I still don't get the praise of this game...

[Czar_Yoshi]

Grima and Validar specifically wanted to avoid throwing history/destiny off it's track, they worked to try and ensure all the events followed as closely as before future Avatar went back in time. Validar himself thinks all the events were pre-determined, what reason would he have to revive Grima early? Insurance? Genre Savviness?

Note Grima was revived at the latest possible point when there was no chance that the present Avatar would actually revive the dragon themself.

Grima and Validar only care about "destiny" because it ends with them winning. Do you think they'd be so obsessed with keeping events on track if that meant they were working toward their own extinction? I don't.

Thus, it's strange that they would pass up such a marvelous opportunity to further destiny's course of Grima destroying the world.

Lissa

But...what about Emmeryn!

Aversa

You changed only the method of her death. Either way, she was planted in the ground...

If the end is more important than the means, and reviving Grima is their goal, why not do it when there aren't any heroes around to stop them?

[Kokone Kirino]

Validar:

I've had your merry little band watched since Carrion Isle. Your every move!

So yeah, it was stated.

Yes, support convos do count, because they're intended features of the game. If I skip all the cutscenes with Start and don't see any of them, does that mean they aren't canon because they didn't happen on this particular playthrough?

If you want another pile of plot holes, go look at Tiki and Valm, though I'm sure there are others out there who are far more qualified to rant about them than I.

Regarding the third you mentioned. As far as I know (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) it was never outright stated that the Avatar is a self-insert. We treat him as one, as he fits the stereotype, but technically he has to be treated as a character like any other, and as such can do whatever the fuck he wants to do.

Regarding the fourth, would it be possible for the Avatar to hire a soldier or something like that to communicate with Basilio? As long as Validar doesn't see the Avatar he most likely wouldn't notice said guys' plotting, and while talking to the soldier the Avatar could just lower his voice in order to not let Validar hear everything.

That doesn't change the matter about Chrom wearing the Emblem though, admittedly.

If you look at the game as a whole, sure, support holes do count. However when people talk about the main storyline having so many holes those are excluded. If you skip everything with start, everything still happened, just you didn't watch it happening. Otherwise there would be no reason for the fights and so on. However, the thing with the supports is that, as you can choose wifes and husbands freely, none of the pairings are necessary to happen in the game, they are optional. If you marry MU to Lissa, you have a hole, if you marry him to, say, Lucina, that's entirely fine. Main story events happen, regardless of you skipping it or not. If a support happens or not is a completely free choice, thus said supports are not canon and their holes cannot be regarded as canon holes, even if they lower the game's worth as a whole.

About Valm, I have to agree with Ranger here. It was stupid to just change that.

And about Tiki, I can't know about that since I don't know her purpose in other games. In Awakening as a stand-alone at least she is perfectly fine.

[ClassyWolf]

I wonder how this topic is still going on, I haven't posted here in a while do to a certain person posting here who shall not be mentoined, mostly due to it beeing hard to argue with due to him having such a thick skull, but regardless.

About Valm, I have to agree with Ranger here. It was stupid to just change that.
And about Tiki, I can't know about that since I don't know her purpose in other games. In Awakening as a stand-alone at least she is perfectly fine.

Just going through things in the old games, I don't get her role, how she got it, or what she is doing in Valm, because there are characters that would be more fit for said role.

Gotoh, for example, the most loyal of Nagas servants and most likly still alive since he is a divine dragon and Bantu still lives, and there would be a reason why tomes and staves are used in Valm, for anyone who hasn't played Gaiden, magic in Valencia worked differently, you sacraficed health to cast a spell.

Gotoh, beeing the creator of magic in Akaneia, would explain why tomes and staves are used in Valm (for other than gameplay conviniance, I admitt it would be really stupid to have those two different ways of using magic in the same game).

The only reason I see Tiki got the role over Gotoh is boobs.

This might me beeing missremembering the script but I recall Gotoh also mentioning that Tiki will most likely hate him and Naga due to how they have treated her (forcing her to sleep to keep the world, and her, safe).

Then there is also Xane, another servant of Naga and Gotoh, who also knows a lot of the world it's happenings and history, really just the "servant of Naga" part makes me think of theese two more than Tiki.

Also I would have thought that she and Bantu would have looked for each other after Marth and Shiida died, since you get the feeling that they are important to each other, and travel togeather once more and Gotoh and Xane continue their services to Naga.

