Almost OC Mafia - Game Over

[MRDRHAWK]

As much as I disagree with your opinion on me, I feel like you're actually doing a good deal of scumhunting and responding to people when they question you. Only thing I'm kinda ehh on is the fact that you're playing like Manix, but that's not an indication of scumminess by any means.

[BBM]

Cam's responses wrt this Poly read were okay I guess but his GP read just baffles me- not because I disagree with it (although I do, of course), but because literally all his questions up to now have indicated suspicion, since he was poking holes in her posts and logic, and to turn around at the end and just state that she's town for having good responses makes no sense.

[Shinori]

Idk why but I feel like there isn't much happening. I need to read over the thread again I feel to see a few people, specifically poly.

[Green Poet]

1. I literally voted for GP for one thing (or two, depending on how you're counting) and it could be summed up in a single line; I'm not going to make a wall when I could be much more concise.

2. She was avoiding giving reads or placing a vote. Do you seriously not see how this is scummy?

wrt underlined: it was literally page two of the thread there's not a lot to say.

3. You said that what FFM did was scummy. By extension, you probably think that FFM is also scummy. If he was not, in fact, your top scumread, then your vote would have been somewhere else, or you would at least have said something that might tell other people that you were scumreading other people.

4. I read the thread, identified the player who was, in my eyes, the scummiest person so far. I voted for them, and explained why. You're assuming that I made a vote on you not because I thought you were scummy, but because I wanted to make an easy out of context vote for no reason...or, y'know, you're scum and you're trying to defend a blatant OMGUS.

5. There is definitely scum intent in refusing to commit to reads or drop a vote.

6. I do not wake up, say "HEY I'M GONNA SCUMREAD GREEN POET TODAY," skip everyone else's posts, vote GP, find an excuse for doing so, and then leave.

1. No one's asking for a wall. What would have helped was any explanation as to how I'm scummiest out of those that you read, because you hadn't offered reads on anyone else. You say you read the thread, and not just my ISO, so why did you only present one read and leave?

2. How was I avoiding giving reads? I made note of plays from Shinori, FFM and Poly that I found issues with, and disclaimed that I didn't feel any of those merited a vote. That doesn't detract from the fact that I had opinions on people, and expressed them.

3. Sure, that's reasonable. But what you're saying doesn't contextualizes or otherwise warrant how Poly decided to present my words.

4. Not true.

Both of our cases aim to demonstrate why it's likely that the other is scum; I don't know where this "assume X is scum in order to prove that X is scum" falsehood comes from. Where am I saying that "If we start by assuming Euklyd is scum, so-and-so about his post affirms that he is indeed scum?"

Also, what do you have to say about my actual reasons for voting you? You think it's OMGUS and reactionary, sure. But what are actual faults in the case? Will you discredit the logic of the case because of its timing?

5. Yes, there's arguably scum intent in not committing to reads. But since I didn't think Poly, Shinori nor FFM were scum, not voting them isn't contradicting my reads.

6. Of course not.

1. @GP- your comments early on had no substance because they were just asking questions without taking any sort of stance. Take the entire exchange with Shinori for example. You started off by calling it chainsaw (how is it chainsaw? you never even voted FFM or explicitly called him scum) and then asked a few questions which delved more into game theory than anything else, and at the end you don't actually say what you think about Shinori, until just now. Your exchange with Poly rubbed me the wrong way as well, because you were twisting his question, which asked why you weren't voting FFM despite calling his play bad, into making it seem that he was trying to get you to wagon FFM with him. But then you drop that anyways really quickly.

2. Your Euklyd vote sucks because of something Cam? pointed out. How is it that Euklyd being hasty to vote you is suspicious when you voted him off just that post? If you can find him suspicious off one post, why can't he find you suspicious off a string of posts? Maybe he simply found your explanation as to why you're not voting inadequate. Your vote also hinges on his reason for voting you (being hesitant) as something that's not actually scummy when in fact it is scummy in a lot of cases. True, not all of them, but ED1 is the best time to vote people on things like this because hey, you don't have anything better to do, and using your vote to pressure someone who did something that's sort of suspicious is better than just idly commenting on the game. You respond to Cam by saying "yeah well it's as strong as an ED1 vote can be". Well if it's like that then what was the big issue with being sure about your vote before making one?

3. Your recent clarification about why FFM could be town is all good and stuff I agree with- then why spend more than one post early on talking about why he could be scum? And why is this clarification coming on page 5 and not page 2?

4. More recently, your Marth read is perplexing because he says you're suspicious for pretty much the same reasons that I'm saying you're suspicious- he just doesn't vote you for it. Why am I a good scumread while Marth is solidly town? His Cam case? What's your opinion on Eury for that matter?

