Is it wrong to over analyze Fire Emblem Awakening?

[IceBrand]

I was completely thrown by that, too. But nothing about Valm made any sense, so...

Valm: Feudal Japanese area, army uses medieval equipment and armor.

[Jotari]

I think the story would have been much better if Gangrel and Walhart were fought in a different order. For instance:

Game goes as it normally does up until Chapter 7.

Valmese show up, and Chrom and Co. are called upon to uphold their alliance with Regna Ferox.

The three leaders: Gangrel, Emmeryn, and Flavia (with Basilio tagging along) have a council and decide to raise a joint army with Chrom, Basilio, and Mustafa as leaders. The player gets Cordelia, Tharja, Henry, Olivia, and Cherche at this point.

Joint army goes through Valm Arc, with more interaction between some of the different army leaders for some maybe interesting dialogue.

Goes back to Ylisse where it turns out that Gangrel captured Emmeryn. Big battle breaks out with the Ylissians and Feroxi against the Plegians with Validar and his goons doing things in the background.

Finally goes to boss rush finale of Gangrel, Aversa, Validar, and finally Grima.

I don't think it was order that was wrong with Awakening's story. It was the pacing and writing. Really there's nothing inherently wrong with any parts of the story in Awakening. It's some standard stuff but it easily could have been a much better story then it was. They just had to care about what they were doing. For examples the Valm arc had the theme of union vs strength. Walhart believed strength conquers all while Chrom believed mercy and compassion are necessary for a ruler. They should have made it much larger and had Chrom unite the provinces against Walhart in a meaningful manner in which we actually see and get to know Valm. Instead they just powered on through and Chrom defeated Walhart's strength with his own.

And also Tiki should have been plot relevant.

[ClassyWolf]

I don't think it was order that was wrong with Awakening's story. It was the pacing and writing. Really there's nothing inherently wrong with any parts of the story in Awakening. It's some standard stuff but it easily could have been a much better story then it was. They just had to care about what they were doing. For examples the Valm arc had the theme of union vs strength. Walhart believed strength conquers all while Chrom believed mercy and compassion are necessary for a ruler. They should have made it much larger and had Chrom unite the provinces against Walhart in a meaningful manner in which we actually see and get to know Valm. Instead they just powered on through and Chrom defeated Walhart's strength with his own.

I acctually agree with you here... and I have to ask is the theme of the second arc really unity? I don't doubt you, it's just I never got it because it's so poorly told, the Cho'sin doesen't come to their aid until they have run up to Walharts castle and allready beaten him once (who knows why Chrom didn't finnish him off).

And also Tiki should have been plot relevant.

Tiki I don't even get why she is in the role she is in, since Bantu is alive, it would make more sense to me that either Xane or Gotoh (divine dragons), who are extremly loyal to Naga (while we are tould in Mystery that Tiki probably hates Gotoh & Naga), and it would acctually in a wierd way make sense for Gotoh to travel there since he is the father of all magic and that would explain why tomes are beeing used in Valm (rather than the lfe draining variant)... For that mather were did Khadein dissapear, the place were mages are beeing trained and all magic, staves and tomes, are created?

[Jotari]

I acctually agree with you here... and I have to ask is the theme of the second arc really unity? I don't doubt you, it's just I never got it because it's so poorly told, the Cho'sin doesen't come to their aid until they have run up to Walharts castle and allready beaten him once (who knows why Chrom didn't finnish him off).

Tiki I don't even get why she is in the role she is in, since Bantu is alive, it would make more sense to me that either Xane or Gotoh (divine dragons), who are extremly loyal to Naga (while we are tould in Mystery that Tiki probably hates Gotoh & Naga), and it would acctually in a wierd way make sense for Gotoh to travel there since he is the father of all magic and that would explain why tomes are beeing used in Valm (rather than the lfe draining variant)... For that mather were did Khadein dissapear, the place were mages are beeing trained and all magic, staves and tomes, are created?

