Big NOCers - Game Over

[Strege]

there already was a discussion on "weak cases" when I used the term D1/D2, and as said scum can easily have weak cases because they have to make up stuff on about people. yeah they can be town with poor reasoning but attacking weak cases isn't anything weird.

No, but lynching someone for it on D3 is pretty bad. There are some other parts to cases on me but I feel like most of it is just that my cases are weak, and people aren't really delving into specifics.

[Strege]

BBM why did you give me this PR I have no memory at all.

"Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live."

[Elieson]

I don't think Strege's effortposting means that he's town? Scum are gonna try their hardest to not get lynched today, or else it'll likely by 7/1 with 2 or 3 roleblockers running around racking up clears

Clearer words were never spoken. Unusual assumption on the numbers though

Eli: I know that BBM defended Manix, but what about it makes you think that he's scum defending a buddy rather than a townie who ended up reading Manix wrong? His defense was consistent, if nothing else.

With as much as they fought with eachother and back and forths and whatnot, it seemed forced because of the times that the posts were made, in combination with the posts themselves. BBM maintaining a defense shows unnecessary conviction to something that he shouldn't be aware of. Why was he like "Oh, well fuck, Manix claimed this, it must be absolutely true" and for D2 being like "Yea guys Manix is town because role role role"? Town shouldn't have a reason to trust it that much, IMO

I said Refa was weird and I didn't understand his stuff, and I said j00 was being deceitful and definitely not looking for scum. Of course I voted j00.

I mention SB in that post -- that's what that means.

I explain why my Refa read when away in post 406.

Interpretted the "Big WTF for me, Nullread" as "well I'm still confused by him and not sure how to read him", which isn't that far from a scumread, since it's not shifting from scum->town, rather than scum->Either/Or

I explained my eclipse read, and she was my secondary scumread from last phase.

Of the things you linked, the first is wrong (I said both were slightly townier than they had been) and after that it's a trend toward scumreading eclipse based on new information. How is that inconsistent?

I'm refering to the ups-and-downs-and-all-arounds of eclipse and SB constantly flipping betweenwhich one is scummier in your view

"weak cases" can be legit attempts to draw a negative light on someone and encourage a mislynch. I think you can go a lot further to establish probability instead of just possibility though.

IMO, nobody's going to intentionally present a weak case, because it's a waste of time to make yourself look bad when you're trying to make someone else look bad, town or scum. The difference being is why X presented a case, that happened to be interpretted as weak.

Your first post this phase still sounds like you're withholding information. I might be misinterpreting but what's up with that? (me writing "mostly" was dumb though; I just meant to refer to most of that post)

"I wanna check on something"My first post was to check on if a certain somebody was successfully invited to the neighborhood, since primsmod didn't notify us that [uSER] had been added. That since has been dismissed. I wanted to see if one of our multiple hookers had hooked Scarlet, and with no mod notification, I wasn't sure what was the case.

[Strege]

No, but lynching someone for it on D3 is pretty bad. There are some other parts to cases on me but I feel like most of it is just that my cases are weak, and people aren't really delving into specifics.

I feel like this is true but ~bias~. It's also not worth responding to in retrospect.

Scarlet, you might not feel strongly about a read but how about a piece of one? If everyone but Refa is equal and you don't care who gets lynched, you shouldn't feel guilty about pointing out something scummy about someone, and it is an association that would ideally help find scum at the end of the day.

"How painful are honest words!

But what do your arguments prove?

Do you mean to correct what I say,

and treat my desperate words as wind?

You would even cast lots for the fatherless

and barter away your friend."

[Elieson]

j00 should probably hammer someone, too

[j00]

No, but lynching someone for it on D3 is pretty bad. There are some other parts to cases on me but I feel like most of it is just that my cases are weak, and people aren't really delving into specifics.

Well, there's also PoE. People on the Manix wagon can still be scum, but there's made compelling arguments for how SB could easily have been lynched instead had some of them acted slightly different. The rest have all been discussed extensively today.

I don't think we should omit the thought that someone bussed Manix though, still rereading Refa in between homework, should ISO others too

[Refa]

Yeah, sorry for being MIA this phase. I uh...pulled a Polydeuces. Except with less Fairy Tail and more...uh...I forget. Not really bothered if anyone found me scummy for it.

