US Presidential Election 2016

[Lord Raven]

My issue with dealing with but corporations is that they don't want to lose money and they have the leverage of the economy - jobs, contribution to GDP, etc - against us. I don't think they face the fear of death so much as face the fear of making life worse for every single person.

Trickle down economics is a beautiful thing really... No seriously though fuck it

Edited April 15, 2014 by Lord Raven

[Excellen Browning]

Considering Obama has had to deal with the fallout of the Bush administration and the senate and house of representatives having been as deadlocked as they were, I think he and most of the government under him has largely been competent if maybe reluctant. I mean, they were still capable of governing and legislation even with the likes of the Tea Party, the fundamentalist christians and people who think the end times are coming and that obama is the devil incarnate. Regardless of how close they at some points got to the edge of the cliff.

I mean, the affordable care act passed (and will be considered a good piece of legislation in a few years), American troops have finally left Iraq and Afghanistan, strained relationships with other governments have mostly calmed down, the US government didn't need to shut down due to the deficit ceiling even though quite a few people tried, America as a whole is climbing back out of the market crash hole at above average speed(though job markets always lag behind course recovery), marihuana has been decriminalized in a number of states, the list goes on for a little while.

Overall, I'd support the candidate who aims to close the ever-groing wealth gap. A country where the few wealthy people continue to get richer and everyone else gets poorer comparatively means death for the middle class and a worse life for the lower classes, as this will create a hostile social environment as well as economic downfall, or at least in my opinion. I'd be willing to push greater taxes on the rich and superrich for the benefit of the nation as a whole, no matter how untrusting Americans generally are towards the federal government.

[Defeatist Elitist]

+1 to the notion that we need an independent leader. Growing up a heavily liberal dominated community, I have learned that taxing the rich to serve the poor does not work. It was actually this online game called budget hero that pushed me towards the middle of the political scale. Here is the link for anyone who is interested: http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/budget-hero

Decreasing defense funds barely puts a dent in the deficit. Health is one of the bigger costs of the US. I think everyone should have a go at it and see how long they can prevent a budget bust. It may change your political tendency.

So, two brief things: the first is obviously that you have to have higher taxes, jesus christ, what the fuck is wrong with you people, how do you balance a budget without a revenue source, can you even do basic math, you can't just keep cutting things, goddamnit. Like seriously, your taxes are the lowest they've been in ages, and even a cursory look at things will show that, at the very least, everything was totally fine when taxes were higher.

The second is that I agree with you, health care should be fixed, your weird hybrid system is dumb, just go full single payer, it's actually probably cheaper that way (I hope that's what you were implying)!

Also, it never stops weirding me the fuck out when I read about American politics and people keep using Liberal as a term for left wing, as opposed to a term of derision for milquetoast centrists.

[Superbus]

Irregardless of the sociological debates going on,we have a hard reality to consider:

1) Fuck 2016; the Republicans are likely taking over the Senate. Lame duck presidents rarely get anything done in the first place; now, Obama's going to be fighting against a Republican house loaded with teabaggers, and a Senate that's going to be resurgent. He's going to have to have his veto pen ready...

2) Don't think that Hillary Clinton is going to be a savior for democrats. Not only does she not have some of the advantages that Barack Obama had - she'll be 69 on Inauguration Day - but she also has a bit of a tortured history with liberal activists in her own party (the Iraq vote comes to mind). Not quite to the degree that Romney had a problem with the teabaggers, but it's not insignificant.

3) The election will not be decided by the principal parties who are running. What will decide it is simply this: post-midterms, how much influence will the tea party have? If they still have a strong influence like they did in 2012, where they basically cost Mitt Romney the election by costing him the middle, then Hillary will win the election. If, however, conservatives can get behind a proverbial "RINO" who is a bit more towards the centre - someone like Jeb Bush or Chris Christie - then I think the GOP will win. That's very bad news for social liberals, because even when the teabaggers got into power after 2010, it wasn't the economy they attacked; it was anything involving women's rights, in the name of Jesus.

[jiodi]

Irregardless of the sociological debates going on,we have a hard reality to consider:

1) Fuck 2016; the Republicans are likely taking over the Senate. Lame duck presidents rarely get anything done in the first place; now, Obama's going to be fighting against a Republican house loaded with teabaggers, and a Senate that's going to be resurgent. He's going to have to have his veto pen ready...