Yeah Gotoh of Xane would have been cool either. Point being if you're going to throw out an ancient guardian figure who knows all about the maguffins and is travelling with your army, then show them in more than one cutscene.

[Duke of Dozel]

I have no idea why Tiki was added for a role. She isn't the only character from the first game that could live for thousands of years.

I also hate how Tiki can't shut up about Marth. Literally, she brings up nothing from the past that doesn't involve Marth (or the "Hero-King") in some way.

We also don't get any reason or backstory over the Deadlords who wield the holy weapons right before you fight Validar. Who are they, and how did the Holy Weapons appear there in the first place?

And considering that Seliph is a decendant of Naga, does that mean he's somehow related to Marths bloodline?

TOO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS!

[Czar_Yoshi]

Seliph isn't a descendant of Naga, he's a descendant of Heim who blood-bonded with Naga.

[TheWill]

It's obvious Tiki was chosen for her popularity, something Xane and especially Bantu don't have at her level.

[BANRYU]

In awakening, they probably aren't (other than makeing chapters feel more like endurance rounds), but if I repeat myself, what anoys me even more is the enemy placement, this isn't a problem with undead, after all, they don't think, they're dead, or bandits that might not be that organised, but when different millitary troops are as unorganised as they are in awakening, that anoys me.

An again about rushes, the way they are made in awakening makes it feel more like an endurance round than a map you overcame because of your strategy.

As I'm playing through the game a second time on Hard without grinding (much), this is definitely something I've been noticing that makes it feel less tactical and, well... ...fun.... than previous titles I've played like FE7 (which admittedly is pretty each) and FE10 (that's more like it). Definitely one of my bigger critiques with the gameplay nowadays....

I acctually agree with you here... and I have to ask is the theme of the second arc really unity? I don't doubt you, it's just I never got it because it's so poorly told, the Cho'sin doesen't come to their aid until they have run up to Walharts castle and allready beaten him once (who knows why Chrom didn't finnish him off).

Tiki I don't even get why she is in the role she is in, since Bantu is alive, it would make more sense to me that either Xane or Gotoh (divine dragons), who are extremly loyal to Naga (while we are tould in Mystery that Tiki probably hates Gotoh & Naga), and it would acctually in a wierd way make sense for Gotoh to travel there since he is the father of all magic and that would explain why tomes are beeing used in Valm (rather than the lfe draining variant)... For that mather were did Khadein dissapear, the place were mages are beeing trained and all magic, staves and tomes, are created?

And this is my main problem with the game's story (aside from the fact that it's sloppy and rushed)-- there's no worldbuilding. We don't get a chance to really get acquainted with this world and its locations and culture, we're just supposed to accept everything while we run blindly and heedlessly through it. TOP, I'd wager you wouldn't even mind Tiki being in the game if the backstory surrounding her and the other manaketes was properly elaborated upon and explained, for instance.

Unfortunately, all we can really do is conjecture about such things, which of course is why we have this thread to make Awakening's weak plot more tolerable for ourselves by filling in the many holes. Normally I don't even like headcanons, but Awakening practically makes them necessary to explain anything.

Edited May 12, 2014 by BANRYU

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

Valm: Feudal Japanese area, army uses medieval equipment and armor.

But it was Valencia two thousand years after FE2 and didn't feel like it one little bit.

[Damosel]

acctually.. this always bothered me, that the avatar in the cutscene is clearly showing the mark and is openly walking around in grimeal cloaks in ylistol even though it's known (chapter 8) who the grimeal are (and their marks) and that they are enemies of the exalted bloodline... and yet Chrom just trusts this random shmuck they found in the field... how is he even still alive if he has allways behaved like this and not listened to Fredricks advise?

This is definately something I overanalyze in Awakening- the severe lack of awareness for politics and character's cultrural identities/biases.