1. Makes sense wrt Shinori. I thought it fit chainsaw because he voted Refa, potentially in defense of FFM. That happened on page one, and Shinori doesn't feel scummy to me now.

But how was I twisting Poly's question? He asked me why I wasn't voting FFM, so I asked in turn if he thought the he and I should. I didn't restate Poly's question itself, much less with a twisted meaning.

2. Half of this addressed above, to Euklyd.

Sure, I suppose I could have used it as a pressure vote? It might strike others as bad or scummy play that I chose not to, but I had a reason for doing so that I thought was expressed openly enough. If my one vote had mattered more that early on, then I'd have been more inclined to cast it.

Right now it feels as though people are blowing my behavior out of proportion and matching my not voting with all sorts of assumptions like not committing to reads or trying to avoid openly stating who I thought was scum - none of this happened; my reads just didn't merit a vote at the time.

3. I see where you're coming from; I could have been more concise. Sorry, I hadn't thought about everyone thoroughly.

4. This post has a lot to do with it. You seemed fine to me until you rephrased Euklyd's case and followed it, which got my attention. You've only just now replied to my questions regarding your own aspects of your case (how Shinori/Poly stuff was insubstantial, how my Euklyd vote is poor, calling FFM my top scumread), and I thought it was highly scummy that you seemed to ignore all of the things I'd pointed out were ambiguous or factually incorrect about your last post in lieu of restating it. It helps significantly now that you have addressed these.

[Green Poet]

No more efforting from me for now. Going to get caught up in the other game running.

Still not convinced about Euklyd. Poly's looking better.

If somehow I get time to post about things that aren't more responses to cases on myself, I'll start by reading some of the more prominent people like Eury and Cam.

Last thing:

One thing puzzles me about GP for sure. Why Shin as a scumread? From the looks of your ED1 content even if you thought that poly and FFM were not scummy enough to be scum it makes no sense for you to place them below an inactive? Mind elaborating more on why shin is a scumread? Gtg now though so will answer other questions later sorry al

Huh? I'm not scumreading Shin. I said it was worth looking out for more posts from him because he hadn't posted very much then.

why watch THE SHIN? Well, other than the obvious reasons of him being amazing.

Like, that's actually a closer reason to why I think he's worth watching than because I think he's scummy. I haven't even yet closely read the rest of this quoted post that I just cut out.

[Eurykins]

Trying to type out a post while I'm hungry makes the process so much slower... :(

1. I had issues with the plays from Poly and FFM. I didn't feel either were scummy enough to merit being voted; I just didn't think their posts were particularly good. They are the two that comprise my "anyone."

2. The votes on me say otherwise, though.

3. How so? What's odd to you about the timing? I think FFM's bad play doesn't merit a vote, but I think Euklyd's is comparatively worse and more likely motivated by scum intent, so I voted for him.

4. What/whose filler gameplay are we talking about?

5. Sure, I understand; there's no real weight behind a claim like "I could've made [insert bad play/OMGUS in this case] if I wanted to," and I apologize if my saying it caused confusion. Does it detract from, or give a different meaning to, my case on Euklyd to you?

Looking for your comments on my BBM case. I want to get to rereading Shinori and Cam sometime, though, since they have a lot of content out.

1. Well, it was ED1, and things were pinging you as being bad plays/scummy to some extent: How scummy do you need things to be in order to warrant a vote? (It feels more like you mentioned the points/cases, but then didn't fully commit yourself to them, which feels bad.)

2. For one, we're no longer in RVS, so actual content is there. Secondly, the votes on you are mostly do to your odd gameplay/content that's come about, which can be justified (but there are some players, I believe, who don't fully agree with the cases presented against you atm). In addition, the votes/cases that are on you NOW = outside of said ED1/RVS phase (and the cases themselves have some merit), and my comment itself that you responded to was aimed at the RVS state. Cases can strengthen or weaken with time, so the fact that votes are on you now does nothing to change that.

3. The timing felt bad for 2 reasons: You spent a while of RVS/after that justifying the fact that you found Poly/FFM scummy, but not scummy enough to bother utilizing a vote on either one, so the fact that you jumped to vote on Euklyd felt really weird. Then there's the aspect of the other timing, AKA. what felt like a hugely reactionary (some labeled it as OMGUS) vote against Euklyd for his vote/case on you. Your vote felt like it was prompted because of said vote, because his reasons for voting for you weren't so different than BBM's, if I'm not mistaken (yet you dismissed BBM's vote earlier).