My notes reading the last five pages (super skimmed):

-Elieson's claimed block makes sense as Jailer because he'd be protecting the proven DayVig without blocking him (well, as far as he knew at the time)

-BBM's Strege case makes sense but nothing about it makes me feel better about BBM himself.

-I don't even get the premise behind Strege's initial eclipse vote

-@j00 I wouldn't give Elieson town cred for voting someone over himself either, although the point is moot because I'm reading him as town for other reasons

-Is noone else bothered by three roleblocker claims? Ugh, j00 brings up a good point though (WRT none of them having reason to claim). I also think it's ridiculous that we have three roleblockers and not one kill has been blocked. Good job, guys...

-j00's tier list sucks

-BBM brings up some good points WRT Scarlet and his activity during the end of Day 2

-Did everyone ignore Strege giving Conq an item though? Like why would he do that as scum?

-I don't think eclipse is scum because she basically enabled the Manix wagon. Keep in mind without her, he might not have gotten lynched; she would've had a good excuse for it too as scum.

-@Elieson For whatever it's worth (I've got all da town cred), I've been reading j00 as town too (wow, it'd be the first game where j00 has been town)

-"I also think Refa's been given entirely too much credit in this game." I'm pretty sure almost everyone has stated that I'm either scummy or my play sucked this whole game...

-Wait, why did Strege vote for Elieson?

I'm going to need to do some rereading. I felt so confident of my scumreads before this phase. Here's where my reads are now:

Town: Conqueror, eclipse, j00, Refa, SB, Elieson

Scum: BBM, Scarlet, Strege

I haven't seen a convincing case for any of my townreads. Anyways...time to do more reading...oh joy. What are the votals?

[j00]

-Elieson's claimed block makes sense as Jailer because he'd be protecting the proven DayVig without blocking him (well, as far as he knew at the time)

uhhh no one knew Conq was dayvig D1 though? I think it was Vhaltz who did that action, but Elie, did he leave any notes for why?

[Refa]

Wait, I'm an idiot. I thought the vig shot was D1 for some reason. Ignore that comment. Was Vhaltz town/scumreading Conq?

[j00]

your tier list is bad and you should feel bad. I did it better, you should tier my way or gtfo tiering

-j00's tier list sucks

you guys suck

[Strege]

Interpretted the "Big WTF for me, Nullread" as "well I'm still confused by him and not sure how to read him", which isn't that far from a scumread, since it's not shifting from scum->town, rather than scum->Either/Or

I'm refering to the ups-and-downs-and-all-arounds of eclipse and SB constantly flipping betweenwhich one is scummier in your view

IMO, nobody's going to intentionally present a weak case, because it's a waste of time to make yourself look bad when you're trying to make someone else look bad, town or scum. The difference being is why X presented a case, that happened to be interpretted as weak.

"I wanna check on something"My first post was to check on if a certain somebody was successfully invited to the neighborhood, since primsmod didn't notify us that [uSER] had been added. That since has been dismissed. I wanted to see if one of our multiple hookers had hooked Scarlet, and with no mod notification, I wasn't sure what was the case.

I don't agree with that interpretation seeing as I said "I was reading his posts wrong", but okay.

I don't see ups and downs. I see SB as my top scumread, and then eclipse replacing him due to her Manix interactions. Other stuff came up to make eclipse look worse, along with a few major knocks against my case, but by then I was even less interested in the SB case due to a lack of additional scummy content and his generally good Manix interactions.

I don't understand what the second sentence of your thing about weak cases is meant to convey.

I'm talking about you withholding information when you said:

"I also wanna look into BBM's hard defense of Manix BECAUSE I WAS ENTERTAINED, and also his D2 case on Strege involving pretty much just Sheeping+Metamon. I don't really wanna look into it more though, I'm just saying that because I find it to be a neat combination of red flags?"

“As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.”

Wait, why am I scum Refa? Do you think my cases on Elie or eclipse are scummy or ??? Also I put votals up a bit ago.

[j00]

-Did everyone ignore Strege giving Conq an item though? Like why would he do that as scum?

Scum: BBM, Scarlet, Strege

dude wait what

[Refa]

I don't even get your cases, and your late Elieson vote is kind of out of place because I don't think anyone else wants to lynch him this phase. You're scum because you're not a town read. Hence the required rereads to narrow things down.