From what little is given about Ylisse's history, the last Exalt (not even a generation removed by Chrom's time) led a genocidal campaign against Plegia, likely motivated by religious differences bewteen Naga worshippers and the Grimeal (though no solid reason is really given beyond grimdark). Wouldn't this mean that there'd be prevelant tension between a Ylisse national and a Plegian? Even just commoners, not accounting for rulers and their grudge-matches. Yet NO ONE ever really brings anything of the sort up, other than Fred just being reasonably cautious of a stranger (in Plegian robes) and Chrom side-eyeing Henry (cause he's a Plegian darkmage) before he shrugs and lets him join.

I'm guessing it's cause the Devs would rather focus of friendship circles than having actual conflict within the Shepards. That and trying to depict them all as "good people" rather than having the token jerk (no Shinons to demonstrate, yes, there are racists) to integrate any sort of politics with their views or actions. Dandy and idealistic, but wow, does it even make for bland political landscapes.

I'd try to place Feroxi (the mercenary nation, yeah? Ask for troops, only care about fighting) but other than how the leading Khan is decided the game gives us zilch to go off of. Valm is a lost cause for logic if Gaiden's kept in mind.

Course it doesn't mean that Awakening has ideal political decisions/sitiations. At the end of the first Arc, Flavia saddles Plegia with ALL the war repairations- which WWI has taught us is a HORRIBLE policy to impose on a nation if it wants any chance for post-war recovery. Though it never seems to matter with the third Arc's stupid teasure chests everywhere, but still, not a very "good guy" thing to do.

Chrom also destroys the military/government of Valm then just leaves- not caring about leaving a power vaccum at all. Which is his attitude for the entire game pretty much: for Ylisse or go home. He does the same in Plegia, twice. Yet if Avatar "dies" he's mandatorily running around the countryside looking for his bestie instead of RULING HIS COUNTRY. This guy is no hero, and not great ruler material.

I don't expect complicated court intrigue from FE, but Awakening is obtuse about recognising what's actually included (or ignored) within it's own storyline. Not to mention out of the franchise its worldbuilding sucks, and can't even keep past lore straight.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

You have made many good points.

It's useless to deny that the game's worldbuilding, mythology, history and lore are all messed up.

One big fallacy that comes to mind is the whole existence of Taguels: they were needed as a Laguz homage but they ended up being a horrible mess, with no real background other than...

"Once upon a time, we were enslaved by humanz, but then Marth was all like U R EQUAL TO HUMANS to us, and he freed us and that's why he is amazing. But then a bajillion years later you human spawns killed us all in that one genocide! My mother died in muh arms and a little brother lol."

If Taguels are so hated, then why is everyone so okay with Palne?

When did Marth meet the Taguels?? Where's their country? Who commited the genocide?? Why are they hated by humans?? Why does nobody except Palne know them?? Why nobody is racist against Palne anyway?

It's not just badly written, it also feels more of a copy than a homage (same goes with the whole Grima vessel story).

[RJWalker]

They effective tried to fit in the entire beorc vs laguz plotline from 2 games, which defined a huge part of the story and played a major role in the motivations of several major characters and the backstory of all countries into one single character and couple of lines of dialogue.

Yeah...

You have made many good points.

It's useless to deny that the game's worldbuilding, mythology, history and lore are all messed up.

One big fallacy that comes to mind is the whole existence of Taguels: they were needed as a Laguz homage but they ended up being a horrible mess, with no real background other than...

"Once upon a time, we were enslaved by humanz, but then Marth was all like U R EQUAL TO HUMANS to us, and he freed us and that's why he is amazing. But then a bajillion years later you human spawns killed us all in that one genocide! My mother died in muh arms and a little brother lol."

If Taguels are so hated, then why is everyone so okay with Palne?

When did Marth meet the Taguels?? Where's their country? Who commited the genocide?? Why are they hated by humans?? Why does nobody except Palne know them?? Why nobody is racist against Palne anyway?

It's not just badly written, it also feels more of a copy than a homage (same goes with the whole Grima vessel story).

I think it was the First Exalt who freed them.

