Czar_Yoshi Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 When you put it that way, I completely agree. Well, the problem with grinding is that it's very hard to specify exactly how much "some grinding" is. Some people, myself included, would have enjoyed a difficulty using Lunatic+ skills and Hard stats/distribution, because when you look at them those skills really are meant to encourage highmanning and the only reason it doesn't work well on Lunatic+ is the same reason it doesn't work on Lunatic: you get zerg rushed. Rather than trying to find a balanced amount to raise the stats of your units by, just uniformally cut the power and numbers of the enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Passive enemies are fairly trivial to deal with (bait and fight them in small groups). Aggressive enemies are more threatening. Sure some (most?) people might not like this type of gameplay, but tactically it’s more challenging to deal with properly. The pressure forces more careful positioning out of the player if you want to do it reliably (see: Lunatic earlygame). The aggro behavior of FE13 (in Lunatic at least) is quite clever and actually underrated imo. Even in chapter 4 they aggro in a particular order/schedule, and the interesting way the ranges overlap looks deliberate to me. As mentioned, the “endurance round syndrome” is an artifact of lowmanning, which happens in other FEs too (with some few exceptions, FE has generally always been more enemy phase centric and subject to this phenomena). Sure here stuff like Veteran and Rescue Staves and the exp floor exacerbate the issue, but how much “strategy” does it take for Seth or Titania to leisurely roll through their games? etc ...are you ignoring my reply? I mean I said it could be interresting if there where two more things done right: enemy placement (heck, for most of the enemies that are supposed to be militaries, they are surprisigly unorganised) and map design. Again: enemy placement random & a lot of maps with little difference but look good. Example of map I like: chapter 17, an example they could have done better: chapter 4. Chapter 4 has been one of your examples as well, but... it's litterally an empty space with enemies around it that rush you in a assigned order, there is very little you can do but hope you can swarm the enemy when it gets close enough, and that you can't if your lowmanning, well... or hope you have leveled the avatar so he can take out the knights with magic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Chapter 4 has been one of your examples as well, but... it's litterally an empty space with enemies around it that rush you in a assigned order, there is very little you can do but hope you can swarm the enemy when it gets close enough, and that you can't if your lowmanning, well... or hope you have leveled the avatar so he can take out the knights with magic... Cht.4 has a deployment cap of 6. There's honestly not that much difference between lowmanning or not, and since you can go bananas with Spotpass stuff on it it's probably the easiest chapter in Lunatic(+) either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 C4 is a bloody arena, what's more to be had? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) ...are you ignoring my reply? I mean I said it could be interresting if there where two more things done right: enemy placement (heck, for most of the enemies that are supposed to be militaries, they are surprisigly unorganised) and map design. Again: enemy placement random & a lot of maps with little difference but look good. Example of map I like: chapter 17, an example they could have done better: chapter 4. Chapter 4 has been one of your examples as well, but... it's litterally an empty space with enemies around it that rush you in a assigned order, there is very little you can do but hope you can swarm the enemy when it gets close enough, and that you can't if your lowmanning, well... or hope you have leveled the avatar so he can take out the knights with magic... Actually Chapter 4 is a good example of why "it's an empty space" is a really bad way to criticize the maps in this game. Even on Lunatic by applying some thought you can really see it's set up as a puzzle chapter there's a solution that does not require swarming the enemy, just the right positioning at the right time(turn). The enemy placement and movement turns are very specifically set up so that even if Avatar is a low level you can still do the chapter on Lunatic. It's a good show of how the enemy placement is more important to building a good challenge than the chapter being closed, open, a square, a palace or whatever...the location or even shape isn't always that important. Additionally for a walkthrough I've done for GameFAQs on Lunatic mode I've paid attention to the placement, movement patterns and reinforcement times and positions and I'd have to extremely disagree with your criticisms: "I mean I said it could be interresting if there where two more things done right: enemy placement (heck, for most of the enemies that are supposed to be militaries, they are surprisigly unorganised)" I've found the enemy placements, positioning and even reinforcements and movements(based on turn counts) could have only been made with specific intent, there's chapters where enemies that are already on the map act in organized waves based on turns rather than sitting around idle for a whole chapter(like previous games) such as chapter 9 "Emmrym" where the enemy tries to sandwich the player when the Wyvern Riders show up, chapter 12 "The Seacomers", chapter 14 "Flames on the Blue" and some spots an maps that are really good tactically(without being too obvious like they did with choke points in previous games) based on the enemy positioning. If anything this is a sort of organized behavior that actually lies above what we've seen in previous games outside loopholes like using the always