I still don't get the praise of this game...

[Jotari]

I usually go with -SKL.

Greatest response in the entire thread.

[RJWalker]

Nice qualifier; otherwise you'd have to acknowledge that a story-important character martyred herself on the base of a cliff. That would have been awkward.

No really, killing playables would be silly. Didn't we learn this lesson in Final Fantasy 7?

Because story important NPCs die all the fucking time in Fire Emblem. And Awakening still doesn't have the guts to actually do it since Emmeryn is somehow alive anyway.

Emmeryn matyring herself is nothing special compared to the many, many examples across Fire Emblem especially since Emmeryn's complete stupidity is the only reason any of it happens.

[Interceptor]

Lol. There was a plenty of character development for Hector. He matures into a proper leader after starting off as a reckless, arrogant noble. The same goes for Eliwood (we actually see him going through the pain of the death of a family member and the "death" of Ninian unlike Chrom, who's just angry and barely even cares that Emmeryn is "dead"). [...] We hardly see Chrom getting over Emmeryn's "death." None of the main characters are interesting in the slightest: Chrom and Lucina are robotic and emotionless [...]

Chrom is "just angry"? Are you quite sure that you paid attention to Awakening's story? Like, anything that happened in Ch 9-11?

We can't say the same for FE13. There were plenty of chances for some form of development: for example, when the Avatar comes up and goes through with a particularly horrific strategy (I believe it involved lighting enemy ships on fire and killing a lot of people). We could've seen the moral consequences for the Avatar, and how much he/she feels bad for killing enemy soldiers, but we see nothing.

Sounds insufferably preachy. Do you realize that the Avatar is supposed to be an extension of the player?

[...] while the Avatar is by far the greatest Mary Sue in all of Fire Emblem.

Ahh. I guess you didn't.

I'm giving them credit for trying something different other than the general formula.

"General formula" in this case, is a simplistic and very specific framework of your own creation. I don't see how you've added anything interesting to the conversation by throwing out any portion of the story that doesn't fit into your designated buckets. Particularly considering that you've dubbed this the "main problem" with the story in Awakening.

EDIT:

Because story important NPCs die all the fucking time in Fire Emblem. And Awakening still doesn't have the guts to actually do it since Emmeryn is somehow alive anyway.

Emmeryn matyring herself is nothing special compared to the many, many examples across Fire Emblem especially since Emmeryn's complete stupidity is the only reason any of it happens.

I can't really respond to any of this without clarification on the cake issue.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Interceptor

[The Geek]

FE4 gen 1: Most of the main characters die.

FE7: There's no evil empire and no dark dragon being brought back from death.

FE9: The main character is a mercenary, and there's no dark dragon being brought back from death.

FE10: You fight a goddess instead of a dark dragon, and no one close to the main characters dies

Pelleas says hi.

Edited June 9, 2014 by The Geek

[arvilino]

We can't say the same for FE13. There were plenty of chances for some form of development: for example, when the Avatar comes up and goes through with a particularly horrific strategy (I believe it involved lighting enemy ships on fire and killing a lot of people). We could've seen the moral consequences for the Avatar, and how much he/she feels bad for killing enemy soldiers, but we see nothing. We hardly see Chrom getting over Emmeryn's "death." None of the main characters are interesting in the slightest: Chrom and Lucina are robotic and emotionless while the Avatar is by far the greatest Mary Sue in all of Fire Emblem.

That wouldn't make any sense, it's Flavia's decision to burn the ships to begin with, why would the Avatar taking responsibility/consequences for the person who's actually in charge's decision during all out war? It'd be a pretty big defining characteristic on a character who's supposed to represent any player if they're sensitive and always taking the blame or can't handle death when he/she had taken part in a war previously where he/she killed many people and commanded the way the rest of the Shepards killed Plegians.

Additionally the only character that would even object and prioritize sacrificing everyone and allowing the continent conquered is "dead" at that point in the game.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[Chiki]

Pelleas says hi.