I also wonder where Khadein has dissaperead thats another story.

Also I think Awakeing would have had less ranting on it's story if it just cut out all refrencess to other games and just been a stand alone game in the series, because right now it explins so little about so much that you have to go to the earlier games to undertand a lot of it, and in that case, most of the time it wont make sense (like the manaketes, that there are no fire, ice, earth, magic or flying, only divine).

[arvilino]

Grima and Validar only care about "destiny" because it ends with them winning. Do you think they'd be so obsessed with keeping events on track if that meant they were working toward their own extinction? I don't.

Thus, it's strange that they would pass up such a marvelous opportunity to further destiny's course of Grima destroying the world.

Lissa

But...what about Emmeryn!

Aversa

You changed only the method of her death. Either way, she was planted in the ground...

If the end is more important than the means, and reviving Grima is their goal, why not do it when there aren't any heroes around to stop them?

They desire them to go exactly as planned, following what happened in the previous time line is obviously top priority(since it guarantees a future where Grima rules) followed by alternatives that mirror the actual event(which have their flaws). They are convinced that the sequence of events will stick to the previous time line as long as they prevent meddling(Lucina), I keep saying it they are not genre savvy.

Also Validar doesn't "win", he summons a dragon which destroys all human civilization, note how he's not present in the future past DLC. He's convinced that he has to keep destiny on track, not just revive Grima.

(It's also the preferable scenario that they have present Avatar become the vessel for Grima as not only it follows event more closely, it wouldn't have the flaw that allows the dragon to be killed by present Avatar instead of just sealed hence the desire for the future Avatar to combine with the one from the present).

Edited June 14, 2014 by arvilino

[eclipse]

Arguing? Is that what this thread is about?

Time travel is always a sticky subject, which is partially why I don't take the story too seriously. As for why the maps happen. . .is exposition necessary?

[Czar_Yoshi]

They desire them to go exactly as planned, following what happened in the previous time line is obviously top priority(since it guarantees a future where Grima rules) followed by alternatives that mirror the actual event(which have their flaws). They are convinced that the sequence of events will stick to the previous time line as long as they prevent meddling(Lucina), I keep saying it they are not genre savvy.

Also Validar doesn't "win", he summons a dragon which destroys all human civilization, note how he's not present in the future past DLC. He's convinced that he has to keep destiny on track, not just revive Grima.

(It's also the preferable scenario that they have present Avatar become the vessel for Grima as not only it follows event more closely, it wouldn't have the flaw that allows the dragon to be killed by present Avatar instead of just sealed hence the desire for the future Avatar to combine with the one from the present).

Well, of course they want time to follow it's original course- because they won in the future. Again, they only care about destiny because it says they win. If destiny said Naga wins, Chrom and co would be the ones going on about "you can't change fate!" and Validar would be trying to change it.

So since they value winning over destiny, why not revive early?

Also, villains can very much win posthumously if their plan doesn't require them being alive to work. Sometimes it even involves them dying. For Validar, winning means reviving Grima, not living happily ever after.

Arguing? Is that what this thread is about?

It would seem so.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Interceptor]

It's not 'handcuffed' to the past. Whether it's better or not is not the question but changing it just for the sake of changing it and not even doing anything with it is stupid. All the references it makes are ultimately meaningless to the plot. So why reference them at all if you can't even get the reference right?

You're right that it's not handcuffed; they ignored it and did what they wanted to, when merging the various bits of lore from the past games into the mega-world of Awakening. They haven't done anything with it yet; we may see something with it in another title, or perhaps they ran out of time to do something with it in this one. No way to know.

I don't think that you understand that the reference is "right" no matter what; you can tell Hideo Kojima that he's a crazy person and his story is dumb, but you can't really tell him that he's wrong. It's his story.

Does Yen'fay fighting for Walhart change the fact that Excellus trying to have Say'ri killed anyway? No. The first chapter on Valm, we see Say'ri in a situation that would definitely resulted in her death had it not been for the Shepherds. Yen'fay is an idiot.

It's important that you understand that in the following two scenarios:

A) the danger of being in a rebellion

B) the danger of being in a rebellion AND having people actively head-hunting you

... not only is B more dangerous, but it doesn't even carry the hope/prospect of an end that involves getting to live, i.e. surrender/imprisonment. Naive.