aggressive behavior reinforcements as waves. Edited May 2, 2014 by arvilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeKr Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) ...are you ignoring my reply? I mean I said it could be interresting if there where two more things done right: enemy placement (heck, for most of the enemies that are supposed to be militaries, they are surprisigly unorganised) and map design. Again: enemy placement random & a lot of maps with little difference but look good. Example of map I like: chapter 17, an example they could have done better: chapter 4. Chapter 4 has been one of your examples as well, but... it's litterally an empty space with enemies around it that rush you in a assigned order, there is very little you can do but hope you can swarm the enemy when it gets close enough, and that you can't if your lowmanning, well... or hope you have leveled the avatar so he can take out the knights with magic... The fact that you’re asking this indicates you missed the point of that post and the subsequent discussion. >_> Apologizes, I’m not exactly sure how to best clarify atm, so I’ll quote this again: Basically this whole thing is a tangent, but my original point is that FE13's design is arguably quite perceptive from a streamlined strategic/tactical view. (for what it's worth) anecdotally, I've played a bunch of FE difficulties (including all the ones considered to be challenging such as FE5, FE6 HM, FE7 HHM S rank, FE9 Maniac, FE12 Lunatic', etcetc), and I'm saying I personally enjoyed how FE13 handled things, especially wrt to enemy placements, and aggro patterns (and yes, map design). arvilino excellently clarified and summarized my example (and elaborated too). Edited May 2, 2014 by XeKr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Sugary Rainbows Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 people will probably hate me for this, but i think we should just all shut up and enjoy the game. (sorry if that sounded offensive) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 people will probably hate me for this, but i think we should just all shut up and enjoy the game. (sorry if that sounded offensive) make me enjoy the game. you can't tell people what to enjoy and what not to enjoy, everyone has the right to agree to disagree. damn casuals, thinking they can just say whatever they want and be relevant to a convosation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Butterflyprince, I'd like to do that, but I'm too cheap poor to buy the console and game. If you send me A$250, I will gladly encourage others to stop critiquing it. I think this discussion is good. What arvilino and XeKr have said about the chapter design has made me re-consider my opinion on Awakening's gameplay. You don't need a well-designed map in order to have an interesting chapter; to paraphrase what Markyjoe told me, the most important thing is to keep the player thinking all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomX2 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I'm kind of struck by what SS said about characters just being their archetypes and not much more. Even if it isn't strictly true, there's the problem of all character actions feeling a bit contrived. Gangrel will be crazy because the plot needs him to be crazy. We can't expect him to think like a real human or to second-guess himself like a real person might, although I suppose he's given a simple excuse of just being crazy. Lucina has no reason not to maximally interfere with the past. Her future is in the worst-case scenario, so she should mess up as many variables as she wants to. But then she might fix problems too easily, and the story would require more complex writing to stay engaging. I don't think there's anything wrong with over-analyzing a game (although I'd really just call this analyzing). It's not like we're saying the game wasn't fun. It's good for us to know what we'd want in a game. Maybe if someone here ends up working at IS or NoA, they'll be able to think back and use this as input to make an uber Emblem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geek Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Awakening's plot is definitely its weakest point. I skip almost all the dialogue and cutscenes whenever I play through it because I just don't care. The game has plenty of strong characters, which would normally convince me to overlook the weaknesses in the story itself, but none of them are really used in the main story, with it instead focusing on the bore-fest brigade of Chrom and Robin. Gameplay's damn good though, and the supports have kept me playing this game for almost 14 months straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceBrand Posted May 3, 2014 Author Share Posted May 3, 2014 Going on about the enemy placement, they really do add more challenge than enemies placed at random. Here's an in-game example: Chapter 1 and all challenge matches have all the Risen rush at you and you're force to come up with a strategy. The difficulty comes from the enemies overwhelmingly you. When I first got to chapter 12 and saw all those Valm calaviers, paladins, bow knights, and knights, I was nervous. I thought they were going to do the typical gang rush and blitz me. Instead, they moved in a fixed order, and you could tell which squad was going to move next. Knowing which squad was coming and planning your strategy for them was both fun and challenging. The game needed more of this than zerg rushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Actually Chapter 4 is a good example of why "it's an empty space" is a really bad way to criticize the maps in this game. Even on Lunatic by applying some thought you can really see it's set up as a puzzle chapter there's a solution that does not require swarming the enemy, just the right positioning at the right time(turn). The enemy placement and movement turns are