1. Pelleas isn't close to Micaiah. I was talking about family members.

2. Pelleas's death may not even be canon!

That wouldn't make any sense, it's Flavia's decision to burn the ships to begin with, why would the Avatar taking responsibility/consequences for the person who's actually in charge's decision during all out war? It'd be a pretty big defining characteristic on a character who's supposed to represent any player if they're sensitive and always taking the blame or can't handle death when he/she has took place in a war previously where he/she killed many people and commanded the way the rest of the Shepards killed Plegians.

Additionally the only character that would even object and prioritize sacrificing everyone and allowing the continent conquered is "dead" at that point in the game.

This is plain false, and I haven't read the script in ages. His idea, his responsibility. Common sense. Even Flavia says it!

Flavia

Only you could hatch such a brilliant scheme, Robin. Who else would desert half our vessels and turn them into flaming cannonballs?

Chrom is "just angry"? Are you quite sure that you paid attention to Awakening's story? Like, anything that happened in Ch 9-11?

Why, yes. Let's take a look at the script and let's see all his reactions to most things Emmeryn related:

Chrom

Gangrel! You die today!

Mustafa

Emmeryn would not have wished for this to come to bloodshed.

Chrom
Don't speak her name!

And then, at the end of chapter 10, he quickly gets over Emmeryn's death from encouraging words from everyone:

Chrom

...Thank you, everyone. Your words mean more than you could know. My Shepherds... My warriors... There is work to be done. Gangrel must be stopped so that peace can once again reign in Ylisse. Will you help me?

No one in their right mind can call this good character development. See for yourselves:

http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Chapter_9:_Emmeryn_(Script)

http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Chapter_10:_Renewal_(Script)

http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Chapter_11:_Mad_King_Gangrel_(Script)

Sounds insufferably preachy. Do you realize that the Avatar is supposed to be an extension of the player?

Ahh. I guess you didn't.

Why does it follow that, if a character is an extension of the player, then the extension must be a Mary Sue? The character could've been based on a personality quiz of the player, for example. It's a shitty response, lol.

"General formula" in this case, is a simplistic and very specific framework of your own creation. I don't see how you've added anything interesting to the conversation by throwing out any portion of the story that doesn't fit into your designated buckets. Particularly considering that you've dubbed this the "main problem" with the story in Awakening.

It's pretty intuitive. The problem with that the story is that all the major plot points (the things that go into the general formula) are very predictable. It's the reason why people dislike FE6 so much. It's not rocket science.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Chiki

[arvilino]

This is plain false, and I haven't read the script in ages. His idea, his responsibility. Common sense. Even Flavia says it!

Yep, you definitely haven't.

Flavia

We've little choice but to try anyway. Plegia had no men to spare, but they were generous with other supplies...including oil. Perhaps a clever tactician could find a use for that.

Robin

Hmm... Perhaps he/she could.

Flavia

If we can put their ships to flame, they'd have nowhere to escape to. We could—

Basilio

You could roast us all like hams! Are you truly so eager to die, woman?!

Flavia

Do you have a better idea, oaf?! ...The problem is we have no catapults. Hmm... How to get the lit oil on their decks without our own ships getting caught in the blaze?

What the Avatar comes up with is the idea to send burning unmanned ships at the enemy ships, not the idea of burning the enemy ships in the first place.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[Interceptor]

Is that the best example you can come up with? Come on now.

It was just one that I stumbled on. Since most of the Supports in FE7 are nearly impossible to see in the course of an actual game, it's not like I have a huge bank of them available to draw upon.

There are plenty of great supports in FE7, such as Matthew/Jaffar, all of Renault's, Pent/Fiora, Hector/Serra, Oswin/Priscilla, and Dorcas/Vaida. Yeah, some supports aren't really good, like Eliwood/Lowen, but there's more great than lackluster in this case.