2) Don't think that Hillary Clinton is going to be a savior for democrats. Not only does she not have some of the advantages that Barack Obama had - she'll be 69 on Inauguration Day - but she also has a bit of a tortured history with liberal activists in her own party (the Iraq vote comes to mind). Not quite to the degree that Romney had a problem with the teabaggers, but it's not insignificant.

3) The election will not be decided by the principal parties who are running. What will decide it is simply this: post-midterms, how much influence will the tea party have? If they still have a strong influence like they did in 2012, where they basically cost Mitt Romney the election by costing him the middle, then Hillary will win the election. If, however, conservatives can get behind a proverbial "RINO" who is a bit more towards the centre - someone like Jeb Bush or Chris Christie - then I think the GOP will win. That's very bad news for social liberals, because even when the teabaggers got into power after 2010, it wasn't the economy they attacked; it was anything involving women's rights, in the name of Jesus.

The Tea Party won't be gaining any momentum in 2016, don't worry.

[TonyMontana]

Republicans are probably gonna push Paul Ryan. He's a decent choice at the moment and could probably beat Clinton, but he'd get beat pretty easily by Biden. Christie is probably the Repiblicans best bet to actually win, but the democrats are going to continue their three year job of making shit up about him so he loses the independent votes.

Paul Ryan has no shot in hell of reaching high. Not even the conservatives like him cause he's such an idiot much like his confederate white nationalist dad and the rest of the Libertariantards that think their free market god is going to fix everything.

The Republicans want Jeb Bush, and it makes sense, cause they love their monarchy-like Bush family of war criminals.

They usually nominated an old rich white guy for the sake of nominating an old rich white guy.

The GOP is done. Their ideals are out dated, people are sick to death of their class war where they hate everyone who's not rich and white, and people are starting to realize that the fascist Christian idealogy they push down our throats is out dated (and sexist) along with all the founding father fetish since that shit is so out of date since they didn't even live to see tooth paste in existence. America is totally backwards compared to the rest of the world. We are one of the only countries left where worker's don't have any rights and we've totally done away with unions cause we're too busy waving flags and shouting "We numbah one!" to realize that the state of country we live in is incredibly fucked up and horrible.

The Republicans literally gave the last election to Obama on a silver platter cause Mitt Romney was such an unlikable asshole that no one wanted to vote for him except for the rich exploiter class, and/or dumb white people that are scared of a black man having a second term. Just look at the things Paul Ryan says and you are thankful everyday that neither one of those assholes in suits are in office.

It don't matter who wins the next election. The Democrats are right wing too, they just are not as hardcore right wing as the Republicans. Shit don't change in America. We act like it's going to change, we say it's about to change, and it never does. The sentence changes here and there, and the party changes, but it's still no different. It all comes back to the class war in the end - rich people looking down at you and treating you like cattle. You are nothing but cattle to them. And it don't matter who wins the next election. If it's a Republican, you're just going to get screwed with a lot harder than you're used to. If it's a Democrat, it will slow down the pain but not much will chance, we'll still be slaughtering brown people in the middle east until 2014, and the big businesses will still be wiping the floor with your rights when they work you down like a slave, cause we just can't admit that capitalism is an evil unhuman nature that has ruined us. Oh no we can't admit that cause the 1% need more money off the expense of the rest of us working like dogs.

[TonyMontana]

The Tea Party won't be gaining any momentum in 2016, don't worry.

People said that when the neo-nazi tea baggers first popped up. But then the Koch Brothers called and donated some ass loads of money to their campaign.

Never count out the money, in America that's what wins every single time, and the Koch Brothers have been the shadow money funneling all that hardcore White nationalist-Libertarian shit from day one.

Edited April 17, 2014 by TonyMontana

[TonyMontana]

3) The election will not be decided by the principal parties who are running.

It's never decided by that anyway. Both parties are the same principal. They are not the same thing, but they follow for the same path. Both of them are in for the money, waging imperalistic wars, giving money to the banks and corporations, etc.