I wonder how this topic is still going on, I haven't posted here in a while do to a certain person posting here who shall not be mentoined, mostly due to it beeing hard to argue with due to him having such a thick skull, but regardless.

It's going on because people have shit to say to each other. Your passive-aggressive potshots at anonymous contributors isn't actually required in order to keep a thread going on a forum.

[RJWalker]

You're right that it's not handcuffed; they ignored it and did what they wanted to, when merging the various bits of lore from the past games into the mega-world of Awakening. They haven't done anything with it yet; we may see something with it in another title, or perhaps they ran out of time to do something with it in this one. No way to know.

I don't think that you understand that the reference is "right" no matter what; you can tell Hideo Kojima that he's a crazy person and his story is dumb, but you can't really tell him that he's wrong. It's his story.

If he changes the details of his story, then yes, he's wrong. Even Blizzard, who constantly retcon their stories to fit whatever detail, large or small that they completely changed, admit that they got it wrong but are changing it because they care more about gameplay. Which is fine. Regrettable but fine.

While we don't know what they plan to do with it the changed details, considering the general nature of the game, it is far more likely that those references only exist for fanservice. Except their wrong. If they do anything with those references, all right. We'll see then but until they do, they got it wrong.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Ϲharlie]

I wonder how this topic is still going on, I haven't posted here in a while do to a certain person posting here who shall not be mentoined, mostly due to it beeing hard to argue with due to him having such a thick skull, but regardless.

This passive aggression is really not appreciated.

Just going through things in the old games, I don't get her role, how she got it, or what she is doing in Valm, because there are characters that would be more fit for said role.

Tiki is the daughter of Naga and is revered as some sort of avatar of her parent. Saying you don't get how she got her role is like saying you don't get how Marth, a blood relative of Anri, is the only one who can wield the Falchion.

Gotoh, beeing the creator of magic in Akaneia, would explain why tomes and staves are used in Valm (for other than gameplay conviniance, I admitt it would be really stupid to have those two different ways of using magic in the same game).

Where is it stated that Gotoh is the creator of magic on Akaneia? I know he was a powerful wizard who founded Khadein, which produced many great sorcerers, but I don't remember it being stated that he was the one who actually created magic.

The only reason I see Tiki got the role over Gotoh is boobs.

Now that's just sexist. The reason Tiki got the role over Gotoh is because she is the daughter of Naga and is now old enough to actually handle the responsibility. Tiki likely would have featured over Gotoh even if she was a he.

Then there is also Xane, another servant of Naga and Gotoh, who also knows a lot of the world it's happenings and history, really just the "servant of Naga" part makes me think of theese two more than Tiki.

Xane stated in no uncertain terms that he hated humanity because of their wretched treatment of the manaketes. Xane only aided Marth because he thought Marth was one of the few humans who was actually decent and reliable. And once again, Tiki is the daughter of Naga while Gotoh and Xane are "just" servants. You may find them more memorable, but it's hardly unreasonable that an actual blood relative of an important figure would be held in higher esteem than a servant. Edited June 14, 2014 by Starman

[arvilino]

Well, of course they want time to follow it's original course- because they won in the future. Again, they only care about destiny because it says they win. If destiny said Naga wins, Chrom and co would be the ones going on about "you can't change fate!" and Validar would be trying to change it.

So since they value winning over destiny, why not revive early?

Because one course events guaranteed victory(present Avatar becomes Grima). The other(summon early with future!Grima) has an unknown conclusion, leaves Chrom alive before Grima is summoned and risks present Avatar permanently killing Grima so there's no reason for it to be done except as a last resort(which is what happened).

Edited June 14, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

Where is it stated that Gotoh is the creator of magic on Akaneia? I know he was a powerful wizard who founded Khadein, which produced many great sorcerers, but I don't remember it being stated that he was the one who actually created magic.

Actually...

The basis of Sorcery relies on sealing nature’s hidden power into tomes and staves, and freely using those to harness great power. Hundreds of years ago, a sage created an academy here, and taught his life’s teachings to people. However, originally designed to bring happiness to people, magic was used in conflicts, and was bought and sold in masses.

The sage was disappointed, and disappeared without a trace. Although it seems hard to believe, some people say that sage was Archsage Gato.

Magic relies on containing nature's energies in "tomes" and "staves",

freely manipulating these energies to harness great power. A few centuries ago, a lone sage founded an academy here, teaching magic's secrets. However, instead of bringing happiness, magic was soon used as a tool of war and a thing to be traded. The sage was disappointed, and vanished from the pages of history. Though there is no confirmation, some say that was the Archsage Gotoh.