I honestly am not sure what their intention was with this First Exalt character. It's almost as if they intended him to be Marth (and Grima was intended to be Medeus), hence the various Marth comparisons like slaying an Earth Dragon with the Falchion, something about having a loyal Pegasus Knight by his side, etc but somewhere down the line, he was split into a different character but nothing was changed aside from names.

Damn near everyone I've met mistakes the First Exalt for Marth, which says a lot.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[BrightBow]

I don't think it was order that was wrong with Awakening's story. It was the pacing and writing. Really there's nothing inherently wrong with any parts of the story in Awakening. It's some standard stuff but it easily could have been a much better story then it was. They just had to care about what they were doing. For examples the Valm arc had the theme of union vs strength. Walhart believed strength conquers all while Chrom believed mercy and compassion are necessary for a ruler. They should have made it much larger and had Chrom unite the provinces against Walhart in a meaningful manner in which we actually see and get to know Valm. Instead they just powered on through and Chrom defeated Walhart's strength with his own.

And also Tiki should have been plot relevant.

I don't think something like the ending of the Valm arc could happen the way it did through mere bad executing. Too many things about these stories are just way to right in order to fall so flat on their face when it truly matters.

Now it really does feel like the Wallhart arc really, really, really should be a story that focuses on strength through union as opposed to union through strength. The appearance of the dynasties just fits way to well with that.

But more like a bad execution, it feels more like a story that was rewritten by someone who either missed or didn't care what the actual core of the story was, so that stuff that was envisioned to be vital ended up being pushed to the sidelines. Maybe with the deliberate intend of giving it the theme of "The Shepherds save the day".

Similar with Gangrel. The story seems to set everything up for a perfect story about revenge.

But Gangrel never ever represents grief, anger and revenge. He only seems to bring up the suffering of his people in order to rub it in Emmeryn's face. He is such a moustache twirling bad guy, that he himself admits his opponents to be noble and laughs about it. It's not just that the story has the wrong villain but the suffering of the Plegian people is never elaborated on, we don't know how the average Plegian feels about it. The entire crusade thing only seems to matter in regards of how hard it made things for Emmeryn when she took over the throne or to show how dastardly Gangrel is by bringing it up against Emmeryn.

Edited May 14, 2014 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

I don't think something like the ending of the Valm arc could happen the way it did through mere bad executing. Too many things about these stories are just way to right in order to fall so flat on their face when it truly matters.

Now it really does feel like the Wallhart arc really, really, really should be a story that focuses on strength through union as opposed to union through strength. The appearance of the dynasties just fits way to well with that.

But more like a bad execution, it feels more like a story that was rewritten by someone who either missed or didn't care what the actual core of the story was, so that stuff that was envisioned to be vital ended up being pushed to the sidelines. Maybe with the deliberate intend of giving it the theme of "The Shepherds save the day".

Similar with Gangrel. The story seems to set everything up for a perfect story about revenge.

But Gangrel never ever represents grief, anger and revenge. He only seems to bring up the suffering of his people in order to rub it in Emmeryn's face. He is such a moustache twirling bad guy, that he himself admits his opponents to be noble and laughs about it. It's not just that the story has the wrong villain but the suffering of the Plegian people is never elaborated on, we don't know how the average Plegian feels about it. The entire crusade thing only seems to matter in regards of how hard it made things for Emmeryn when she took over the throne or to show how dastardly Gangrel is by bringing it up against Emmeryn.

That's what i'm saying. Awakening's plot was just poorly written. The story itself is good, it doesn't need to be reworked by say moving the end of the Gangrel Arc until after the Valm Arc like someone suggested earlier. It just needs to be decently written by someone who actually gives a crap about what they're doing. It has plenty of good themes and character concepts but they failed to actually use them in a meaningful way.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

This reminds me of the whole invisible ties VS blood ties deal, a major plot message.

The Avatar, in one ending, has to kill himself to kill Grima.

Although he does it because he deeply cares for his friends, he also does it because his life and his destiny are intertwined with Grima's, because its blood ties are to strong and can't be erased.

