So, what characters are recommended for a first HHM run?

[dondon151]

yeah but roy has 15 mov

[intergalacticoh]

I just like Eli cuz he's not that hard to use to me and the payoff is p good. I'm on ch27 right now so this is all fresh in my mind

Also, define "enough" because he's 2hkoing those sword cavs and 3hkoing the lance cavs. Better than most of the party.

[BBM]

yeah but roy has 15 mov

yeah but he's using that to run away from enemies or run to the throne from very far away

[General Banzai]

I just like Eli cuz he's not that hard to use to me and the payoff is p good. I'm on ch27 right now so this is all fresh in my mind

Also, define "enough" because he's 2hkoing those sword cavs and 3hkoing the lance cavs. Better than most of the party.

Better than Bartre and Lowen and Rebecca sure

But there's no reason to use any of those losers either

He's a weaker option to go against Cavs than Marcus, Oswin, and Hector, who also happen to be better than him at all the other enemies too

[intergalacticoh]

I agree. However, Marcus is going south to save Priscilla, and Oswin and Hector aren't enough to keep the cavaliers at bay so that they don't come around and butt fuck the rest of your units. Lowen's not going west to avoid the horseslayer, so he can provide an extra wall to protect Rebecca and Serra, but here Eliwood is very useful for his good damage on the cavs, as Guy can handle the pirates and the fighters take care of the loldiers and peg knights coming at Merlinus, so he's really not needed elsewhere.

[General Banzai]

I agree. However, Marcus is going south to save Priscilla, and Oswin and Hector aren't enough to keep the cavaliers at bay so that they don't come around and butt fuck the rest of your units. Lowen's not going west to avoid the horseslayer, so he can provide an extra wall to protect Rebecca and Serra, but here Eliwood is very useful for his good damage on the cavs, as Guy can handle the pirates and the fighters take care of the loldiers and peg knights coming at Merlinus, so he's really not needed elsewhere.

You can send any joe shmoe south to save Priss. There's what, three enemies down there, plus the pirate reinforcements? Lowen can deal with that.

Marcus can charge right down the middle

[intergalacticoh]

Never argued that Eliwood is killing cavs better than Marcus. Not really sure what your point is.

[General Banzai]

Never argued that Eliwood is killing cavs better than Marcus. Not really sure what your point is.

My point is there's no reason to use Eliwood

[BBM]

My Eliwood on my current file is consistently ORKOing Cavs on C16, although I think he's a little above average. Still, nobody except Marcus, Hector, a LHM promoted Sain/Kent, Lyn, and maybe Oswin with the Horseslayer have the capability to do this at this point. That's fairly decent.

[MacLovin]

Just use Marcus alot. Use the rest as you need, and pump exp into fliers/mounts/hhm bonuses/Hector [Maybe the other 2 if they get blessed/you want geitz]

For the most part, HHM lategame is not so frusterating if you remember to buy pure water and have dudes with barrier/psychic/restore.

Oh, and you only need around 14-15 AS to double almost everything ingame, and 12 AS doubles everything short of sword dudes on foot.

I'd say go for Harken>Karel and Geitz>Wallace if you want to get more units with good bases. [And Geitz has a B bow rank!]

For the most part, HHM is fine casually. It's when you're doing ranked/LTC/Drafts that you need to have tips and unit restrictions. [iIRC, Matthew's among the most important units for ranked, and is useful for earlygame LTC/Drafts due to 6 move]

[intergalacticoh]

My point is there's no reason to use Eliwood

Saying Marcus > Eliwood so there's no reason to use him is like saying Marcus > earlygame Kent/Sain/Lowen, Marcus > Oswin, Marcus > Lucius etc.

Eliwood's tier 2 game is pretty good (unlike Oswin and sometimes Lowen), so that's one reason. He's forced on several maps, so there's another. He's got a class buster PRF weapon, so there's that. Idk why you're denying more easy manpower just cuz "Eliwood sucks"

Edited April 27, 2014 by intergalacticoh

[Florete]

Idk why you're denying more easy manpower just cuz "Eliwood sucks"

He does suck, and sucking is a good reason not to use a character. He's mostly forced on defense maps and it's never hard to keep him out of combat. His effective PRF is good against classes that use Lances either 100% or like 80% of the time, and since he has trouble doubling he still doesn't do well, and then he has to worry about his defenses, which are mediocre at best.

