it honestly didn't really occur to me to go back and check his content again.

I covered Strege here (although I admit I wasn't very clear about it in hindsight).

Raymond: I get being confused about reads, I'm getting unsure myself, but don't you at least have town reads/people you don't want to lynch today, or are you null on everyone?

I had Elie/CLIPSEY!/Conq all as town before, but I'm starting to second-guess myself.

[Elieson]

wrt his interactions with the only confirmed scum have been scummy as fuck

We seriously need to do something for Conq's bullet.

[Strege]

Because doing something in the second half of DayPhase with your votes totally makes up for the time missed during the first half of the Dayphase

I'm ISO'ing BBM and Strege, and while BBM's defenses of Manix like all game long post claim and everything were a thing, Strege is just all over the place from day to day, and not consistent with his reads

I'm thinking BBM > Strege today. I would've taken my vote off of BBM to put it on Strege, but Strege was already responding to pressure with beign at L-1 and answering people without the need for an extra vote piled onto him.

Associations aside, self depreciation is lame lame lame and being used too often, and it just seems like strege's cases are just to flimsily built to warrant validity

At this point, I think it's best to just get this done.

##Vote Strege

Please cite me not being consistent. I agree that self-depreciation is lame and I've been doing to too much but I've been using to explain things -- things like people thinking I'm tunnelling when in fact I just have different opinions and no better reads. If someone had criticized me by saying my reads were bad and in what way there were scummy because of it (which you aren't doing) I'd accept that. I don't think it's valid to say "your cases are weak therefore you are scummy".

Oh, you're right, I haven't really presented my case on you Elie (but I said you were scummy last phase and am pointing out scummy things today so I think it was a safe assumtion). You don't seem interested in finding scum today: you started today saying you were confused about eclipse and haven't followed up, your BBM case is actually mostly withheld (?), and your case on me is that my cases have been weak or weird which I think is incomplete. You haven't explained your Scarlet read (you might have missed that I asked you to, but the fact that he gets ~6 words is pretty bad). Last phase you needed prodding to explain your reads for a significant amount of time, which tells me that you weren't just too busy to put out some support, and it's the same this phase.

Conq: I've been voting eclipse because I've been waiting on answers from eclipse and for my other cases on SB (who I actually wouldn't want to vote right now) and Elie (who I think I'll vote now, after I step back for a second to clear my head. I'm not upset or anything but I am getting too involved)

"They will be places of refuge from the avenger, so that anyone accused of murder may not die before they stand trial before the assembly."

[Elieson]

Effort isn't town, but lack of effort sure is scummy.

I can see Refa's name on the bottom of the thread and it's been on and off for the past few days. Yes, I am using forum activity in a mafia game.

Also, whoever can read this should really bump to the neighborchat because i've got something to ask ya.

[Scarlet]

Ray's last post is scummy as heck. Now that I'm paying actual attention to him, literally all he has done today is defend and deflect.

what

Why aren't you voting for your scumread?

Because I just unvoted, duh.

Sarcasm aside, I'm still here and we need to consolidate on a lynch soon, so I'm waiting for a consensus to be reached?

[j00]

I'll be back before deadline, but are there any objections to me hammering today? You'll all see the reasons for this soon enough

[Strege]

Right-o.

I JUST realized what this meant. Does me clarifiying the typo change anything? Ignoring the fact that your read on BBM and I doesn't have any material, I still don't understand what makes me more scummy than BBM. Also, your POE thing makes no mention of our Manix interactions, and I'm not willing to believe it's a coincidence that your POE happened to land on the same people who everyone else is voting largely on interactions, so what do you think of those? You must have something worth saying.

I'm content with Elie!vote after some thought though.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

[Elieson]

Please cite me not being consistent. I agree that self-depreciation is lame and I've been doing to too much but I've been using to explain things -- things like people thinking I'm tunnelling when in fact I just have different opinions and no better reads. If someone had criticized me by saying my reads were bad and in what way there were scummy because of it (which you aren't doing) I'd accept that. I don't think it's valid to say "your cases are weak therefore you are scummy".

Oh, you're right, I haven't really presented my case on you Elie (but I said you were scummy last phase and am pointing out scummy things today so I think it was a safe assumtion). You don't seem interested in finding scum today: you started today saying you were confused about eclipse and haven't followed up, your BBM case is actually mostly withheld (?), and your case on me is that my cases have been weak or weird which I think is incomplete. You haven't explained your Scarlet read (you might have missed that I asked you to, but the fact that he gets ~6 words is pretty bad). Last phase you needed prodding to explain your reads for a significant amount of time, which tells me that you weren't just too busy to put out some support, and it's the same this phase.