You and I have very different definitions of "great". What's so great about Matthew/Jaffar? Is it the repeated "....."? The cringeworthy line about Matt being stopped by Leila, or her final words? The weird inappropriateness of any of this stuff taking place on a battlefield? And what about Renault? Are his conversations interesting because two of the partners are dumbasses, another one is involved in the orphaning coincidence of the century, and two rounds of Deep Thoughts™ with Isadora and Canas?

These read like "bad" and "less bad" to me, unless you mean relative to other things in the series, in which case I'll concede that they are "great" compared to the completely generic Mad Libs style of Radiant Dawn.

[RJWalker]

It was just one that I stumbled on. Since most of the Supports in FE7 are nearly impossible to see in the course of an actual game, it's not like I have a huge bank of them available to draw upon.

You and I have very different definitions of "great". What's so great about Matthew/Jaffar? Is it the repeated "....."? The cringeworthy line about Matt being stopped by Leila, or her final words? The weird inappropriateness of any of this stuff taking place on a battlefield? And what about Renault? Are his conversations interesting because two of the partners are dumbasses, another one is involved in the orphaning coincidence of the century, and two rounds of Deep Thoughts™ with Isadora and Canas?

These read like "bad" and "less bad" to me, unless you mean relative to other things in the series, in which case I'll concede that they are "great" compared to the completely generic Mad Libs style of Radiant Dawn.

Indeed, we have different definitions of great. They're certainly far greater than vomit inducing crap Awakening tries to pass off as 'conversations'.

[Chiki]

Yep, you definitely haven't.

What the Avatar comes up with is the idea to send burning unmanned ships at the enemy ships, not the idea of burning the enemy ships in the first place.

You don't get the point lol. This is just childish nitpicking. My point was that this could have been used as character development since Robin was responsible for that idea.

[Loki Laufeyson]

This paragraph sounds like it was written by a kid, both in content and in form.

In terms of the story, it's pretty clear Awakening is a lot worse than many other games. Just look at FE9 and FE7. There's a lot of character development in both games. The main problem with the story in Awakening is that it's really similar to many other Fire Emblem games: someone important to the main character dies, the lord and his team take on an evil empire and kill an evil dragon brought back to life. Nothing about that is special. At least FE9, FE7, FE5, FE10 and FE4 (at least the first part) all tried to do something different. The worst part is that the Avatar is a complete Mary Sue who has no flaws whatsoever. I doubt anyone can name a single flaw or a mistake of the Avatar's.

The gameplay is probably the most broken out of any FE game. You know there's something wrong with the game when there's a lot of people effortlessly duoing Lunatic mode with the Avatar and Chrom.

Fucks. Not. Given.

I think you've completely forgotten that the Avatar is intentionally a Sue. They are literally a self-insert. We are supposed to project ourselves into them as a form of wish fulfillment. The Avatar has no visible flaws because of this. This is also one of the reasons im kinda sad that we didnt get Silent Avatar Option for the localization. Its even easier to self-insert when you have a silent protagonist.

Bolded, gods forbid people can play Lunatic. Btw, its not exactly effortless unless you grind and/or use Nancy Mode. Lunatic still provides a challenge, especially in those first few chapters. It sounds to me that you are more upset that people can get through this game on higher difficulties with a large variety of strategies. That way, you no longer feel special in being able to lowman and low turn a high difficulty. Boo hoo.

[arvilino]

You don't get the point lol. This is just childish nitpicking. My point was that this could have been used as character development since Robin was responsible for that idea.

No it couldn't, it just seems like you think the avatar should feel remorse at one point like some sort of character development check list. He/she is responsible for solving the problem coming up with the strategy, but he/she isn't responsible for the decision to burn down the Valmese fleet(Responsibility would lie on either or both Flavia and Chrom who had no reservations) .