Someone (might have been you, might have been someone else) also said promoted Eliwood is like a Paladin, but he's more like a handicapped Paladin because he has no Axes, D Lances only from promotion, and one less move.

[XeKr]

Marcus can rampage the middle of C14 with little detriment. Priscilla recruits herself if her village isn’t destroyed (and it won't be if Marcus clears the middle so quickly).

I think the point is HHM used to get a lot of hype for the earlygame being hard. But that’s only if you try to train characters like Eliwood instead of steamrolling with Marcus. Maybe relevant if newer players want recommendations for an easy time. (or I guess it matters in ranked play but ymmv)

My Eliwood on my current file is consistently ORKOing Cavs on C16, although I think he's a little above average. Still, nobody except Marcus, Hector, a LHM promoted Sain/Kent, Lyn, and maybe Oswin with the Horseslayer have the capability to do this at this point. That's fairly decent.

What’s your definition of a little above average? 10-11 AS is a high benchmark. >_>

Edited April 27, 2014 by XeKr

[intergalacticoh]

He does suck, and sucking is a good reason not to use a character. He's mostly forced on defense maps and it's never hard to keep him out of combat. His effective PRF is good against classes that use Lances either 100% or like 80% of the time, and since he has trouble doubling he still doesn't do well, and then he has to worry about his defenses, which are mediocre at best. Someone (might have been you, might have been someone else) also said promoted Eliwood is like a Paladin, but he's more like a handicapped Paladin because he has no Axes, D Lances only from promotion, and one less move.

Tier 1 Eliwood is mediocre, sure, but look at what I posted on the last page about how he can be raised. It's so easy to train him if you know what he's capable of, and then you get rewarded with a nice tier 2 mounted unit. It's not a bad tradeoff in my opinion. I also think that was me that said that, yeah. I usually think of him as an in-between of a foot unit and a mounted one, but more leaning towards the latter.

Relying on PRF damage isn't really what he's for, it's more of a bonus so that he can damage armors and horses he otherwise couldn't touch, giving him better combat. Also, WTD is not the end of the world. It's not too hard to position him such that he's not swarmed by enemies and in range of a healer. Plus, axereaver armors, sword cavs, and nomads are death fodder for him.

[dondon151]

Tier 1 Eliwood is mediocre, sure, but look at what I posted on the last page about how he can be raised. It's so easy to train him if you know what he's capable of, and then you get rewarded with a nice tier 2 mounted unit.

not if marcus kills everything first

it's a terrible tradeoff; eliwood can't promote until chapter 26, which is super late, and at that point he's a worse paladin. no thanks.

[intergalacticoh]

not if marcus kills everything first

it's a terrible tradeoff; eliwood can't promote until chapter 26, which is super late, and at that point he's a worse paladin. no thanks.

If I'm doing efficiency/ranked/LTC/whatever, then I agree; I don't bother with him. However, this is this guy's first time doing HHM. Also, sometimes I like using Eli, so I'm just saying it's not this huge insurmountable impossibility to train and, God forbid, promote Eliwood like everyone cries about.

It's fun to shake things up and use different units; otherwise no one would use trash like Wil once in a while.

Try to have fun with the game sometimes.

[Mekkah]

This is an advice thread with some discussion about what units are good and what units are not. Whether you find it "fun" or "possible" to promote Eliwood is not relevant. Facts are:

a) using Eliwood is a bad unit to use on your first HHM playthrough, for reasons explained: he slows you down for little to no reward

b) Eliwood is not good.

You like using Eliwood and other trash units? Go right ahead, no one is stopping you. We're not being Stop Having Fun Guys here. But in the context of advice or PC comparison, there's no room on a team for Eliwood.

[XeKr]

To be fair, Eliwood gets +3 Res on promotion and gets easy +Res from his fast Hector support (Anima/Thunder). So he has that for CoD.

