Best written villain?

[Czar_Yoshi]

It's more than most bosses can say (no pun intended). A lot of Valm arc bosses just yell "Rebel scum! I shall smite you in the name of the conqueror!"

And then "Defeated? But howwwww?!"

Now I'm tempted to go through the entire script and see how many lines of dialogue every NPC has (including the SPotpass Six outside of their paralogues). I bet it would be interesting.

However... Dalton, Ignatius and Farber say very little, and Walhart, Cervantes and Yen'fay say quite a lot, so I'd guess Pheros is actually right in the middle.

Well **** me that's Selena-quality characterization right there

Quantity isn't the same as quality- screentime isn't the biggest factor in determining how good a character is. Judging by how much you complain about Awakening you're the first person I'd expect to know that. What gives?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Constable Reggie]

Quantity isn't the same as quality- screentime isn't the biggest factor in determining how good a character is. Judging by how much you complain about Awakening you're the first person I'd expect to know that. What gives?

It may not be the biggest factor, but it is pretty damn important to its cause. We see Selena discussing by-the-bys with other antagonists, we see her question her country's motives; we see her act as a character throughout FE8. If you cut out all those things and make her a boss introduced in the single chapter she appears in, almost any sense of impact of the character is lost. She's no longer a character we feel uncomfortable fighting with, she's now just a completely forgettable, one-off boss character with nothing to add. Guess who fits that category.

And even if a character were decently written like Mustafa (which isn't a very particularly high bar), any sense of characterization is cut short by the fact that they're still only in one chapter. There's no time to build up the character. Adding Mustafa here and there in earlier chapters, like say holding slight resistance to Gangrel's increasingly maniacal orders would have been enough to set up Mustafa as a well characterized antagonist. Instead, he comes off as a jarring and weird juxtaposition to all the other completely fanatical Plegian soldiers.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Now we're in agreement. Much better.

[Constable Reggie]

Cool beans. I like being in agreement.

[Jotari]

I don't think anyone was claiming Pheros had the same level of characterization as Selena.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

Yes, there is. There aren't enough female bosses and grunts. Female bosses are often treated sympathetically because for the most part Fire Emblem follows the "male is normal" philosophy and therefore only developed characters have even a chance to be female unless they are in a female-only class

I do have to give Awakening some credit for Raimi, since she is probably the only female boss in the series who is neither of these things, nor is she the leader of an amazon brigade like that Swordmaster in FE4. She is just a generic boss whose role could have just as well been filled by a male without any additional changes.

Yeah, props to Raimi for existing. I mean it. She was a nice change from the status quo.

[HeoandReo]

Out of all of them, I'd say that Mustafa, Gangrel, Cervantes and maybe Walhart were the only villains I ended up finding memorable. Mustafa because even though he couldn't accept his king's actions, still aimed to fight for a greater reason. Gangrel had good supports with the male Avatar going into his backstory and development. (female not so much)

Cervantes and Walhart, while not really well-written characters, were at least much more entertaining than everyone else in the Valm arc.

Because there's so much talk about Pheros vs. Selena though, while I get what the devs were trying to do with Pheros, she's severely hindered by the fact that she only appears and is mentioned in a single map, comes in a wave of continually unmemorable bosses, only has her conversation with Chrom, and is never talked about, referred to, or even cameos again. It's the Yen'fay problem, where they're trying to shove in as much development as they can in a very small space and as a result there's no buildup or satisfaction to their arc.

Why people think she's a well-written villain again? Srsly Mustafa's the only right answer

[Constable Reggie]

It really is sad that Pheros was actually brought up in a discussion about decently written villains. Why? Because she's a woman? Why don't we talk about the villain from the chapter where you recruit Sayri? He was such a memorable villain.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[HeoandReo]

It really is sad that Pheros was actually brought up in a discussion about decently written villains. Why? Because she's a woman? Why don't we talk about the villain from the chapter where you recruit Sayri? He was such a memorable villain.

My apologies. I didn't mean to come across that way. I just... didn't really find Pheros that interesting compared to some of the other villains. I don't really know what gender has to do with it. Regardless of if Pheros was male or female I still would have had the same reaction.