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[Interceptor]

Indeed, we have different definitions of great. They're certainly far greater than vomit inducing crap Awakening tries to pass off as 'conversations'.

As I said, I'm not engaging in new ground with you until we resolve the cake thing. Sorry.

Why, yes. Let's take a look at the script and let's see all his reactions to most things Emmeryn related:

By which you mean, cherry-pick only the things that support your argument. Fun stuff you glossed over:

"...She did it for me, Robin. So that I wouldn't have to live with the guilt of either choice, she chose for me. She sacrificed herself rather than give up what could one day save her people..."

"And what if I can't? What if I'm not worthy of her ideals? Robin, what if I drag you down with me?"

"Emmeryn... Why did it take me so long to understand? She believed all people desire peace. She knew, deep down, the Plegians wanted it, too. It just took her to bring it to the surface."

"I hope she can see this, wherever she is... Today we put an end to Mad King Gangrel and bring peace back to the land."

"Maybe you're right... I will never be my sister. I cannot forgive men like you—men who sow nothing but evil. All I have left are her words, and her memory. Were I alone, I might be driven to madness. ...Or worse. But I'm not alone. My friends and brothers-in-arms stand behind me."

"I've tried to do my best. My sister left a weighty legacy. I do all I can just to live up to it."

You're a riot, you know that?

Why does it follow that, if a character is an extension of the player, then the extension must be a Mary Sue? The character could've been based on a personality quiz of the player, for example. It's a shitty response, lol.

My favorite thing ever about people who suggest fixes to Awakening, is that the majority of the solutions involve work/time that dwarfs the scale of the "problem". A quiz? Are you kidding me? Even when they had one of these in Dragon Warrior, it was for stat/gameplay purposes, not for the damned dialogue.

Mary Sue-ism for the Avatar is literally the organic role for a write-in; please realize that this is precisely what people do in their own fiction, and it makes perfect sense for Awakening to latch on to that. Especially with all of the waifu/husbando baloney.

It's pretty intuitive. The problem with that the story is that all the major plot points (the things that go into the general formula) are very predictable. It's the reason why people dislike FE6 so much. It's not rocket science.

Oh, it's absolutely intuitive, that's why I said it was "simple". There's no misunderstanding going on here. I'm just pointing out that your criteria is so specific (and arbitrary), that you toss nuance out the window, and thus are adding nothing to the conversation.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

No it couldn't, it just seems like you think the avatar should feel remorse at one point like some sort of character development check list. He/she is responsible for solving the problem coming up with the strategy, but he/she isn't responsible for the decision to burn down the Valmese fleet.

This is starting to get really silly. Yes, it's true that he isn't responsible for the decision. But why do you think Einstein felt guilty about developing a theory which led to the creation of the atom bomb?

It's really simple. If the Avatar hadn't come up with it, Flavia wouldn't have made the decision, and people wouldn't have died. If Einstein hadn't come up with the theory, Roosevelt wouldn't have initiated the development of the nuclear bomb, and people wouldn't have died. You're responsible as long as you're in that chain of causation which leads to the deaths of people in some non-trivial way.

But there's actually a difference here. Einstein didn't develop the theory so people could be killed. But Robin came up with the idea for the sole purpose of killing people. That makes it far worse for him. That gives him even greater moral responsibility.

By which you mean, cherry-pick only the things that support your argument. Fun stuff you glossed over:

I gave you the script for a reason. Do you honestly agree that the lines you copy pasted are any form of good character development? I doubt anyone here would agree. It's garbage.

My favorite thing ever about people who suggest fixes to Awakening, is that the majority of the solutions involve work/time that dwarfs the scale of the "problem". A quiz? Are you kidding me? Even when they had one of these in Dragon Warrior, it was for stat/gameplay purposes, not for the damned dialogue.

Mary Sue-ism for the Avatar is literally the organic role for a write-in; please realize that this is precisely what people do in their own fiction, and it makes perfect sense for Awakening to latch on to that. Especially with all of the waifu/husbando baloney.