4. In this game specifically? I'd put down some of FFM's blurbs [#24, 28, 34, and others], and the whole discussion/what I feel to be a misrep of what was NOT a Meta read by Refa in his comments wrt "passive-aggressive" things. Things that I really don't see as being worth noting/commenting much on 'cause those things just don't bring anything to the table, and otherwise don't do much for me in terms of reading them.

5. It felt a bit bad to me, not because it was confusing me or anything, but because it seemed like you were grasping for excuses to justify the timing of your vote and why it shouldn't be labeled as OMGUS, since "If you'd really wanted to have made one, you could've just done so at an earlier time/case."

I voted him right after I had made an RVS vote. It would've been easy to have left my RVS vote and done nothing to progress the game forwards. The fact that I didn't shouldn't be considered scummy, even if it wasn't a strong vote. His bad play is a null tell in and of itself (people have already stated why town could do it), it's his reactions and responses that made me scumread him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After his ED1, FFM's posts have improved a lot must be getting coached. In all seriousness though, the lack of scumvibes I'm getting from them (and I do feel like FFM would be more obvious by nature of not having rolled scum that much) makes me reconsider my early suspicion.

The people I'm bothered the most by at the moment are GP and Cam, but I need to read Page 5 (spoilers- I haven't read Page 5 because this post was long enough as it is) before I put down a vote on either of them. Leaning more towards GP ATM because some of Cam's actions are giving me town vibes. Also I believe her vote is on someone with like one post, which is all kinds of lazy. GP, who else is scum? To be fair, Junko and FFM also have the same issue, but I feel like they're pursuing other cases so it's not bothering me as much (still kind of bad play though). Poly is a weaker suspicion because he kind of just disappeared, but he does that as town too so meh. It'd be great if he stopped doing that. ;_;

1. The timing itself was, I thought, extremely fast and really jumpy/graspy, even for a townie, I'd think. (Like, literally 2 minutes after he posted it? It's hard to see town as being THAT eager to get out of RVS state when the majority of the game's players had yet to post anything/the game had just started.) I agree that FFM's play was bad (which is why the vote itself doesn't bother me), but the insta-jump/post on it just came off as an odd thing to see at that point in the game.

2. How have FFM's posts "improved a lot" to you? What has he said/posted as of late that's making you reconsider your prior suspicions? (You seem to glaze over the details and otherwise have a rather shallow comment wrt someone you jumped on earlier.)

3. What are your thoughts on FFM/Junko, and on their pursuits of "other cases"? You admit that they've done bad play(s), so what impact does that have on your reads on them?

4. Is Poly's suspicion based purely on disappearing/not being active, or in-game content (or a mix)? Not sure I care for the "but he does that as town too so meh" comment, either, since you're basically saying that it's OK for him to do so based on what you've seen from townie games (or otherwise excusing what he's doing).

I literally voted for GP for one thing (or two, depending on how you're counting) and it could be summed up in a single line; I'm not going to make a wall when I could be much more concise.
GP's reaction isn't making me feel any better about her, btw.

I can understand that (and it's pretty obvious that your views on her haven't really moved much since then). Was GP's actions (at the time of the post) the main thing that occurred to you then and not much else at all, or was it just the top priority concern for you (and didn't bother mentioning other cases/thoughts on the other players)?

1) I was just trying to correct what I feel was a bad play by GP. If you have a reason to vote someone that isn't OMGUS, you go for it, even if it does feel kinda graspy because at least you can explain it.

2) I'm more aware of how Frosty works mentally, and I know he's more prone to passive-aggressive stuff than a lot of others may think he is.

1. "Correcting" GP's gameplay? Sounds oddly like coaching, which is leaving a weird vibe currently. Why did you feel the need to attempt to "correct" her bad gameplay, as opposed to just pointing it out as bad gameplay (and whether it came off as possible scum intent/reads or not)?

2. I've been in enough of FFM's games to know what he tends to do and not to do, but that still doesn't change what you said: "There's plenty of people who come off as passive-aggressive as town or as scum here on SF. This isn't a relevant point." Just because someone is PRONE to doing something doesn't mean that they don't do it for a reason. Just because it may not ALWAYS being a solid case/tell against someone doesn't mean it's not a "relevant point" or otherwise serves no purpose in assessing how someone reacted in a situation. What your statement here felt like was that you were trying to justify or otherwise nullify part of an argument based on what you perceived to be FFM's personality traits/habits, and thus not worth watching/mentioning (and I highly disagree with it).