I understood the question as the 'best' written villain in the game, rather than one of the well-written ones, so while Pheros is better than a lot of them, I didn't really get the impact from her than I did from the others.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Oh hey, here's an interesting metric, even if it's 100% subjective. After my first playthrough, the only bosses whose names I remembered were Garrick, Raimi, Marth, Mustafa, Gangrel, Ignatius, Cervantes, Yen'fay, Walhart, Validar, Aversa and Grima. The second playthrough added all the Plegia arc bosses except Chalard (Cht.8), Dalton, Algol and most of the Deadlords. After the third playthough, the only two I was regularly missing were Pheros and Farber (said Dark Knight boss of Say'ri's chapter). And most of the paralogue bosses, but portrait swaps don't deserve to be remembered. I also occasionally get Ardri and Chalard mixed up, but that's neither here nor there.

My point is that Pheros was one of the least memorable bosses in the main game for me.

[Jotari]

There's always going to be bosses who only appear in one chapter. At the end of the day most bosses are more filler for gameplay reasons then characters. They could have made Pheros a character who appeared multiple times before being fought (and they should have with Mustafa) but Pheros only appears in that one chapter and I believe in that one chapter she fills her role as a boss very well. They give us a backstory for her, motivation for her and a personal conversation for her. She's not meant to be a major character in the game like Selena and it's weird that people are trying to compare the two. She's just meant to be something for you to kill in that one chapter and compare to many other single chapter bosses in the game, I think she pulls it off rather well.

[Siuloir]

Walhart. Even then, he feels...sparse. The whole Valm arc needed about 4-5 more chapters.

Awakening really doesn't have a standout villian. People praise Mustafa but he's really just the game's Camus, and he's much worse at it than say, Levail.

[Refa]

I'd say Walhart. He was so cool that he got his own class (plus different ideologies being interesting enough for a villain, I guess).

[RJWalker]

Random filler villains from Thracia are better written. Maybe not visually more memorable but definitely in terms of in emotional impact.

[Jotari]

Random filler villains from Thracia are better written. Maybe not visually more memorable but definitely in terms of in emotional impact.

Some of them are, we won't be forgetting Kempf in a hurry, while others don't even get a single line...which actually thought was really cool. They had more than one boss in most Thracia chapters and some of these characters don't play any major role in the story but they're still people who did something to get their position and as such get to have a semi unique portrait. The only other game where I can remember something like that happening is in Shadow Dragon when retaking Akaneia a paladin attacks from the rear with a unique portrait but no lines.

[Refa]

FE1/FE3/FE11 actually have quite a few bosses like that.

[Constable Reggie]

My apologies. I didn't mean to come across that way. I just... didn't really find Pheros that interesting compared to some of the other villains. I don't really know what gender has to do with it. Regardless of if Pheros was male or female I still would have had the same reaction.

Nonono I"m not blaming you for anything, I'm just wondering out loud how a pheros discussion got in this thread in the first place. Why is she notable when, say, none of us know the name of that boss of the plegia escape chapter off hand? That was the point of my "who the hell is pheros" line.

There's always going to be bosses who only appear in one chapter. At the end of the day most bosses are more filler for gameplay reasons then characters. They could have made Pheros a character who appeared multiple times before being fought (and they should have with Mustafa) but Pheros only appears in that one chapter and I believe in that one chapter she fills her role as a boss very well.

Cut to Fe7/8 where a good number of the bosses were pretty well done, even the ones that only appear for one chapter. Fe7 even does some clever things with its bosses, where someone like Zagan actually affects the gameplay with his personality, in that he will actually rush you. Someone like Uhai constitutes much more empathy than the completely forgettable Yen'fay (even though Yen'fay is hyped up throughout the game, and Uhai's first mention is literally his first appearance),

Then from Fe8 you've got bosses like Pablo, who actually attacks you from behind in the next chapter a later chapter. Awakening wishes it was as creative as those two games.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[NobodiePichu]

Walhart. Even then, he feels...sparse. The whole Valm arc needed about 4-5 more chapters.

Awakening really doesn't have a standout villian. People praise Mustafa but he's really just the game's Camus, and he's much worse at it than say, Levail.

what was the big deal about mustafa again? he really had no reason to be there, or be a camus/murdock character.

also now that someone mentions him i suddenly remember Ignatius, that guy wasn't the to bad no. though he still wasn't that good.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Nonono I"m not blaming you for anything, I'm just wondering out loud how a pheros discussion got in this thread in the first place. Why is she notable when, say, none of us know the name of that boss of the plegia escape chapter off hand? That was the point of my "who the hell is pheros" line.