'Created' would be slightly inaccurate but he is the one who responsible for magic in Archanea. Without him, there wouldn't be any magic or mages in Archanea. Did he create magic? Probably not. I believe the first Holy War in Jugdral involving the Crusaders. However, there is zero doubt that all magic originated with the dragons and possibly divine dragons. The hexes and curses don't seem to exist in previous games and their presence in Awakening looks like genericization of magic.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Because one course events guaranteed victory(present Avatar becomes Grima). The other(summon early with future!Grima) has an unknown conclusion, leaves Chrom alive before Grima is summoned and risks present Avatar permanently killing Grima so there's no reason for it to be done except as a last resort(which is what happened).

Grima claims to have had to step in several times to keep events "on track" due to Lucina's meddling/Avatar's different choices. Namely, when Validar kicked the bucket in Cht.6. Things aren't so set in stone there, why do you think they would be in Cht.23 (hint: they weren't there, either). All the predestined stuff went out the window when time travel happened and Grima/Validar know it, they only talk about destiny because they won in the future.

[Jotari]

Regardless of destiny and all that, Grima and Validar's main plan is to awaken the dragon using the present Avatar and merge them all together. Even in the final battle Grima tries to convince the Avatar to join with him. Before then they reckon this is something the can easily do since the Avatar in Grima's timeline choose team evil before and many of the events are the same making it likely the influence of Grima (which was great enough to mind control the Avatar into giving Validar the Fire Emblem in the first place) is enough to supersede the power of friendship and all that jazz. It's as simple as Validar and Grima having a plan they think they can accomplish with ease but when it turns out they can't they go ahead with the backup plan that still gets them a slight less powerful evil dragon god. The events of Awakening aren't that terrible. It's only the shoddy writing that makes everything look contrived and full of holes.

[Czar_Yoshi]

OK, now that's a bit of a better argument.

[Ϲharlie]

Actually...

'Created' would be slightly inaccurate but he is the one who responsible for magic in Archanea. Without him, there wouldn't be any magic or mages in Archanea. Did he create magic? Probably not. I believe the first Holy War in Jugdral involving the Crusaders. However, there is zero doubt that all magic originated with the dragons and possibly divine dragons.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I don't think it does much to help his point about Gotoh the difference between magic of Valencia and Archanea. If anything, it hurts his point because Gotoh would have been less likely to teach the Valencians how to use magic after being so disappointed in the way Archaneans had used it.

The hexes and curses don't seem to exist in previous games and their presence in Awakening looks like genericization of magic.

That's one way of looking at it, but it could also be said that these may be representative of mankind developing their own forms of magic independent of the dragons.

[RJWalker]

Thank you for clarifying that.

I don't think it does much to help his point about Gotoh the difference between magic of Valencia and Archanea. If anything, it hurts his point because Gotoh would have been less likely to teach the Valencians how to use magic after being so disappointed in the way Archaneans had used it.

But his belief in humans is restored thanks to Marth and his companions towards the end of FE1/11.

[Ϲharlie]

I don't quite buy that. Yes Gotoh did reconsider his decision to end all dealing with humanity, but would it not be unbefitting of a great sage who has seen both the best and the worst humankind has to offer to head off to another continent and teach magic? Given his experiences, I would think that Gotoh's newly restored faith would be tempered by the knowledge of how horrible humans can be. I simply cannot see him being anything but extremely cautious in his dealings with humans. Even more so when it comes to something as dangerous as magic.

If we assume Gaiden's magic system is a canon story element and not just a gameplay experiment, then the answer for its abandonment can be found within Gaiden itself. Ryuto's ending states that he journeyed to another continent to study magic. It's very possible that he (and other, unnamed mages for that matter) learned the tome-based magic while studying abroad and later disseminated it across Valencia when he returned from his travels. It seems perfectly reasonable that Gaiden's self-destructive magic would fade away in favor of the tome-based spells used by the rest of the world. It's also possible that mages from Khadein traveled to Valencia and shared their craft as well.

Gotoh is entirely unnecessary to this transition, and I don't see how having him on Valm in place of Tiki would have been any more sensible.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Starman

[RJWalker]

Valentia already had its own religion. I don't know why they're suddenly Naga cultists since they're no explanation for why the unified Duma and Mila faith from Gaiden's ending is absent.