[CT075]

(psst i'm actually busy and shouldn't be here)

(note: these were automatically generated so if i fucked up let me know so i can fix the code)

CT075

Pascal

Green Poet

Polydeuces

Refa

Eurykins

BBM

Shinori

DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY

Bluedoom

Euklyd

Shin

[charlie_]

Votals 1.3

Euklyd (3): Green Poet, Junko, FFM

Green Poet (3): BBM, Euklyd, Eurykins

Junko (2): Shinori, Shin

Polydeuces (1): Camtech

Refa (1): Polydeuces

Camtech (1): Bluedoom

Not Voting (1): Refa

With 12 alive, it takes 4 to lynch and 8 to hammer. You have 45 hours left in the day.

Added Cam's ISOs to the op.

[BBM]

Idk why but I feel like there isn't much happening. I need to read over the thread again I feel to see a few people, specifically poly.

Shinori, are you scum?

[Shinori]

YEHP. I'm scum. I kill peoples.

P.S. Not really.

ALSO JUNKO COME BACK.

[Junk]

Shinori since you have posted again what are your thoughts that you were planning to say?

Also I believe Eurykins was not on GP's scumlist and Eurykins I think is voting for the samereasons as her other two scumreads so why is she left out GP?

[euklyd]

1. No one's asking for a wall. What would have helped was any explanation as to how I'm scummiest out of those that you read, because you hadn't offered reads on anyone else. You say you read the thread, and not just my ISO, so why did you only present one read and leave?

Because it was the main thing that stood out to me and I didn't have a whole lot of time. You literally said that FFM was making a "clearly antitown post" and then you say "....eh I'm not gonna vote him because it's not scummy enough" (note this is a paraphrase). There was nobody I thought as likely to be scum as you - and I still don't think anyone else is as likely to be scum as you.

re: italicized:

[spoiler=SPEAKING OF SKIMMING]

Also I'm not done with finals for another ~5 hours, so this will be my only post for the next while (assuming I know what's good for me).

wrt underlined: it was literally page two of the thread there's not a lot to say. I mean there was ALSO the whole "I HAVE FINALS" thing but y'know, ~details~

I'm not confident that anyone I could vote based on content at this time is more likely scum than not. I didn't toss out an RVS vote, by choice.

FFM's claim doesn't necessitate that he's scum, and reasonable explanations as to why he would make it have been raised.

This apparently doesn't hold true for anyone who votes you. Nor does the "there's not enough content to go on." Your vote on me was HOLY FUCK REACTIONARY and completely hypocritical (BBM outlined this well).

2. How was I avoiding giving reads? I made note of plays from Shinori, FFM and Poly that I found issues with, and disclaimed that I didn't feel any of those merited a vote. That doesn't detract from the fact that I had opinions on people, and expressed them.

"I think this is bad" is not a read. "This is bad but I don't think this person merits a vote" is scummy (when you don't say why they don't merit a vote). What is keeping you from dropping a vote in RVS? The unwillingness to drop a vote or even say that you're scumreading someone reeks of self-consciousness.

I also find it interesting that you're voting me for making a vote on you instead of someone else when you've literally said that other people weren't being scummy (or otherwise didn't deserve votes).

3. Sure, that's reasonable. But what you're saying doesn't contextualizes or otherwise warrant how Poly decided to present my words.

What does Poly have to do with this?

4. Not true.

Both of our cases aim to demonstrate why it's likely that the other is scum; I don't know where this "assume X is scum in order to prove that X is scum" falsehood comes from. Where am I saying that "If we start by assuming Euklyd is scum, so-and-so about his post affirms that he is indeed scum?"

Also, what do you have to say about my actual reasons for voting you? You think it's OMGUS and reactionary, sure. But what are actual faults in the case? Will you discredit the logic of the case because of its timing?

Speaking frankly? They're really poor reasons. There's not a lot of logic in the case to discredit.

Sorry, is this referring to a game mechanic?

Likewise.

##Vote: Euklyd

There wasn't enough content for me to confidently base a vote on earlier, as is typically seen from the lack of content during ED1.

You're applying a scumtell of hesitancy to vote at a point so early on in the game that it isn't reliable, and you're using it instead of judging and deconstructing any actual content. Your vote doesn't take into account anything else I've said, nor my explanation for not voting, relying on a "this sort of behavior is necessarily scummy" tell rather than what's wrong about what I have pointed about others' posts.

If you just got around to reading this game, I'd expect you to have looked at others' posts and their reads to have a grasp on what everyone's saying, else you're simply picking at whichever apparent scumtell is out in the open and convenient for you to vote on. Right now, you're scum trying to contribute by relying on a false tell.

"Euklyd is voting me for a scumtell I made without considering reasons." It's still a scumtell even if you give reasons, unless you actually say why you REALLY BELIEVE someone is more likely to be town. As it is, you just said "These people did scummy things but I don't think they're scum."

I'll even quote your other reasons for you:

-What do you mean by "not allowed to"?