[spoiler=Incontinence (or Inconsistence, I think the first is funnier)]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3023249

Pokes more negative attention at Refa than j00, but votes j00

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3024449

Suddenly finds SB scummy enough to list as a scumread? You haven't mentioned SB -ANY-WHERE-

Your refa read just disinigrated into thin air, considering he was one of your top scumreads for a while, and you never even hinted at why.

Your eclipse vote today came out of the blue, considering your announced reads on SB (Haven't I been over this already?). You also can't really organize and maintain reads on people.

SB is cool, Eclipse is uncool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3035283

SB is uncool, Eclipse is cool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3036339

Eclipse is uncool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3039797

Eclipse is uncool, SB is cool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3042414

SB is uncool, eclipse is uncooler: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3043339

It's also valid to say "your cases are weak, therefore you're scummy", because "weak cases" can be legit attempts to draw a negative light on someone and encourage a mislynch. One might think their case is good when in essence it could be flawed, but there's no way to determine how people will react to a presented case that looks good to it's poster because Lol SF Logic

I've also got eclipse in the Neighbor room, and when it came to needing more information, it was in relation to be jailing you last night and you saying you performed your action. No excuses for why I couldn't have put together better cases yesterphase though, except for the fact that my Obvious-BBM Read carried through quite well onto D2, and onto Today. Not sure what's so hard to get about that. I've also got crossbuilding opinions on Scarlet because Neighbor room conversation and inthread conversation are two different things to establish reads with. I'm liking him less, but I wasn't originally finding him scummy for any reason. At this point, I'd put him right in the middle of Town:Scum. Doesn't mean I like what he's doing, and he's reacting consistently even without votes on him.

Seriously. I've been calling BBM out for Manix interactions since I subbed in, and Manix has since flipped red. Have I been vague on that?

[charlie_]

Wait, did Strege say he actually acted last night explicitly somewhere or ???

Working on my post atm.

[charlie_]

I don't think Strege's effortposting means that he's town? Scum are gonna try their hardest to not get lynched today, or else it'll likely by 7/1 with 2 or 3 roleblockers running around racking up clears.

But I don't get the feeling that you're town, either, and little things like the completely made-up accusation above keep reinforcing a read that I otherwise probably would have dropped by now. (Although why we'd have three town-aligned roleblocker variants is beyond me.)

Also, ITPs may exist.

You're twisting my words. You and Refa had done much more compared to Manix, so I felt that lynching either of you over him would've given us more in the way of associative reads. That doesn't change the fact that I found Manix scummy for doing it.

You already corrected yourself on this part, but eh. I figure if you're grasping at stuff from day 1 as your main cause for a scumread, it's not exactly great.

Also, we lynch people for being scum on Day 2, not for the sake of associative reads that can be screwed up by townies playing badly. The fact that you suddenly swerved on your strongest scumread to try and vote me or Refa off is odd, and it kinda feels like you're ignoring the fact Refa was a counterwagon to Manix iirc? (I could be wrong here.)

I think the Refa inactivity thing is interesting though.

I feel pretty confident that eclipse is town now, I don't see her saying that BBM is scum but having absolutely no case to show for it as scum, I figure that she would be able to force some sort of case on BBM considering how much work Eli is trying to put in and get him lynched with.

That's not true?

You posted much less D2 than you did D1, but I did adress you and your content multiple times.

In case you missed it when ISOing me or something, I adressed you in my #521 and a couple of my posts following that one.

I do admit that my scumread on you is still mostly because of your D1, but your more recent posts did nothing to worsen or improve that impression.

That, and I find it doubtful that we'd have three town-aligned roleblocker variants in a 13p game. I mean, it is a Prims game, but come on. I feel pretty good about my town reads on the other two, so yeah...

There was only really one post that you were particularly critical about, the rest were mostly response posts iirc. I don't blame you for the multiple roleblockers assumption though.

Eli: I know that BBM defended Manix, but what about it makes you think that he's scum defending a buddy rather than a townie who ended up reading Manix wrong? His defense was consistent, if nothing else.

[Strege]

[spoiler=Incontinence (or Inconsistence, I think the first is funnier)]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3023249

Pokes more negative attention at Refa than j00, but votes j00

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3024449

Suddenly finds SB scummy enough to list as a scumread? You haven't mentioned SB -ANY-WHERE-

Your refa read just disinigrated into thin air, considering he was one of your top scumreads for a while, and you never even hinted at why.