Actually, Mr. Plegia Escape is the only recurring boss in the entire game besides Cervantes, Aversa, Walhart, Grima and Risen Chiefs, so he may not be the best example of a forgettable boss (he's in Death's Embrace, and has a cool oneliner in Cht.21 to boot). The Paralogue bosses are the ones who really stand out for being practically anonymous what with their generic portraits and whatnot.

EDIT: Validar is also a recurring boss, and I forgot to list him. Oh, the irony.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Jotari]

Actually, Mr. Plegia Escape is the only recurring boss in the entire game besides Cervantes, Aversa, Walhart, Grima and Risen Chiefs, so he may not be the best example of a forgettable boss (he's in Death's Embrace, and has a cool oneliner in Cht.21 to boot). The Paralogue bosses are the ones who really stand out for being practically anonymous what with their generic portraits and whatnot.

EDIT: Validar is also a recurring boss, and I forgot to list him. Oh, the irony.

Wouldn't the fact that he appear in two chapters and yet still his name goes forgotten only highlight the fact that he's forgettable. I knew those two bosses shared a portrait but I didn't realize they were meant to be the same guy (or an alternate timeline version of the same guy) because so many generic bosses in the game share portraits.

[NobodiePichu]

Wouldn't the fact that he appear in two chapters and yet still his name goes forgotten only highlight the fact that he's forgettable. I knew those two bosses shared a portrait but I didn't realize they were meant to be the same guy (or an alternate timeline version of the same guy) because so many generic bosses in the game share portraits.

actually they are the same guy technically, they share the same name description and origins to an extent.

[Jotari]

actually they are the same guy technically, they share the same name description and origins to an extent.

Yeah I know that now. What I was saying is I never realized before now because his name wasn't memorable and so many bosses share portraits. I'm pretty sure a few more bosses share his portrait too.

[Buttocksinator]

To me a good villain is sympathetic, I can enjoy fighting someone more if I understand their motivations. Take for example the Black Fang from Blazing sword, Hector and Eliwood weren't fighting them because they were "evil", but simply because they were standing in the way. Even though they're on the opposite side they didn't come across as bad morally, they were just professionals honoring their Leader Brendan Reed, and their employer Nergal. Uhai and Lloyd came across as "good" or at least honorable when they refuse to kill Lyn and Nino respectively even though they are on opposite sides of the battlefield.

With that being said, Walhart is my favorite Awakening villan. Even though it is probably my favorite game in the series, I have to admit that the writing is not exactly up to par with the other games so the characters are not as well done. Of the ones I have to choose from however Walhart stands out because I can understand where he is coming from (more so than the others in Awakening that is). Walhart wants to create peace by uniting the world under one flag, and in a way I agree because absolute control means countries won't needlessly waste lives warring with each other. On the reverse Chrom believes in peaceful cooperation between nations. Both philosophies have good points and bad points like miserable authoritarian rule (ie. Walhart) and the naive assumption that everyone is just going to get along and leave one another alone (ie. Chrom). I like to ask myself, "could I see myself working for this guy?" and the answer is yes, in a certain sense Walhart's philosophy is at least morally ambiguous.

Again, Awakening is not up to snuff when it comes to writing quality but from what I have to work with Walhart stands out the most.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Buttocksinator

[Rohesia]

Doing the kids paralogues again, I'm rather fond of the villains from some of them. They're cliche, but I remember them enough to know what they did (but not their names - 3-;;). The ones I particularly remember are the ones from Gerome, Severa and Kjelle's routes. (And Owain's, but for more comical reasons, so I'm not including him.)

[IceBrand]

Simia is female, in a gender-neutral class, and definitely not for fanservice (at least not that kind). Please don't discriminate against Risen when choosing examples.

Possibly relevant, but there are also no enemy War Clerics (outside of DLC), while there are plenty of Monks, and those classes are similar enough that they might as well be the same.

Anyway yes the females of Awakening are giant walking tropes, but so are the men. It's hardly a gender-exclusive phenomenon.

Actually Pheros has 11 lines.

Old post but there was that one War Cleric in Cynthia's paralogue.