[ClassyWolf]

This passive aggression is really not appreciated.

Yeah, sorry about that.

Tiki is the daughter of Naga and is revered as some sort of avatar of her parent. Saying you don't get how she got her role is like saying you don't get how Marth, a blood relative of Anri, is the only one who can wield the Falchion.

It's at least stated to the palyer who Anri is, what the falchion is, who can wield it etc., but nothing is really told about Tiki in Awakening, well exept that she is Nagas daughter, but not how she got to Valm or anything, and since Awakening is a sequel and Tiki is a returning character, some explanation would be nice.

Where is it stated that Gotoh is the creator of magic on Akaneia? I know he was a powerful wizard who founded Khadein, which produced many great sorcerers, but I don't remember it being stated that he was the one who actually created magic.

RJW replied to this already, but it was a poor choice for a word, maybe "introduced" or something like that would have been better?

Now that's just sexist. The reason Tiki got the role over Gotoh is because she is the daughter of Naga and is now old enough to actually handle the responsibility. Tiki likely would have featured over Gotoh even if she was a he.

The thing is that the things we know about Gotoh, that he is inteligent, he is very skilled with magic, he is the one who brought magic to mankind, he is Nagas closest servant, and he is a divine dragon, alltough he keeps that to himself, with Tiki in Awakening, I don't really see anything but the fact that she is Nagas daughter, she gives some information shen we first meet her, but thats pretty much it.

Xane stated in no uncertain terms that he hated humanity because of their wretched treatment of the manaketes. Xane only aided Marth because he thought Marth was one of the few humans who was actually decent and reliable. And once again, Tiki is the daughter of Naga while Gotoh and Xane are "just" servants. You may find them more memorable, but it's hardly unreasonable that an actual blood relative of an important figure would be held in higher esteem than a servant.

Wasn't the thing though that Marth & Co. rekindeled Gotohs and Xanes faith in humans?

And I'm thinking more from Tikis point of view, yes, the people probably trust her, but Gotoh tells us that he suspects that she hates him and Naga for how they have treated her, and yes, 2000 years is a long time, but again, some explaining would be nice.

And I still think Awakeing would have been better of cutting the refrences to earlier games and just made it's own thing.

And Tiki is acctually one of my favourite characters (or at least excluding fe:a), I just don't get her point in Awakening exept fanservice (I mean a throwback, not just sexappeal).

[arvilino]

Valentia already had its own religion. I don't know why they're suddenly Naga cultists since they're no explanation for why the unified Duma and Mila faith from Gaiden's ending is absent.

Mila was an active god worshiped for all the blessings she bestowed before the start of Gaiden, in the end both Duma and Mila were sealed together. making them with inactive gods/religion, Duma entrusts Valencia to Alm, whereas another "god" Naga had an active Oracle(Tiki) known as "the voice" who is present in Valm.

It'd make sense there'd be quite a conversion across the span of 2000 years, especially when they don't hold as much relevance at the end of Gaiden considering Duma relinquished all responsibility of Valencia to Alm(the name change of the continent actually makes a bit of sense there) placing both gods below a human.

Edited June 14, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

The ending was about physical gods ending their direct influence on the land. The Mila and Duma faiths still exist and were combined and Nomah becomes the head priest of this new faith. The ending of Gaiden was about not putting blind faith in gods. It's just sad to see Valentia going back to worshipping physical gods, especially since Naga isn't even a god and zero explanation is given.

[arvilino]

The ending was about physical gods ending their direct influence on the land. The Mila and Duma faiths still exist and were combined and Nomah becomes the head priest of this new faith. The ending of Gaiden was about not putting blind faith in gods. It's just sad to see Valentia going back to worshipping physical gods, especially since Naga isn't even a god and zero explanation is given.

Nomah became the head of a faith of sleeping gods which are less important than Alm. When the gods are placed below by Alm's 1000 year(family I'm guessing) reign when Alm's reign was over there'd be a power vacuum of sorts. In addition Naga is viewed as a god, so in terms of people worshiping her it's no different than actually being a god.

Additionally it's not surprising they'd worship a physical god when they're ok with worshiping gods rendered obsolete by their own king. Interestingly in Awakening Pheros claims she worshipped both Naga and Mila before joining Walhart's cause.

Edited June 15, 2014 by arvilino