My Euklyd case runs on the reasoning that he's scum who skimmed the thread trying to find good people to vote, and chose me because not voting an apparent scumread is a general tell. This doesn't apply very much in ED1, and he should've considered my explanation for not voting, as well as any other posts in the game, before deciding to drop a vote. It's a clearly noncommittal post, and I think you're focusing too much on "Euklyd voted but GP didn't, therefore the latter is scummy" without reading the legitimacy and context of the cases behind the votes.

"Not enough content for me to base a vote on" means "I don't see obvious or inherent scuminess in any of the few posts in the game so far." When something pops up that pings me as much as Euklyd's post has, I think it merits a vote. And maybe you don't, so that's why I'm explaining my thought process.

-His case on me borrows elements from Euklyd's (which I'd already addressed), and he doesn't respond to anything I've said about his post before rephrasing the same things.

This is an awful case and it holds absolutely no water. I did consider your explanation for not voting. It was bad. Also you really can't complain about me voting you for doing scummy things when you explain why you do them unless your explanation is a really good one (spoiler: it wasn't).

@Non-committal - My post was not non-committal. I said "I think what GP is doing is scummy. I'm voting her for it." YOUR posts, on the other hand, were extremely non-committal.

5. Yes, there's arguably scum intent in not committing to reads. But since I didn't think Poly, Shinori nor FFM were scum, not voting them isn't contradicting my reads.

"reads." Your so-called reads were a pile of waffling.

2. Half of this addressed above, to Euklyd.

No, you didn't:

Your Euklyd vote sucks because of something Cam? pointed out. How is it that Euklyd being hasty to vote you is suspicious when you voted him off just that post? If you can find him suspicious off one post, why can't he find you suspicious off a string of posts? Maybe he simply found your explanation as to why you're not voting inadequate. Your vote also hinges on his reason for voting you (being hesitant) as something that's not actually scummy when in fact it is scummy in a lot of cases. True, not all of them, but ED1 is the best time to vote people on things like this because hey, you don't have anything better to do, and using your vote to pressure someone who did something that's sort of suspicious is better than just idly commenting on the game. You respond to Cam by saying "yeah well it's as strong as an ED1 vote can be". Well if it's like that then what was the big issue with being sure about your vote before making one?

underlined are things that weren't addressed.

Let me be perfectly clear. Right now I'm not mostly scumreading you for your RVS play (although it was scummy). Right now I'm scumreading you for blatant hypocrisy and a completely reactionary attitude (and also your play at the beginning, but it's not the MAIN COMPONENT).

[Shinori]

JUNKO ARE YOU SERIOUSLY BEING THIS DENSE?

One thing puzzles me about GP for sure. Why Shin as a scumread? From the looks of your ED1 content even if you thought that poly and FFM were not scummy enough to be scum it makes no sense for you to place them below an inactive? Mind elaborating more on why shin is a scumread? Gtg now though so will answer other questions later sorry al

This was your last post which really doesn't answer my question.

You just questioned part of GP's reads but that seems really poor.

Also don't really like Junko's posts. He pretty much only comments on BBM and Euk while ignoring GP who seems to be at the center of a lot of attention. Junko what are your opinions on GP? If you have a read on Euk you should have some sort of read in GP

The fact that you apparently have no opinions of GP until just now where you start questioning him makes me question your Euk vote. So you have yet to give me a read on GP and you are just now questioning him when he should directly correlate with your Euk vote.

Fine with my vote here.

[CT075]

junko

[Bluedoom]

##Unvote

The sudden "I'm townreading GP" baffles me and I'm still wary of you, Cam, but pursuing this any further would be a waste of time, for now.

I was townreading Junko but Shinori makes a good point about Junko avoiding giving a read on GP. This is worrying but not scummy enough to warrant a vote considering Junko apparently hasn't had much freetime to post.

Shin on the other hand seems to be fooling around with his vote choices. The first vote on Poly was, I should say, subpar, because it was literally based off of his reaction wrt FFM's claim. The voteshift to Junko, however, makes no sense because he could have done the same at the time he voted Poly and nothing would've changed. Junko and Poly have similar activity levels, so that isn't an issue here. However, the only new reason Shin would have to vote Junko would be the fact that he called Shinori's vote lazy.

I just can't see how calling Junko calling Shinori's vote lazy is a good reason for Shin to shift his vote priority from Poly-->Junko.

Eurykins' last wall gives me no idea about her scumread priorities or anything of that sort. Its just full of quotes from various players she has problems with, and that frankly isn't helpful when I don't have an idea of her priority.

[Bluedoom]

Oh I forgot about this ##Vote: Shin

Personally think you're being very lazy with your scumhunting and that's bad.

