British Mafia - Game Over! Britain Wins!

[Sunwoo]

He said he wasn't going to be here when he dropped his vote on Cam. Holiday!

Oh, that was a thing.

[Prims]

Boron, what's your read on Makaze? I'm seriously reconsidering giving him a town pass just because of how horribly I think he's treated his push on Psych today. Additionally, even though he was early on Paper, he pretty much went into lurkmode after the initial vote, so it -is- possible scum just decided to distance. Unfortunately he won't be around so I'm not sure if I'd actually vote him until D3.

[Psych]

Psych, that's a defeatist attitude, not cool =/ If you really think you're going to left alive for an easy mislynch, then you should be participating and contributing harder. Town would rather not mislynch a townie, no matter how badly they're playing, over scum.

I didn't like Makaze asking you to claim and I felt that he was role fishing, so I told him to shut up.

yeah like I said i'm reading you town but that post just rubbed me weird on a second pass

[Sunwoo]

I'll be honest, I really hate a lot of what he's done on D2 (such as continuing to drag out ITP spec at a point when it should have stopped) and his AtE on D1 also felt scummy. He had a distinct lack of "pushing" scum reads either. Most of his content is either solely defending himself or following up on distracting tangents that don't go anywhere.

Only reason I didn't think he was scum was because of his interactions with Paper after j00 reminded me that he was an early vote on him, but aside from that I still think he's scummy >_> (Going to add Paper/Makaze interactions to my to-read list)

[Baldrick]

@psych can you explain why cam is leaning itp? what do you think of darros?

[Psych]

@psych can you explain why cam is leaning itp? what do you think of darros?

he isn't helping town but i don't feel like he's scum like he's acting neutral to me

[Baldrick]

are you talking about cam? If so, why do you feel he's not mafia?

[Makaze]

Here now but going to watch Game of Thrones soon. Probably my only post tonight.

I am very irritated that FFM seems to have stopped caring entirely now that the spotlight is off him. Some of what Makaze has said today has been bugging me, which has me wondering if he and Paper just had really good distancing D1. @Makaze: Why is Psych "confirmed scum" off a silly claim (which town can do too) and not voting Paperblade? I can understand why you'd find him scummy, but "confirmed scum" is a lot of conviction when there were a bunch of other players who did not vote Paper on D1. Also, if you understand that his softclaim was pointless, why did you prod him to out further info? the way you've been pushing him doesn't add up at all.

I'm reading him less confirmed than before after more interactions. I thought it was a calculated, albeit horrible, move to soft claim. I'm not still not convinced it was for no reason but I'm open to the idea now more than before.

I voted Cam precisely because I was having doubts. Voting Cam had a couple of intents behind it: Firstly, Cam was/is acting scummy. Secondly, Psych hadn't done anything close to contributing before, probably because they didn't have any good reads. I wanted to see how they reacted with a wagon off of them. They jumped on Cam as soon as the wagon was on him instead, which made everything Psych had done look even more suspicious than before. That's why my vote is back on him.

I haven't read everything since then thoroughly but I definitely have good reason to think Psych is scum from, well, just about every post they have made. They have not a truly good town move this whole game.

he also focused really heavily on the SK/ITP line of conversation before it looked like i could be lynched today, making me feel like he's scum worried about a potential serial killer messing up his plans before deciding to go for an easy lynch

I don't understand the logic behind this at all--the motive or the read. What have I done that would even help in a situation where that was a concern?

Boron, what's your read on Makaze? I'm seriously reconsidering giving him a town pass just because of how horribly I think he's treated his push on Psych today. Additionally, even though he was early on Paper, he pretty much went into lurkmode after the initial vote, so it -is- possible scum just decided to distance. Unfortunately he won't be around so I'm not sure if I'd actually vote him until D3.

I was asleep until the hammer happened on Paper. I couldn't post because it was an early Night phase by the time I got back.

I think I've been plenty active besides though. If you're going to find lurking suspicious, there are much less active people.

[Baldrick]

@Makaze: What do you mean by early Night phase? Being inactive at certain times can be a scumtell. It might just be a coincidence, but you disappeared for the period when it's most important to push your cases. It's a sad fact of mafia that putting in less effort can often be better for your survival.

[Makaze]

@Makaze: What do you mean by early Night phase? Being inactive at certain times can be a scumtell. It might just be a coincidence, but you disappeared for the period when it's most important to push your cases. It's a sad fact of mafia that putting in less effort can often be better for your survival.

Two points there.

1. There was a hammer so the Night started before the deadline. Would have at least been able to consider posting if the Day had gone to completion. Hence the 'early Night phase'.

2. I didn't need to push my case even if I had been around to do so; it pushed itself and others took care of it. Paper didn't contribute anything to comment on past that and there wasn't anyone to argue with; I'm not sure what I could have done to push it beyond what I already did.

Thanks for asking direct questions. Going to have company in about twenty minutes.

[Sunwoo]

1. There was a hammer so the Night started before the deadline. Would have at least been able to consider posting if the Day had gone to completion. Hence the 'early Night phase'.