Just a sarcastic response. No argument made here.

Oh, it's absolutely intuitive, that's why I said it was "simple". There's no misunderstanding going on here. I'm just pointing out that your criteria is so specific (and arbitrary), that you toss nuance out the window, and thus are adding nothing to the conversation.

I'm not sure how you pointed out that my criteria is arbitrary. It's the things that are common between FE1, 3, 11, 12, 6, 8 (replace dragon with demon) and 13.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Chiki

[The Geek]

Interceptor, as much as I like Awakening as well, you're really grasping at straws to try and prove it's better than the other games in the series.

[Interceptor]

I gave you the script for a reason. Do you honestly agree that the lines you copy pasted are any form of good character development? I doubt anyone here would agree. It's garbage.

Character development? Did you get lost on your way to finding where the argument started? You claimed that Chrom was "just angry", and I just eviscerated said claim with quotes directly from the script.

Just a sarcastic response. No argument made here.

Again, I guess you got lost. I'll refresh your memory.

You: "Why does it follow that, if a character is an extension of the player, then the extension must be a Mary Sue?"

Me: "Mary Sue-ism for the Avatar is literally the organic role for a write-in; please realize that this is precisely what people do in their own fiction, and it makes perfect sense for Awakening to latch on to that.

FFS, please try to keep up with your own shit; I am not your AA.

I'm not sure how you pointed out that my criteria is arbitrary. It's the things that are common between FE1, 3, 11, 12, 6, 8 (replace dragon with demon) and 13.

There are a lot of things that are common between the games. You grabbed a few, seemingly at random, and made weird exceptions in places. In Tellus, for example, when it came to whether or not Ike was a Lord. Or whether his loss in FE9 counted for FE10. And why is a demon a dragon, but a world-destroying god doesn't qualify?

Your shit is all over the place, and that's not even in the top three reasons why nobody can debate you on this issue.

[arvilino]

This is starting to get really silly. Yes, it's true that he isn't responsible for the decision. But why do you think Einstein felt guilty about developing a theory which led to the creation of the atom bomb?

It's really simple. If the Avatar hadn't come up with it, Flavia wouldn't have made the decision, and people wouldn't have died. If Einstein hadn't come up with the theory, Roosevelt wouldn't have initiated the development of the nuclear bomb, and people wouldn't have died. You're responsible as long as you're in that chain of causation which leads to the deaths of people in some non-trivial way.

But there's actually a difference here. Einstein didn't develop the theory so people could be killed. But Robin came up with the idea for the sole purpose of killing people. That makes it far worse for him. That gives him even greater moral responsibility.

The Avatar is in a situation where he/she is encouraged and even supported in coming up with the idea. I'd easily say yeah he/she is several times worse than Einstein.

The point however is, so what? The avatar avoids consequences because he/she is in a situation where he/she is supported for the idea which no one would call her out for, essentially exempt from responsibility and he/she has not reason to to feel remorse even committing a devious act. People would have died regardless of what Avatar came up with.

This certainly is getting silly since you seem to think there's a set of criteria characters like Avatar have to adhere to in terms of character development or even feelings regardless of context. When contextually in Fire Emblem Awakening differs in that the alliances of countries give the main characters less limitations of what they can get away without consequences/scrutiny in game(but seemingly more scrutiny from you,haha) compared to say Daein in Radiant Dawn when Micaiah tries to use Oil and fire.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[Interceptor]

Interceptor, as much as I like Awakening as well, you're really grasping at straws to try and prove it's better than the other games in the series.

Please, enough of this horse-race commentary already. I have no interest in hearing anyone's deep thoughts about my motivations, and I suspect that nobody is live-tweeting this thread for the Interceptor Fan Club™, so it's not clear to me that there's an audience for it.