[Eurykins]

Eurykins' last wall gives me no idea about her scumread priorities or anything of that sort. Its just full of quotes from various players she has problems with, and that frankly isn't helpful when I don't have an idea of her priority.

Priorities were listed at the bottom of my first post; the content and questions I've put forth (and answered) has done nothing much to really change any of said priorities.

I don't like the vibes I'm getting from GP, I don't trust Junko, and FFM has done nothing to nullify any of the questions/issues I had. The only changes would be Poly and Refa pinging me atm (given the notions above), but the first three still harbor my highest suspicions atm.

[Junk]

## unvote The reason why I even voted this person in the first place was because I felt as if his vote felt to easy and that he skimmed the thread and when he saw that GP was under a lot of pressure he voted her. It seems to be that this time he did not just take a quick glance at the thread and had a better opinion. Since we had similar reasons for voting Euklyd I am interested to know what GP thinks about this since Euklyd backed up his reasoning more now.

@cam Yeah I missed that comment that GP made on FFM. sorry about that

PEDIT: Mind explaining how shin was being lazy blue? PEDIT: computer did not load bluedooms reasoning post so disregard that

Sorry for not giving thoughts earlier. School was starting soon and yeah. Shinori to be honest I am finding it hard to form an opinion on her right now. I don't actually think we have seen much content from her besides a ton of defending herself and maybe her occasionally calling something scummy. We haven't actually seen her point out her other cases I think other then her Euklyd one and I guess BBM one which are pretty similar. I will admit I kind of skimmed her because most of her posts were just massive walls countering Eury's posts from what I can remember.

Would like to see more on other players from her instead just defending walls but I believe she said she planned to so I will wait a bit more. I know she has given reads but they have not really gone into much detail as of yet.

[euklyd]

Really not understanding why Cam is townreading GP. Reasons would be nice; right now it looks like ~vibes~

Not very happy with Cocomon, but I don't really have new things to say here. His vote on me was really weak, and it looks like he's basically just sheeping GP's terrible case and then adding some fluff. His interactions with GP are pretty weird as well.

Poly, it sounds like you're not entirely convinced of your Refa case. Do you still think he's scum? Is there anyone else you think is scum? You're not doing a lot of commenting on anyone else you think might be scum. Are you scumreading GP (or me)? You sound like you're kinda waffling on her.

2. How have FFM's posts "improved a lot" to you? What has he said/posted as of late that's making you reconsider your prior suspicions? (You seem to glaze over the details and otherwise have a rather shallow comment wrt someone you jumped on earlier.)

This is a good question that should be answered imo.

Also Refa - when are you planning to read Page 5? And 6 and 7 too, for that matter. You say you're bothered by GP, Cam, FFM, and Cocomon; why aren't you voting?

I can understand that (and it's pretty obvious that your views on her haven't really moved much since then). Was GP's actions (at the time of the post) the main thing that occurred to you then and not much else at all, or was it just the top priority concern for you (and didn't bother mentioning other cases/thoughts on the other players)?

It was the main thing I was concerned with, and I didn't have a lot of time. Wasn't seeing the issue with Refa's FFM vote, chainsaws/buddying/what-have-you were lame, but GP was the top-priority thing. So, not bothered by anything else to nearly the same extent, didn't have a whole lot of time, and didn't feel a PRESSING NEED to comment on other things.
So, ALL OF THE ABOVE.

[Refa]

Junko felt like he tried too hard to put interactions with other players in the game (IE. GP and BBM) by asking them things we already know/had seen them posting about earlier. In addition, all he said was "GP's an interesting one" and never really gave any reads or thoughts concerning her. Seems like a "free-pass-to-GO" in terms of sliding GP under the radar, and the padding statements/questions also feels like they're there to avoid the notion of "He totally fails to account for what others have said as well." (Point used against Euklyd) from being applied to himself as well.

FFM sounded like he was sheeping Junko's case on Euklyd earlier (whom they find scummy due to his vote on GP), as well as speaking against BBM for his case against GP (possible buddying aspect here?).

I was bothered by Junko's/FFM's chainsaw defense of GP (which is to say, defending her by attacking her attackers and not giving a read on her herself), but it's not actually scummy unless she flips scum or they're scumreading her.

TL;DR - I think BBM is scummy and Euklyd is arguably so as well, and would appreciate if thoughts were given on those cases rather than my lack of voting FFM.

-It rides an already established case. Scum has difficulty finding people to pin as scum; scum!BBM's play facilitates that process.

From your wording (BBM is scummy and Euklyd is arguably so as well), it makes BBM out to be your #1 scumread. Now, that makes no sense because you've barely said anything about him (yeah you've made replies but nothing regarding his alignment), so why is he such a strong scumread if that's the case (and if he is your #1 scum read, I question why your vote is on Euklyd)?