very specifically set up so that even if Avatar is a low level you can still do the chapter on Lunatic. It's a good show of how the enemy placement is more important to building a good challenge than the chapter being closed, open, a square, a palace or whatever...the location or even shape isn't always that important. It's still just an empty space with units around the edges, and yes you can beat it fairly easily, with the knights limited movement, utalising axes, and that the mages are still in awakening made of glass, and (as you said) exploiting the AI since (if I remeber correctly) the enmies have a set movement pattern. And chapter 4 I used as an example for bad map design (sorry if I wasn't clear enough), and I still say that the chapter becomes significantly easier if you have trained the avatar. I've found the enemy placements, positioning and even reinforcements and movements(based on turn counts) could have only been made with specific intent, there's chapters where enemies that are already on the map act in organized waves based on turns rather than sitting around idle for a whole chapter(like previous games) such as chapter 9 "Emmrym" where the enemy tries to sandwich the player when the Wyvern Riders show up, chapter 12 "The Seacomers", chapter 14 "Flames on the Blue" and some spots an maps that are really good tactically(without being too obvious like they did with choke points in previous games) based on the enemy positioning. If anything this is a sort of organized behavior that actually lies above what we've seen in previous games outside loopholes like using the always aggressive behavior reinforcements as waves. I'll still say that the enemy placement is very random, compare this to other fe games where they could be in their own units (like a hero leading a group of mercs) but I'll give you the reinforcements. And sitting Idle the whole chapter, it exists in awakening too, just like the earlier games, chapter 2, units won't move till you crossed the bridge, so don't be like it doesen't exsist (sorry for late reply) Edited May 7, 2014 by that one person Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Continuation (sorry, had to go on duty for a while) If anything this is a sort of organized behavior that actually lies above what we've seen in previous games outside loopholes like using the always aggressive behavior reinforcements as waves. I really think that the thing that they have patterns is to make it easier to the player to know what to do, and what I know of history, and the army of my country (since I'm serving at the moment), they don't seem to behave like armies I know of (outside of cutscenes like in the chapter "flames on the blue"), and, again, what I know of the organisation within armies (defensive and aggressive), they use very few tactics and formations (outside of flanking) I am aware of and that just makes them seem unorganised, or their leaders incompetent, which, for me, makes them feel less threatening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I'll still say that the enemy placement is very random, compare this to other fe games where they could be in their own units (like a hero leading a group of mercs) but I'll give you the reinforcements. That sort of thing actually does exist in Awakening, you just don't see it much because the range of chapters in which both promoted and unpromoted enemies are deployed is very small. The first promoted enemy is the boss of Cht.9, non-boss promotes start appearing in Cht.11 (there's a Hero leading a group of Mercs, a Sage leading a group of Mages, and a Hero in the reinforcements), and all enemies are promoted by Cht.17. The grouping thing occurs particularly in Cht.11 and 12 though where promotes are rarer. As for other points in general about unit cohesion: the maps are designed with Lunatic enemy placement and enemies are then removed for Normal/Hard, not the other way around. On lower difficulties they look quite disorganized, but on Lunatic they do make up troop formations (at least, on the maps where they have a proper military commander such as Gangrel or Walhart). The clearest examples of this are in Cht.12 and 19. I found it to be an interesting way of demonstrating the competence of leaders without using Leadership stars that do nothing but tilt the RNG in your foe's favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Continuation (sorry, had to go on duty for a while) I really think that the thing that they have patterns is to make it easier to the player to know what to do, and what I know of history, and the army of my country (since I'm serving at the moment), they don't seem to behave like armies I know of (outside of cutscenes like in the chapter "flames on the blue"), and, again, what I know of the organisation within armies (defensive and aggressive), they use very few tactics and formations (outside of flanking) I am aware of and that just makes them seem unorganised, or their leaders incompetent, which, for me, makes them feel less threatening. What armies in Fire Emblem do seem like a realistic army in terms of tactics and movements? Edited May 7, 2014 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 What armies in Fire Emblem do seem like a realistic army in terms of tactics and movements? FE4 armies move in formations, have squad leaders with Leadership stars who retreat to bring reinforcements, don't attack enemies that they can't damage, etc. A few oddities but the AI in FE4 is the most realistic, for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) FE4 armies move in formations, have squad leaders with Leadership stars who retreat to bring reinforcements, don't attack enemies that they can't damage, etc. A few oddities but the AI in FE4 is the most realistic, for better or worse. They do have an odd habit of crowding around enemies they can't hurt doing nothing while you pick them off one by one.