Your eclipse vote today came out of the blue, considering your announced reads on SB (Haven't I been over this already?). You also can't really organize and maintain reads on people.

SB is cool, Eclipse is uncool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3035283

SB is uncool, Eclipse is cool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3036339

Eclipse is uncool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3039797

Eclipse is uncool, SB is cool: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3042414

SB is uncool, eclipse is uncooler: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3043339

It's also valid to say "your cases are weak, therefore you're scummy", because "weak cases" can be legit attempts to draw a negative light on someone and encourage a mislynch. One might think their case is good when in essence it could be flawed, but there's no way to determine how people will react to a presented case that looks good to it's poster because Lol SF Logic

I've also got eclipse in the Neighbor room, and when it came to needing more information, it was in relation to be jailing you last night and you saying you performed your action. No excuses for why I couldn't have put together better cases yesterphase though, except for the fact that my Obvious-BBM Read carried through quite well onto D2, and onto Today. Not sure what's so hard to get about that. I've also got crossbuilding opinions on Scarlet because Neighbor room conversation and inthread conversation are two different things to establish reads with. I'm liking him less, but I wasn't originally finding him scummy for any reason. At this point, I'd put him right in the middle of Town:Scum. Doesn't mean I like what he's doing, and he's reacting consistently even without votes on him.

Seriously. I've been calling BBM out for Manix interactions since I subbed in, and Manix has since flipped red. Have I been vague on that?

I said Refa was weird and I didn't understand his stuff, and I said j00 was being deceitful and definitely not looking for scum. Of course I voted j00.

I mention SB in that post -- that's what that means.

I explain why my Refa read when away in post 406.

I explained my eclipse read, and she was my secondary scumread from last phase.

Of the things you linked, the first is wrong (I said both were slightly townier than they had been) and after that it's a trend toward scumreading eclipse based on new information. How is that inconsistent?

"weak cases" can be legit attempts to draw a negative light on someone and encourage a mislynch. I think you can go a lot further to establish probability instead of just possibility though.

Your first post this phase still sounds like you're withholding information. I might be misinterpreting but what's up with that? (me writing "mostly" was dumb though; I just meant to refer to most of that post)

I didn't act N2.

"During the last watch of the night the Lord looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion."

[charlie_]

Why didn't you act? By the sounds of things you would've got blocked by both me and Eli anyway, but I don't see the point in not trying.

[Strege]

I didn't act because I didn't have an action.

"In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see."

[charlie_]

So you only have one item that you can give out, or ???

[Strege]

It would be bad for me to fullclaim but I'll say that there is a small addition to my role related to the main bit (dat vest thing). I only have one vest, which is a point I may be able to convince you of: I'm Linus, from Peanuts, and my vest is flavoured as a blanket. If you didn't get the item flavour then you can look at my my crumb in post 480: "Conq! nobias but I don't think you should shoot me. I'll be around later but I gotta wash my sheets n'stuff." I realized later that I made it too subtle in case I'd been redirected so I started pointing it out in ALL CAPS. lol I'm such a nub this game. I assume that's also why my PR is to quote scripture. Point is I only have one and was actively trying to tell you that I gave it to you, which is pretty terrible play for a Fabricator since you'd figure it out after a phase or two.

I have the vest and something relating to it specifically. I don't see a reason for me to explain what that is, especially since I'm a protective role so any information is pretty bad to reveal.

"You will be protected from the lash of the tongue, and need not fear when destruction comes."

[Conqueror]

At this stage, with ~4? hours to deadline and you one of the leading candidates for lynch, you might as well.

[Strege]

We need to consolidate and I'm against the BBM lynch. I didn't see anything wrong with Scarlet and I don't have time to look right now, so this is Not Me Over Me.

##Unvote
##Vote: Scarlet


Unofficial D3 Votals

BigBangMeteor (1): Refa

Conqueror (2): j00,

Scarlet (2): ????????, Conq

Strege (3): BigBangMeteor, eclipse, Elieson

Elie (1): Strege

Not Voting: SB, Scarlet

3 hours and 50 minutes left.

PEdit:

Gah, okay. If the person I gave the BPV to dies I get it back.

I didn't want to reveal this in case, you know, Conq dies, which is pretty plausible since we have 3 pseudo-roleblockers.

[j00]

there already was a discussion on "weak cases" when I used the term D1/D2, and as said scum can easily have weak cases because they have to make up stuff on about people. yeah they can be town with poor reasoning but attacking weak cases isn't anything weird.

I'll be back before deadline, but are there any objections to me hammering today? You'll all see the reasons for this soon enough

anyone?