BBM doesn't have problems scumreading people as scum, lol (coming from someone who was scumbuddies with him recently).

Secondly:

"There were people who hadn't posted, and chances are at that, during ED1, every vote was being placed on town because the only players that will stick out to scumhunting townies are other scumhunting townies with differing opinions."

2. RVS votes were scattered amongst multiple people (and meant little to nothing, given RVS phase), so what makes you so sure that, amongst said votes, all were on town and not scum?

3. Also, you're assuming with the last part that scum cannot "openly (visually) scum-hunt" with the rest of the players in the thread, which is inaccurate. Scum are going to appear like they're scum-hunting because it's what's needed in order to gain town cred and otherwise remain under people's radars.

(IGNORE THIS) Don't you have a scumread on GP? Like...you're voting her? Yet you're saying that during ED1, every vote was being placed on town...how did you get that impression?

Wait hahahahahaha...oh my god...I'm so bad. I thought that was YOUR POST. HOW DID I THINK THAT I LITERALLY READ GP'S POST RIGHT BEFORE THIS WHAT THE FUCK. Anyways, it's obvious that part totally slipped under my scumdar; I don't get why she assumed all of the votes were on town, especially considering she said there wasn't enough information to determine if FFM was scum (which would at the very least imply a null read).

Your comment above seemed to say/imply that only scumhunting townies (with different opinions) will stick out them. When there could be just as active "scumhunting scum" likewise attracting attention or otherwise being memorable just the same (if not moreso) in order to blend in with the crowd.

The only scumhunting scum around these parts is SB (couldn't resist).

oh yeah after staying up for really long writing a history paper and repeatedly getting excited at seeing refa posting (before eventual disappointment) i'm going to bed so don't expect more spamposting

I hope my post made your morning.

-Yes, thanks >.<

-I don't have good scumreads on anyone other than Euklyd and BBM, though I'd note that Shin is worth keeping an eye on only by virtue of not having posted very much.

Cam and Eury are null to me; it's difficult to parse between any objective scum intent they may have in their posts, and their cases on me that I don't like because of my bias. Their posts and many questions do very clearly look for scum, at least.

Marth and Shinori read solidly town. I disagree with some of the points Poly has raised but I don't think it says much about his alignment.

I don't get why Cam and Eury are null for you. Like from what you say they're town and the only issue is that they have cases on you (fun fact- Cam said he was townreading you, although I dunno if he mentioned that at the time of this post so it could be a moot point). Agree with your townreads though.

Cam's secrecy is a little perplexing. Whilst there's some sort of logical pattern to it, I'm puzzled as to why "not confusing people" would take priority over solidifying a read. His behaviour is also really avoidant, like, he'll post something in reply which will have some meaning, but in a really roundabout way. Whether this is part of his plan doesn't really matter, it comes across as unhelpful. Euk, it's possible to be voting for one person and to talk about another, although I do agree that it appears that Cam's more suspicious of GP than Poly from his posts.

Yeah, I'm bothered by Cam as well. I just don't see why he'd be so secretive as town. It's just really annoying for me because on one hand I am getting town vibes from his posts but like he does some scummy things (like this, in addition to his vote on Poly) that make me unsure of how to read him overall.

Honestly? I don't know what to think of Refa. He just kinda left after I did specifically citing the case on FFM being blown out of proportion (obviously a jab at me, but w/e). On the other hand, his case did come before GP's, and after I re-read it more carefully, it's kind of making me feel better about him and worse about GP? Still kinda iffy on him because I kinda skimmed his wall post, but I'll give a more concrete read on him later.

Not specifically at you, there were multiple people. Also I don't even get what your read is on me. In some posts you cite feeling better on me, but here you say iffy and it's like why are you waffling so hard on me, bro?

Poly's looking better.

why

1. The timing itself was, I thought, extremely fast and really jumpy/graspy, even for a townie, I'd think. (Like, literally 2 minutes after he posted it? It's hard to see town as being THAT eager to get out of RVS state when the majority of the game's players had yet to post anything/the game had just started.) I agree that FFM's play was bad (which is why the vote itself doesn't bother me), but the insta-jump/post on it just came off as an odd thing to see at that point in the game.

2. How have FFM's posts "improved a lot" to you? What has he said/posted as of late that's making you reconsider your prior suspicions? (You seem to glaze over the details and otherwise have a rather shallow comment wrt someone you jumped on earlier.)

3. What are your thoughts on FFM/Junko, and on their pursuits of "other cases"? You admit that they've done bad play(s), so what impact does that have on your reads on them?