The game never deals with this and just shoves TEH INVISIBLE TIES OF FRENDZSHIPZZZZ in our face... and to make things worse, children travel back in time to help their biological parents... :/

[Duke of Dozel]

That's what i'm saying. Awakening's plot was just poorly written. The story itself is good, it doesn't need to be reworked by say moving the end of the Gangrel Arc until after the Valm Arc like someone suggested earlier. It just needs to be decently written by someone who actually gives a crap about what they're doing. It has plenty of good themes and character concepts but they failed to actually use them in a meaningful way.

But when IS created this game, they didn't care about the story, especially in comparison to older games.

That's because FE was heading down the crapper in sales and Awakening was bound to be their last game. So they said, "Fuck it, we are going all out!" and made a totally new FE with tons of content.

Story wasn't a priority. Obviously you could tell since the game focuses more on gameplay and supports more than anything. They even had the audacity of bringing back the marriage system from FE4, albeit different in functionality.

And don't get me started on the Spotpass paralogues.

[BANRYU]

Duke I think we know the circumstances surrounding Awakening's creation, but that neither excuses nor changes the fact that Awakening's story WAS rather badly written. I'm glad it did well like it did and whatnot, keeping Fire Emblem alive, but... I'm with Jotari on this one

[Duke of Dozel]

Believe me, I'm not excusing anything: merely, I'm pointing out why it most likely stunk. A true waste of potential.

I just hope they had their fun with this and the overpriced DLC and return what made the series great.

Aside from gameplay of course...

[Jotari]

Duke I think we know the circumstances surrounding Awakening's creation, but that neither excuses nor changes the fact that Awakening's story WAS rather badly written. I'm glad it did well like it did and whatnot, keeping Fire Emblem alive, but... I'm with Jotari on this one

I'm not with Jotari here on this one. If you read back over this entire thread you can see how I pointed out the fact that story was simply not they're main priority. Awakening's story was a failure I will be the first to admit that but it is definitely excusable because they made a good game in the end. A game has multuple elements that contribute to it's quality. Story, gameplay, replayability, music, innovation etc. When it came to Awakening they made a decision to focus on everything but the story first and everything but the story in Awakening is top quality. Stories in games are nice and really improve medium but they are not paramount (unless you class Visual Novels as games in which case it kind of is). At the end of the day Awakening is, in my opinion, a great game. Sure it could have been better but the people who made it we're only human and were doing it as their job meaning they had budgets to keep and deadlines to meet. I am happy with what we got in Awakenning and if I could go back in time I would not try to change its story if it was to detract from the gameplay.

[BANRYU]

I'm not with Jotari here on this one.

....I'm sorry this just confuses me a bit... I kind of fail to see how we're not in agreement, if that's what you're implying....? o___0

If I didn't make it sufficiently clear, I would definitely agree with what you said in terms of it being a good game overall.

Edited May 14, 2014 by BANRYU

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

But that doesn't give much of an excuse: Awakening has a bad story and that's it.

They could've given us something simple but enjoyable, nothing too difficult nor stupid, even the good old PRINCE SAVES WORLD AND DRAGONS, but instead what we got is something that not only tries really hard to make you feel emotional and totally invested, but also fails at it.

Gameplay was a priority but what stops them from making a decent story?? Nothing.

[Jotari]

....I'm sorry this just confuses me a bit... I kind of fail to see how we're not in agreement, if that's what you're implying....? o___0

If I didn't make it sufficiently clear, I would definitely agree with what you said in terms of it being a good game overall.

I am saying having a lack luster story is forgivable in a game if the rest of the game is good. I was under the impression you were stating otherwise.

But that doesn't give much of an excuse: Awakening has a bad story and that's it.

They could've given us something simple but enjoyable, nothing too difficult nor stupid, even the good old PRINCE SAVES WORLD AND DRAGONS, but instead what we got is something that not only tries really hard to make you feel emotional and totally invested, but also fails at it.

Gameplay was a priority but what stops them from making a decent story?? Nothing.