[Refa]

dude wait what

That was before the item turned out to be fucking ridiculous.

[j00]

That was before the item turned out to be fucking ridiculous.

eh wouldn't scum like to keep such an item to themselves? or are you saying the item is too ridiculous to be true

the item claim is the only thing that makes me doubt a Strege lynch actually

[j00]

unless the final scumteam is Conq and Strege but jesus

[Refa]

The latter. I mean if the item is legit and works, then Strege is definitely town. I am doubting that.

[j00]

well, the one claiming the item's effect is Conq, so you think it's fabricated?

because looking at the given claims, I'm willing to believe this game is ridiculous

blah if we're not lynching Strege then I don't know, BBM is scum for sure if Strege flips town, but outside of that I'm not sure of anything

[Scarlet]

Scarlet, you might not feel strongly about a read but how about a piece of one? If everyone but Refa is equal and you don't care who gets lynched, you shouldn't feel guilty about pointing out something scummy about someone, and it is an association that would ideally help find scum at the end of the day.

That's the thing though, at this point I'm reconsidering if half the stuff I've been attacking people for is even all that scummy in hindsight. I know I have a tendency to attack people over what I perceive as bad play / bad logic without giving much thought to the intent behind it, and it occurs to me that that side of me may have gotten the better of me for most of the game thus far.

At this point, I'd have to re-read most of the game to develop new reads, and that'll have to wait.

(super skimmed)

Why, that is not at all obvious.

##Greet: Refa

(I'll still switch for the lynch if needed.)

Go read D3 in more detail.

[Refa]

well, the one claiming the item's effect is Conq, so you think it's fabricated?

because looking at the given claims, I'm willing to believe this game is ridiculous

blah if we're not lynching Strege then I don't know, BBM is scum for sure if Strege flips town, but outside of that I'm not sure of anything

I'm just saying it could be fabricated, which I'm more inclined to believe because of how ridiculous it is.

Also I don't get Strege/BBM read? Like I think if Strege flips scum, then BBM is most likelytown (and vica-versa) because I don't get why he'd be hard bussing possibly (?) his only scumbuddy left at the beginning of the day; but I can't see how the inverse is true?

[Strege]

BBM is scum for sure if Strege flips town, but outside of that I'm not sure of anything

Blah blah blah lining up lynches :\

Refa, how is my role overpowered? It has minimal utility against scum since they wouldn't use it if they need to use an ability, or once they noticed that we have no other nightkills. It's generally weaker than jailer because I can't protect someone on the night I give them the vest, and it can be stuck on a weak role or someone who isn't likely to get shot later on. It's benefit is that it sticks around after I'm gone.

"I have seen a grievous evil under the sun:

wealth hoarded to the harm of its owners,

or wealth lost through some misfortune,

so that when they have children

there is nothing left for them to inherit."

[j00]

PoE, I'm not convinced the remaining scumteam is necessarily outside the Manix wagon, and BBM has been attacking both Strege and Raymond this phase. If they're not scum, they're certainly easy mislynches, and we haven't really paid much attention to the people on the Manix wagon since discussion never really was brought there.

it's a lot of wifom I admit, but BBM isn't obvtown either since he didn't have that many cases prior to this phase, mostly "I don't think X is scum".

[j00]

Refa, how is my role overpowered? It has minimal utility against scum since they wouldn't use it if they need to use an ability, or once they noticed that we have no other nightkills. It's generally weaker than jailer because I can't protect someone on the night I give them the vest, and it can be stuck on a weak role or someone who isn't likely to get shot later on. It's benefit is that it sticks around after I'm gone.

because give it to the day vig without night actions and he's unkillable

[Refa]

My thoughts on the people on the Manix wagon are as follows;

-The lynch could not have happened without you, Conqueror, or eclipse. The former two started the wagon and had a lot of opportunities to switch if they ever felt their scumbuddy was in danger, and already mentioned eclipse. I feel like this should be true for everyone.

-The latter people (me,SB,Elieson) are lol me, a strong townread, and a less strong but still townread.

[Strege]

because give it to the day vig without night actions and he's unkillable

We have three (3) roleblockers.

"Defend my cause and redeem me; preserve my life according to your promise."