There is no "left wing" in America. You only have right and super right. The Democrats are just as right as the Republicans, only not as hardcore as it. Real leftism does not exist in America cause they sold you the kool aid a long time ago about the Red scare and all that cold war propaganda is still going strong to this day. It always amuses me that we've accepted communism, socialism, and marxism as bad terms, but we are not allowed to accept capitalism as a bad thing.

Obama really is quite the conservative under the skin. He gets called a communists yet he does absolutely nothing to resemble a Marxist, let alone be labeled as one.

Has he went after big business? Nope. The healthcare thing was a big step forward, and that too, is a capitalist contradiction. Those insurance companies are going to make billions of dollars from Obamacare. That's what conservatards forgot in their rant fest about it, cause they are psychopaths of course, they have to get something out of everything meanwhile calling the rest of us "welfare bums and leechers".

Business profits have soared under Obama, they are at record numbers - the highest of any president since Ronnie Raygun. All this talk about him being this super liberal is total bullshit.

Part of it is not his fault though, cause Americans hate their government. Everything gets blamed on the government even when it's not their fault. Government has very little control anymore. They haven't had a lot of power since the conservatives totally shook the foundation and gutted it away in their paranoia that "big government" might go after corporations.

To Obama's credit, he does try on some things, but trying is all he can do. Government does not have the power to enforce law like everyone wants to think they can. That's why these corporations get off with human rights violations and treating workers like slaves. it's total corporate revolution through unregulated capitalism - the damage is already done and there is no way to reverse it.

Hillary is a joke too. The entire democrat party is full of sell outs and she's #1 with that term. Where was Hillary to wave the rainbow flag for gay rights back in the day? She didn't start supporting them until recently now that it's became acceptable. Now it's OK for her to support them. Her opinion is the opinion of the masses, cause that's how you win votes.

Hillary voted for the war in Iraq, and voted for the bombings before and after that. She didn't start complaining about the war until the American Idiot got tired of seeing negative war stories on the tele-tube. Where were the democrats back in the day to argue about the fucking Patriot Act? They voted for it and acted surprised that it was a fascist law after it passed.

Don't let any of those jackasses on Faux "News" try convincing you that Obama and Hillary want to commie up the nation. Trust me, I fucking wish they did.

Edited April 17, 2014 by TonyMontana

[jiodi]

I think you should take all this vitriol and step back and think about how you present your argument. You basically sound like the same kind of people on the right that you are shitting on, just with different buzzwords.

Paul Ryan has no shot in hell of reaching high. Not even the conservatives like him cause he's such an idiot much like his confederate white nationalist dad and the rest of the Libertariantards that think their free market god is going to fix everything.

Holy god, what?

The Republicans want Jeb Bush, and it makes sense, cause they love their monarchy-like Bush family of war criminals.

No they don't. The Republicans have no idea who the hell they want at this point. The party is in pieces. If you mean old school establishment Republicans then, yeah, maybe. If the Bush family are all ready and willing marionettes for big money then Jeb Bush is a good plan for them.

Also, pretty much every president can be considered a "war criminal".

They usually nominated an old rich white guy for the sake of nominating an old rich white guy.

Keep in mind that prior to the 2008 election EVERYONE nominated old rich white guys.

The GOP is done. Their ideals are out dated, people are sick to death of their class war where they hate everyone who's not rich and white, and people are starting to realize that the fascist Christian idealogy they push down our throats is out dated (and sexist) along with all the founding father fetish since that shit is so out of date since they didn't even live to see tooth paste in existence. America is totally backwards compared to the rest of the world. We are one of the only countries left where worker's don't have any rights and we've totally done away with unions cause we're too busy waving flags and shouting "We numbah one!" to realize that the state of country we live in is incredibly fucked up and horrible.

Conservatism, by its nature, generally falls behind policy-wise and culturally. What bothers me about your ravings are how rage-filled you seem to be about it. These posts could replace all the anti-right buzzwords with anti-left buzzwords and it would look exactly like any given comment on the Fox News website.

Each party has latched on to their demographic, the faith-based message is meant to cater to their demographic. While I disagree with the messages I wouldn't start calling people fascists and crap just because they have a particular view.