The story board and concept could easily have been conceived by one person and executed by another. In the end Awakening's story is flashy and fan service in the way it caters to the Avatar. Many of us veterans might not like that but I imagine it was a very easily approachable context for newcomers to the series which is clearly the main target audience they were going for. And Awakening's story isn't vastly complex or over the top. It had the themes set for a better story but didn't use them. In a way it was too simple. The only thing that makes it seem complicated is that it is effectively three separate stories that are loosely connected. To put my point simply what stopped them from making a decent story was humanity. Multiple humans had to make this game most likely with multiple opinions on what had to be done. Multiple people likely had to implement the visuals and scripting of the game and in the end they were catering for a mass of people. Most games don't just spring out of one person's head fully formed. Awakening was a business project and every decision made with that mind set. Given how it sold, they were probably right to do what they did.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Jotari

[BANRYU]

I am saying having a lack luster story is forgivable in a game if the rest of the game is good. I was under the impression you were stating otherwise.

....I might argue otherwise... if only slightly.

I think they could have devoted time for the story without compromising gameplay, and instead cutting down on other superfluous features. For instance, I'd rather have had a passable story than have access to the retro-pandering Einherjar. I also think the writers were stretched a bit thin when it comes to writing supports, and I'm in the boat that would have rather had a few strong supports than options for every single character; people have mentioned how there's a lot of redundancy in terms of character development when it comes to a single character's supports. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a part of me that enjoys the silly high school locker room-esque supports, but another part can't help but want more meaningful conversations than some of the ones in the game. (Some definitely ARE meaningful, don't get me wrong, but others......)

Issues I have with things like the bizarre character models and boring attack animations I can forgive for reasons you stated; it's not as important when the rest of the game is good.

(Thinking on it again the spotpass Einherjar probably aren't difficult to implement so I'll rescind my statement there... the supports, tho)

Edited May 14, 2014 by BANRYU

[Jotari]

....I might argue otherwise... if only slightly.

I think they could have devoted time for the story without compromising gameplay, and instead cutting down on other superfluous features. For instance, I'd rather have had a passable story than have access to the retro-pandering Einherjar. I also think the writers were stretched a bit thin when it comes to writing supports, and I'm in the boat that would have rather had a few strong supports than options for every single character; people have mentioned how there's a lot of redundancy in terms of character development when it comes to a single character's supports. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a part of me that enjoys the silly high school locker room-esque supports, but another part can't help but want more meaningful conversations than some of the ones in the game. (Some definitely ARE meaningful, don't get me wrong, but others......)

Issues I have with things like the bizarre character models and boring attack animations I can forgive for reasons you stated; it's not as important when the rest of the game is good.

(Thinking on it again the spotpass Einherjar probably aren't difficult to implement so I'll rescind my statement there... the supports, tho)

I agree with some supports being bad but I think it's more surprising there are any good supports considering the shere volume of supports they had to have in. And I say had to because it wasn't a case of, oh let's have everyone support each other, the number of supports is directly tied to the gameplay design they were gong for. Pair up makes supports more important than ever and the decision to have child characters directly means all male and female characters have to support one another (except Sumia for...reasons?). If they cut down the number of supports it would have limited the diversity in what we could do with child characters. And once you take that fact into mind there isn't a huge abundance of same sex supports. Characters who aren't parents also get seriously shafted in the support area too (poor Tiki)

And yes Einherjar should be very easily to implement. The most cost in them was probably getting the new artwork done. In terms of gameplay they are just Avatars with a certain appearance combination and sometimes unique skills. This is painfully obvious with the black knight who looks nothing like himself to the point I'd rather they didn't include him.

[BANRYU]

I don't think there's any reason they couldn't have gone the Sumia route with most characters and limit the number of potential hubbies/waifus that each character has... y'know... like every other game. (It's not like there's not a precedence for this, as Genealogy shows.)

Granted, I appreciate the shiptastic support system for other reasons (like keeping the series alive by appealing to crackshippers lol), so I don't know how much I can really complain about it *shrug*

Hope it's better in the next game.