`They also have the habit of combating archers from a distance too for some reason. Edited May 7, 2014 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 They do have an odd habit of crowding around enemies they can't hurt doing nothing while you pick them off one by one.`They also have the habit of combating archers from a distance too for some reason. honor before reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Even NPC armies move in formation and also attack enemies then try to group together back in formation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Chapter-by-chapter summary PROLOGUE Chrom: Oh look, some suspicious guy is passed out, let's rescue them!!11! Frederick: WTF WHY ARE YOU SO DUMB? HE LITERALLY HAS THE SYMBOL OF EVIL-NESS ON HIS HAND AND- Chrom: omg that was rude. D:< Lissa: Yeah ikr lol. Chrom: Hi Robin. We're the prince and princess of here so obviously it's a good idea to run around and kill bandits while protected by one knight. Robin: Oh okay. I'm beautiful, social, amazing, strong, smart etc. CHAPTER ONE Chrom: mmm bear Lissa: mmm bear Robin: mmm bear Frederick: OMG OMG EWWWW GROSSS WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Lissa: lol whatever I'm just going to go into that forest now. Chrom: omg me too!! *cutscene starts* Chrom: Lissa ruuuuuuun! I am so nice and beautiful and amazing so I have selflessly told you to escape!! *runs ahead of her without protecting her and almost gets her killed* oops lol Marth: I just literally fell from the sky. LOL I bet this isn't important at all. Yay I'm so awesome and beautiful and smart and amazing and totally not cliche. Lissa: <3 Sully and Virion: *terrible comic relief scene even though the entire game is already comic relief* Lissa: I love you, Marth!! wait come back :(( CHAPTER TWO Chrom: This is Ylisssssstol and I'm the prince. We're a very peaceful nation even though bandits attack every few chapters and Gangrel is trying to start a war. Look, new characters! Sumia: *trip* oops ow *trip* I'm coming along with you guys and not doing anything because the developers forgot to make female soldier models or something. Maribelle: I'M FABULOUS GO AWAY Vaike: yo yo yolo swag poo butt swag Stahl: I literally have no personality at all LOL Kellem: Guys, look at my single gimmick! It's funny, right? LOL CHAPTER THREE Chrom: Let's go to Regna Ferox to request soldiers for a war that hasn't started yet! Hey cool, a flying horse wearing full Yllisien armour! I but nobody's using it. Let's just take it. Sumia: Kk I'm going to treat her wounds even though she doesn't have any. Raimi: DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Chrom: omg!!! Sumia: I LOVE YOU CHROM!!! *saves chrom* I LOVE YOU CHROM!!! Chrom Fangirls: chrom x robin is canon!!!! f u sumia!!!! Chrom: kk thx. Kellem: Look at my single gimmick! It happened twice, therefore it's funny! Raimi: DIEEEE Chrom: *kills Raimi* Raimi: THANKS FOR KILLING MY SOLDIERS AND WOUNDING ME. YOU CAN COME IN NOW. Chrom: k CHAPTER FOUR Flavia: Let's have foreign people kill eachother to help us decide who should be in power! LOL. Basillio: Meet Lon'qu. He was going to be my representative guy EVEN THOUGH HE ISN'T A FOREIGN PERSON. lol Conclusion: Yes. Yes it is. Edited May 9, 2014 by Potato123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 PROLOGUE Chrom: Oh look, some suspicious guy is passed out, let's rescue them!!11! Frederick: WTF WHY ARE YOU SO DUMB? HE LITERALLY HAS THE SYMBOL OF EVIL-NESS ON HIS HAND AND- Chrom: omg that was rude. D:< Lissa: Yeah ikr lol. Chrom: Hi Robin. We're the prince and princess of here so obviously it's a good idea to run around and kill bandits while protected by one knight. Robin: Oh okay. I'm beautiful, social, amazing, strong, smart etc. acctually.. this always bothered me, that the avatar in the cutscene is clearly showing the mark and is openly walking around in grimeal cloaks in ylistol even though it's known (chapter 8) who the grimeal are (and their marks) and that they are enemies of the exalted bloodline... and yet Chrom just trusts this random shmuck they found in the field... how is he even still alive if he has allways behaved like this and not listened to Fredricks advise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 acctually.. this always bothered me, that the avatar in the cutscene is clearly showing the mark and is openly walking around in grimeal cloaks in ylistol even though it's known (chapter 8) who the grimeal are (and their marks) and that they are enemies of the exalted bloodline... and yet Chrom just trusts this random shmuck they found in the field... how is he even still alive if he has allways behaved like this and not listened to Fredricks advise? ikr. And the first four chapters are supposedly the well-written part of the game. Also in the first paralogue they mention "omg this war is so devestating and MEAN!!" even when you go to it when there isn't a war. For example, right when you unlock it. lol I literally can't tell why people like Awakening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceBrand Posted May 9, 2014 Author Share Posted May 9, 2014 ikr. And the first four chapters are supposedly the well-written part of the game. Also in the first paralogue they mention "omg this war is so devestating and MEAN!!" even when you go to it when there isn't a war. For example, right when you unlock it. lol I literally can't tell why people like Awakening The war on the Risens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Chapter-by-chapter summary CHAPTER FOUR Flavia: Let's have foreign people kill eachother to help us decide who should be in power! LOL. Basillio: Meet Lon'qu. He was going to be my representative guy EVEN THOUGH HE ISN'T A FOREIGN PERSON. lol Lon'qu is foreign. He's from the same place as the other swordmasters who spell names with an apostrophe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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