Workers have more rights than many other countries. The wealth gap is ridiculous, though. I read somewhere about how like 1k or 1200 minimum wage hours equals one CEO hour of work. We need to do more to protect the working folks, but playing the blame game all day isn't how to get it done.

The Republicans literally gave the last election to Obama on a silver platter cause Mitt Romney was such an unlikable asshole that no one wanted to vote for him except for the rich exploiter class, and/or dumb white people that are scared of a black man having a second term. Just look at the things Paul Ryan says and you are thankful everyday that neither one of those assholes in suits are in office.

I agree with most of this except that a Mitt Romney presidency would be any different than Obama's. Hell, Romney would prolly have put out Romneycare nationwide and msnbc would be saying how shitty it was and Fox News would be calling it the most amazing thing in the world.

It don't matter who wins the next election. The Democrats are right wing too, they just are not as hardcore right wing as the Republicans. Shit don't change in America. We act like it's going to change, we say it's about to change, and it never does. The sentence changes here and there, and the party changes, but it's still no different. It all comes back to the class war in the end - rich people looking down at you and treating you like cattle. You are nothing but cattle to them. And it don't matter who wins the next election. If it's a Republican, you're just going to get screwed with a lot harder than you're used to. If it's a Democrat, it will slow down the pain but not much will chance, we'll still be slaughtering brown people in the middle east until 2014, and the big businesses will still be wiping the floor with your rights when they work you down like a slave, cause we just can't admit that capitalism is an evil unhuman nature that has ruined us. Oh no we can't admit that cause the 1% need more money off the expense of the rest of us working like dogs.

This is one of the reasons this shit doesn't change. Everyone wants to blame someone but nobody wants to take any responsibility. I agree that both parties are shitty and just established corruption, but we absolutely cannot change anything but saying woe-is-us and talking about how everything is screwed up and if my ideology is left-leaning then it's the right's fault but if my ideology is right-leaning then it's the left's fault.

People said that when the neo-nazi tea baggers first popped up. But then the Koch Brothers called and donated some ass loads of money to their campaign.

The difference between now and then is the GOP establishment is tired of the Tea Party. Which is kind of hilarious, but true.

Never count out the money, in America that's what wins every single time, and the Koch Brothers have been the shadow money funneling all that hardcore White nationalist-Libertarian shit from day one.

The Koch Brothers are laughable. The fact that they are in the limelight is the only reason we look at them as the bad guys. They're ridiculous assholes, sure, but they are nowhere near the real string-pullers. The guys who really pull the strings make it their job to stay out of public view.

It's never decided by that anyway. Both parties are the same principal. They are not the same thing, but they follow for the same path. Both of them are in for the money, waging imperalistic wars, giving money to the banks and corporations, etc.

Yep.

There is no "left wing" in America. You only have right and super right. The Democrats are just as right as the Republicans, only not as hardcore as it. Real leftism does not exist in America cause they sold you the kool aid a long time ago about the Red scare and all that cold war propaganda is still going strong to this day. It always amuses me that we've accepted communism, socialism, and marxism as bad terms, but we are not allowed to accept capitalism as a bad thing.

There is a "left wing". They're the democrats. You need to stop thinking that "right" is a label for the bad guys. Conservatism has some good ideas and there should always be a conversation before foaming at the mouth and attacking the other side just because they're the other side.

Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc etc are not good or bad inherently. They are ideologies that are great on paper. They fail when the human element is introduced and the level of corruption outweighs the system's ability to progress.

Obama really is quite the conservative under the skin. He gets called a communists yet he does absolutely nothing to resemble a Marxist, let alone be labeled as one.

Obama is a moderate. Political ideology should be separate from the establishment's corrupting influence.

Has he went after big business? Nope. The healthcare thing was a big step forward, and that too, is a capitalist contradiction. Those insurance companies are going to make billions of dollars from Obamacare. That's what conservatards forgot in their rant fest about it, cause they are psychopaths of course, they have to get something out of everything meanwhile calling the rest of us "welfare bums and leechers".

Of course Obama won't go after big business. No establishment politician will.

This kind of crap is why there is such a schism in this country. It's acidic rhetoric that does not present an argument anyone on the other side would ever want to have outside of a giant "NO U" pissing match.