If I'm doing efficiency/ranked/LTC/whatever, then I agree; I don't bother with him. However, this is this guy's first time doing HHM. Also, sometimes I like using Eli, so I'm just saying it's not this huge insurmountable impossibility to train and, God forbid, promote Eliwood like everyone cries about.

It's fun to shake things up and use different units; otherwise no one would use trash like Wil once in a while.

Try to have fun with the game sometimes.

We already told him he can use any character if he likes them. No one is that unusable in HHM. Indeed, as has been commented on, basically the whole cast has been “recommended” itt.

What happened if you appeared to be arguing Eliwood is a somewhat good character, and several people here disagree, so they argued otherwise.

The implicit argument is there’s little objective gameplay reason to use Eliwood (while clearly there are other reasons, such as if you like him or like Lords or like Geitz, etc).

I don’t think anyone in particular was explicitly disparaging a playstyle, besides you just now (even if in jest. Plus, some people might find it fun).

Edited April 27, 2014 by XeKr

[intergalacticoh]

I've mentioned several times that I don't think he's that good. He is a mediocre tier 1. He is a well-rounded tier 2. He's not that hard to train. A lot of people have overlooked the gist of what I was getting at.

I actually didn't mean to disparage any playstyle, because I do have fun doing those too. I was responding to all of these comments about how inefficient using Eliwood is (even though I somewhat disagree with that) and others, because the goal of this thread is to help TC wrap his head around HHM for the first time.

I mean, everyone here has made good counter-arguments to what I've said. It's up to TC to decide whether or not Eli is worth it for him.

[Nobody]

If I'm doing efficiency/ranked/LTC/whatever, then I agree; I don't bother with him. However, this is this guy's first time doing HHM. Also, sometimes I like using Eli, so I'm just saying it's not this huge insurmountable impossibility to train and, God forbid, promote Eliwood like everyone cries about.

It's fun to shake things up and use different units; otherwise no one would use trash like Wil once in a while.

Try to have fun with the game sometimes.

Why would he waste time trying to raise a mediocre unit in the hardest chapters of the game (aka early game)?

It's not a matter of playing efficiently or not. The early units of FE7 are TERRIBLE with exception of Hector, Oswin and MAYBE Lowen. The easiest way to play the early game, efficiently or not, is to have Marcus killing almost everything. There are some chapters, like 13, which are a PAIN if you don't do that. As simple as that.

[intergalacticoh]

Why would he waste time trying to raise a mediocre unit in the hardest chapters of the game (aka early game)?

It's not a matter of playing efficiently or not. The early units of FE7 are TERRIBLE with exception of Hector, Oswin and MAYBE Lowen. The easiest way to play the early game, efficiently or not, is to have Marcus killing almost everything. There are some chapters, like 13, which are a PAIN if you don't do that. As simple as that.

This is exactly the kind of exaggeration I was talking about.

It's really not that difficult to give EXP to other characters while being conservative with Marcus. The only time where you really NEED him is for Guy's group in 13 and to save the village in 13x. Other than that, Marcus is a luxury. Early HHM is, honestly, not that hard.

[dondon151]

it's not that hard precisely because marcus flattens every enemy

[intergalacticoh]

it's not that hard precisely because marcus flattens every enemy

Yes. Marcus is a luxury. Everything I just said holds true.

[General Banzai]

Yes. Marcus is a luxury. Everything I just said holds true.

Marcus is a solid, immutable fact

His existence is non-negotiable and neither is his godhead

The #1 newbie trap for first time HHMing is trying to funnel exp onto anyone other than Marcus pre-Ch 16. Nothing they grow to be is worth the headache of trying to beat those early levels with horrendous units.

[intergalacticoh]

Marcus is a solid, immutable fact

His existence is non-negotiable and neither is his godhead

The #1 newbie trap for first time HHMing is trying to funnel exp onto anyone other than Marcus pre-Ch 16. Nothing they grow to be is worth the headache of trying to beat those early levels with horrendous units.

Seriously? You think it's a headache to use units other than Marcus pre-ch16 in HHM? Try Hector, Oswin, Lowen, Matthew, Guy, or hell, Dorcas even. Anybody should be able to use these units without pulling their hair out.