EDIT: and really, how many people's minds have been changed by anything in this thread? Could you "prove" something better, to someone else's satisfaction, even if you tried? This stuff is mostly subjective.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Interceptor

[RJWalker]

You've latched on to a single word I accidently left in from a previous draft of the response I was typing and ignoring everything else. Congratulations. I thought I had seen it all when it comes to dodging the arguement. Regardless, it is a case of having your cake and eating it to. It gets to recreate the tradegy of FE4 without actually having the guts to create any real consequences. I'm not saying every game should kill off the entire party halfway through the game but at least FE4 had the balls to do that much. An alternate future where the good guys lost is meaningless if it only serves to make the lives of the present selves better. Emmeryn comes back from the dead and has no memory of her life so there is zero character development. Bring her back in not the problem here. Her having lost her memories robs us of the chance to see a real reaction to Chrom's actions. But no, we gotta have our amneisac waifu that's almost completely dependent on a caretake to function as a human being to appeal to some fetish.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[arvilino]

Bring her back in not the problem here. Her having lost her memories robs us of the chance to see a real reaction to Chrom's actions. But no, we gotta have our amneisac waifu that's almost completely dependent on a caretake to function as a human being to appeal to some fetish.

I doubt you have evidence it's for a fetish, you're just overreacting.

[Constable Reggie]

I doubt you have evidence it's for a fetish, you're just overreacting.

I find amnesiacs with the mentality of a child to be very sexy.

[RJWalker]

I doubt you have evidence it's for a fetish, you're just overreacting.

No, she amnesiac to appeal to a fetish. The game is not a dating sim but it sure as hell is trying to appeal to the same crowd and the romance supports foe every character with the Avatar are built upon a singular fetish. It uses the same mechanics any dating sim which is why many people call it one even though they're wrong it being an actual dating sim.

[Interceptor]

You've latched on to a single word I accidently left in from a previous draft of the response I was typing and ignoring everything else. Congratulations. I thought I had seen it all when it comes to dodging the arguement.

Well then; it appears that the student has become the master.

Regardless, it is a case of having your cake and eating it to. It gets to recreate the tradegy of FE4 without actually having the guts to create any real consequences. I'm not saying every game should kill off the entire party halfway through the game but at least FE4 had the balls to do that much. An alternate future where the good guys lost is meaningless if it only serves to make the lives of the present selves better. Emmeryn comes back from the dead and has no memory of her life so there is zero character development. Bring her back in not the problem here. Her having lost her memories robs us of the chance to see a real reaction to Chrom's actions.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. I wanted to know what a "good case" of eating your cake and still having it was, just so that we could compare. I mean, you did imply its existence by talking about a "bad case".

But no, we gotta have our amneisac waifu that's almost completely dependent on a caretake to function as a human being to appeal to some fetish.

It seems more likely that they just couldn't write her in, so the easy way out is to just make it so that she can't talk about the ninja magic that brought her back in the first place.. It was a pretty silly thing to do in the first place.

[RJWalker]

*facepalm*

You cannot be this ignorant.

I just said that the 'bad' was a leftover from a previous draft of my response.

[Interceptor]

I just said that the 'bad' was a leftover from a previous draft of my response.

Well, you said "single word", but you didn't specify which one. Could have been anything.

While I'm not concerned with stories being 'different', the good guys in an alternate future losing is a cop out. "Oh your characters didn't really die, that's just an alternate future." No, this time travel thing is a bad case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. It tries to be tragic like FE4 but it doesn't really have the guts to actually kill of playable characters.

I consider the "have some guts" or "man up" argument to be fundamentally silly. What incentive do they have to kill off a playable character, for the sake of fake edginess art? Players generally don't appreciate that sort of thing, and it would be especially the case in a series like Fire Emblem where you're actually building characters as part of the gameplay.

You say that Awakening "tries to be tragic like FE4"; I'd say that they "succeeded in not repeating shitty things from FE4".

Edited June 9, 2014 by Interceptor