Part of it is not his fault though, cause Americans hate their government. Everything gets blamed on the government even when it's not their fault. Government has very little control anymore. They haven't had a lot of power since the conservatives totally shook the foundation and gutted it away in their paranoia that "big government" might go after corporations.

To Obama's credit, he does try on some things, but trying is all he can do. Government does not have the power to enforce law like everyone wants to think they can. That's why these corporations get off with human rights violations and treating workers like slaves. it's total corporate revolution through unregulated capitalism - the damage is already done and there is no way to reverse it.

The government does not have "very little control" anymore, lol. The federal government is more powerful than it has EVER been in the past. 9/11 and the Bush administration made sure of that.

Why do Americans hate their governments? Because people love to find a bad guy and something to blame. The average American on the right hates the government because it's "too big" and the average American on the left hates the government because it's "not protecting our rights" or whatever.

We just aren't being sensible in our approach to policy because the government is rotten. It's justifiable to hate the government when everyone promises shit but nobody does anything and we all get distracted with name-calling and saying it was the other side of the aisle to fulyl realize they're partying together and snorting coke off hooker asses and yucking it up about how stupid we are.

Hillary is a joke too. The entire democrat party is full of sell outs and she's #1 with that term. Where was Hillary to wave the rainbow flag for gay rights back in the day? She didn't start supporting them until recently now that it's became acceptable. Now it's OK for her to support them. Her opinion is the opinion of the masses, cause that's how you win votes.

Hillary voted for the war in Iraq, and voted for the bombings before and after that. She didn't start complaining about the war until the American Idiot got tired of seeing negative war stories on the tele-tube. Where were the democrats back in the day to argue about the fucking Patriot Act? They voted for it and acted surprised that it was a fascist law after it passed.

Hillary is the shining star of Democratic establishment corruption. I agree with you completely here.

Don't let any of those jackasses on Faux "News" try convincing you that Obama and Hillary want to commie up the nation. Trust me, I fucking wish they did.

Why? What would communism fix if our system is crap and the people of this country are too busy trying to beat fucking Flappy Bird and argue politics over the internet (lololol) to get out and do anything about it?

Switching ideology is not the answer. We need a cultural shift and a more informed and less rapid population.

I hate these fucking political ideologies. A blanket ideological solution is not a way to fix shit. We need to have a conversation about everything individually and figure out what the best possible solution is to each thing.

The government should be big in the places it needs to be to maintain the system (healthcare, defense, infrastructure) and nonexistent in the places it has no right to be in (social freedoms, etc).

[Phoenix Wright]

The government should be big in the places it needs to be to maintain the system (healthcare, defense, infrastructure) and nonexistent in the places it has no right to be in (social freedoms, etc).

why does it not belong in social freedoms?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[Klokinator]

I've always thought Communism would be an excellent political model. The only problem is the human corruption element, as jiodi mentioned. A well-rounded and worked out communist society would be pretty great, in my opinion.

[Arch]

i thought huckabee was a GOP contender

I doubt that he runs. He's a one-hit wonder with a lucrative Fox News contract. If he ran, though, he'd probably be the nominee.

1) Fuck 2016; the Republicans are likely taking over the Senate. Lame duck presidents rarely get anything done in the first place; now, Obama's going to be fighting against a Republican house loaded with teabaggers, and a Senate that's going to be resurgent. He's going to have to have his veto pen ready...

Assuming that Republicans flip the Senate in 2014 with a slim seat margin (I think their actual prospects are being overhyped at the moment; they aren't winning in New Hampshire, Virginia, Colorado or Michigan, they're still at 50-50 odds), they'd have to fight hard to keep it in '16. They're running the incumbents from the 2010 wave that year. Pennsylvania, Illinois, Wisconsin, Florida if Rubio runs for President, and New Hampshire are all prime pickup opportunities for Democrats. Additionally, Arkansas and Kentucky could both be competitive if their current governors opt to run in '16. Edited April 17, 2014 by Arch

[jiodi]

why do it not belong in social freedoms?

I don't mean in terms of protecting them, I mean in terms of legislating and regulating them (like the insane marijuana schedule 1 thing, gay rights, etc ,etc)

I doubt that he runs. He's a one-hit wonder with a lucrative Fox News contract. If he ran, though, he'd probably be the nominee.