4. Is Poly's suspicion based purely on disappearing/not being active, or in-game content (or a mix)? Not sure I care for the "but he does that as town too so meh" comment, either, since you're basically saying that it's OK for him to do so based on what you've seen from townie games (or otherwise excusing what he's doing).

1. Your argument doesn't make any sense because you're saying "I can't see town being THAT eager to get out of RVS" but you're not stating why it's scummy. Basically you're fearmongering on what would be an otherwise townie action which is bad.

2. He stopped being passive aggressive and making comments that did nothing to progress the game forwards (specifically, after his WTF late RVS vote on Cam). I don't really agree with his logic but it's not coming across as townie and I can see a natural progression in his reads (hence why I'm not bothered by him).

3. I specifically said bad play because while it wasn't pro town, I wasn't reading the play itself (voting for basically an inactive at the time) as scummy because they were still pressuring other reads.

4. If someone is inactive as town as well as scum, then it would be folly to scumread him just for that, wouldn't you say? I'm not scumreading people in a vacuum here, if they do generally scummy things as town as well then that is going to play into my read. My goal isn't to lynch the scummiest player, but the person who FMPOV is the most likely to actually flip scum (yes, there IS a difference). I am bothered by Poly because he exhibits similar behavior as scum as well, but until he does more it's going to be hard for me to decipher his alignment.

YEHP. I'm scum. I kill peoples.

P.S. Not really.

ALSO JUNKO COME BACK.

SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUMSCUMBBM'SCUMMETASCUMSCUMSCUM

Now that I'm done with my replies, I'll have my overall reads (although honestly you should be able to get a good feel for them from this post), lynch priority, and vote in the next post (which is coming to a forums near you very soon). GET HYPE.

[Refa]

2. He stopped being passive aggressive and making comments that did nothing to progress the game forwards (specifically, after his WTF late RVS vote on Cam). I don't really agree with his logic but it's not coming across as scummy and I can see a natural progression in his reads (hence why I'm not bothered by him).

fuck typing

[MRDRHAWK]

Poly, it sounds like you're not entirely convinced of your Refa case. Do you still think he's scum? Is there anyone else you think is scum? You're not doing a lot of commenting on anyone else you think might be scum. Are you scumreading GP (or me)? You sound like you're kinda waffling on her.

I re-read him, and I'm honestly not sure where to lie wrt his scumminess. I kinda feel like he & GP may be buddies, but... idk. He kinda vanished around the same time I did, so I can't get much from him past the prior read. Like, it's weird.

Speaking of GP, I'm not a fan of much of her content, but I haven't been able to formulate a case yet. There's quite a few factors in this, and I'll get up what I have in a bit.

ugh refa cut me

I'll respond later

[Refa]

Yeah, I don't have a vote out because I'm dumb and lazy and FE13. Time to rectify that.

##Vote: Green Poet

Also Refa - when are you planning to read Page 5? And 6 and 7 too, for that matter. You say you're bothered by GP, Cam, FFM, and Cocomon; why aren't you voting?

Wasn't bothered by FFM and Cocomon. They've made some bad plays (like FFM's ED1 and chainsaw defenses of GP) but aren't scum reads; additionally Cocomon explained his read on GP and it seems in line with all of his previous content, so I feel better about him as a whole.

Anyways, lynch priority and reads.

Green Poet > Polydeuces > Shin > Cam > Everyone Else > Shinori > Bluedoom > BBM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Refa

Green Poet is on the top because of questionable plays (like that whole not voting debacle at the beginning), making a bad vote on Euklyd and not really expanding on it later, and generally spending more time defending herself than scumhunting. Already stated what bothered me about Poly, and I feel like he's voteparking me who FHPOV is a null read. Shin is there because after rereading through his content, I do agree with Bluedoom that his scumhunting has been lazy. Like the actual votes don't bother me themselves but the reasoning behind them seems forced. Still, he hasn't really put out that many posts as of yet, so his position here is the most subject to change depending on his later posts. Despite Cam doing more objectively scummy things than Poly (like his Poly vote and being overly secretive with his reads), his general play has been better which makes me feel worse about lynching him overall.

[Refa]

I can explain my townreads if people want me too, but otherwise /effort.

[Bluedoom]

I feel like Refa's last couple of posts wrt his Cam read are p bad.

First he says that he is bothered by Cam but he's getting town vibes. I honestly do not know what's giving him town vibes and that's just too easy to say.

Then he says Cam's play has been objectively scummier than Poly's , but then says his play is better, which is wtf? What part about Cam's play is better or makes you feel better, Refa? And why is Cam below Shin in his priority list, when Cam has posted more and done things SCUMMIER THAN POLY according to him?