No way. It's one thing to be crazy popular with the base but a whole other story to get nominated. The dog and pony show is great for the party's image to the base, but they care the most about who can win on the national stage. Huckabee won't appeal to moderates or on-the-fence dems getting tired of their party.

Edited April 17, 2014 by jiodi

[jiodi]

edit: wtf this needs to be deleted

Edited April 17, 2014 by jiodi

[Arch]

No way. It's one thing to be crazy popular with the base but a whole other story to get nominated. The dog and pony show is great for the party's image to the base, but they care the most about who can win on the national stage. Huckabee won't appeal to moderates or on-the-fence dems getting tired of their party.

Give this a read. The unfortunate fact is that he is likely the best "bridge" candidate between the establishment and the more radical wing of the party. People who vote in primaries aren't as concerned about electability as you make them out to be; Mitt Romney, the "most electable" candidate, struggled against an incredibly weak field and only prevailed after every other candidate's implosion. Let's not forget that Huckabee gave McCain a run for his money in '08, too.

[jiodi]

Give this a read. The unfortunate fact is that he is likely the best "bridge" candidate between the establishment and the more radical wing of the party. People who vote in primaries aren't as concerned about electability as you make them out to be; Mitt Romney, the "most electable" candidate, struggled against an incredibly weak field and only prevailed after every other candidate's implosion. Let's not forget that Huckabee gave McCain a run for his money in '08, too.

Good article. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if anyone was nominated. And I wasn't referring to those who vote in the primaries, more to the fact that the party itself does everything it can to nudge their best candidate into voters' good graces.

[dondon151]

I've always thought Communism would be an excellent political model. The only problem is the human corruption element, as jiodi mentioned. A well-rounded and worked out communist society would be pretty great, in my opinion.

you've got to be kidding me. communism is a terrible political model. it doesn't even work that well in theory.

[Skynstein]

Stalin ruined communism.

[Superbus]

Stalin ruined communism.

Stalin wasn't communist. Maybe he was Communist, but not communist.

[Cowboy Karimov]

you've got to be kidding me. communism is a terrible political model. it doesn't even work that well in theory.

I've just come up with a simple outline of a little thing I call "Pseudo-Socialism". This doesn't abolish class structure as Communism does, but rather uses a caste system with different pay levels. If you're good you move up one and vice versa. This provides motivation, which the lack of was the main problem of Communism.

EDIT: Someone actually beat me to the punch a few years ago.

Edited April 23, 2014 by HeavyBrawlsGuy

[Excellen Browning]

That's actually just a bastardized form of meritocracy, and has been used for decades for promotions in corporate culture.

Also I'm surprised Marx still manages to attract the attention he does, considering he stole half of Hegel's ideas, said no to the rest without any sound sort of explanation and then went on to addcsome flawed stuff on his own.

[WhiskeySickFive]

From what I'm seeing, with a rapidly diversifying United States in terms of race- the only Republicans that will be viable come election time will be the moderates on social issues, like Christie.

Or, they could attempt to clean up their poor relations with people of color (if I remember correctly, Cuban-Americans are the only minority group that voted for Romney) and continue to push their conservative stance on social issues. That might be too difficult and too short-term, but then again, continuing their Southern Strategy is a short-term solution that's barely keeping Republicans relevant, and certainly hurting their future prospects in a more diverse America.

Of course Christie's the big-name moderate coming up in the next election, but I think he's going to be coming in with a disadvantage in the primaries, considering the bridge idiocy.

Jeb Bush is also a nice choice, although the fact that he's the brother of George might hurt him if he gets out of the primaries with the nomination.

I think Bobby Jindal might be a bit too far right, but we'll see what happens.

Either way, I think Democrats will have a greater overall appeal unless the Republican Party changes dramatically.

[Irony]

...and I thought politics in the UK was bad....

[Skynstein]

TonyMontana's posts are the best in the thread. Summarizes the US pretty well, and also why the US are so scared of left-wing governments rising all over Latin America.

[eclipse]

I think he blows certain things out of proportion (last I checked, the unions over here were alive and kicking), and the delivery could use some work, but TonyMontana is on the right track. I wish politics over here didn't sound so much like a sporting competition.