Hammer or not, night phase had actually started at least half an hour after the original deadline. It wasn't an early night phase at all.

[Baldrick]

1. It actually didn't. Note the timestamps.

It appears that literacy is not one of England strong points, mind you! I was writing a whole load of rabble!

It is now Day One. With 16 alive, it takes 6 to lynch and 10 to hammer You have ~72 hours to decide on a lynch.

so phase has been over for about half an hour now but epicmafia games

phase end, stop talking etc

If you had looked at the phase end and planned to post just before then you would have been in time.

2. Considering you were the major wagon, it just feels like you weren't pushing hard enough. How did you feel about FFM late day 1? You were scumreading him before, but you thought it might just be his usual behaviour. Do I have that right?

Curse my slow typing and also Boron.

[Sunwoo]

Curse my slow typing and also Boron.

I am Folgore Yellow of the Folgore Rangers! I will stomp out all the scum!

D1 ended at approximately 3:15 PM in my time zone, and I'm in one of the later ones. I also went back and double checked the number of votes that were on Paper at phase end, there was no hammer. So, uh, Makaze … why do you sound as if you're trying to make excuses for not being present at phase end?

[bladescape]

Cam's inconsistancy is nearly making me want to switch to him...

Note: I've only done a very quick skim atm, will return to do a proper read/response/whatever in ~5 or 6 hours.

Also: Darros, I like waffles. Are you going to hold that against me? (Expect a more serious response at above time)

[Sunwoo]

I just realized that I'm not going to be around at phase end because I have a meeting with my professor at that time, and I make no promises on waking up early.

Trying to get reads out of Psych is worse than pulling teeth, so I compared his play in this game to previous games where he had been town (SFMM3) and scum (Mystery). From those two games alone, his play feels closer to SFMM3 and not so much Mystery. (His response to pressure on him, for one.)

also dude eli you know i respond to pressure like a fucking diamond - it takes forever and you still don't get good results sometimes

UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE FUCKING YEAR.

I'm incredibly frustrated with Psych's play, but after reviewing his ISOs and Cam's and comparing it to previous Psych games, I'm not wholly convinced he's scum anymore. >_>

I've stated my case on and issues with Cam previously and I don't particularly feel like saying it again, but in a nutshell: only has one real scum read, doesn't seem to be reading thread or paying attention closely to it, inconsistent effort in reading players and non-Junko reads are weak.

##Unvote

##Vote: Cam

Makaze just got worse for me (to be honest the only thing that kept me from reading him as scum was his early vote on Paper, and I'll look into that more closely). I'm also getting a bad vibe from the "early hammer/night phase" thing, it sounds like he's fabricating an untrue reason on being called out for not being present during phase end.

[Makaze]

And here before going to bed.

I assumed the Day ended on a hammer before the deadline because that's how it felt when I woke up to it being Night. It's news to me that it was past time. It's 4:30 AM now; as you can tell my sense of time is a little strange. It felt that way because I expected to be able to post again after waking up but it was already Night, which made me think things were rushed.

The red flag seems to come about because I went on to explain beyond 'I was asleep'. Are you making the 'only lies have detail' argument? I don't get it either way.

[j00]

I think cam is a better lynch than me though because the things he's doing aren't helping the town whereas i've been trying and yet can't really change anyone's mind so idk

at the time you posted this, this was plain wrong since he had provided reads on people whereas you had not.

What pinged me about Psych is his vote on Cam, the earlier stuff I can buy is just typical Psych stuff and I don't mind the fact that he's not defending himselves, but he's not scumhunting either and if he was town I don't see why he'd vote Cam like that or bother voting at all. Halfway into the day phase voting "another wagon than me" isn't valid and it seemed like a desperate scum move. He didn't post reasons for why Cam was scummy and the above quote is a poor excuse.

His last post was okay, but he admits Cam's not that scummy which reinforces the impression that he voted him due to desperation.

@Prims: tl;dr Psych has gotten more scummy than Darros, and there was only Baldrick voting him besides me when I got back, it wasn't a wagon to begin with.

I don't think Makaze is scum due to interactions, but his play rubs me the wrong way, with stuff like "I was pretending to be dumb about survivor", fishing for reactions and roles, prod votes D2 and that kind of stuff. He's also taking town/scum tells too literally and he's too quick to label people confirmed scum/town and then jumps around on it. But I'm still not willing to lynch him today.

[Sunwoo]

I assumed the Day ended on a hammer before the deadline because that's how it felt when I woke up to it being Night. It's news to me that it was past time. It's 4:30 AM now; as you can tell my sense of time is a little strange. It felt that way because I expected to be able to post again after waking up but it was already Night, which made me think things were rushed.

DUMB TIME ZONE-RELATED STATEMENT AHEAD

If your current time zone is three hours ahead of mine, D1 would have ended at approximately 6:15 PM your time. I have no reason to disbelieve that you woke up past deadline. Too many of us have fucked up sleep schedules and are awake or asleep at odd hours of the day.

HOWEVER. I am not sure if I buy the assertion that you literally had no fucking idea when phase end was, considering that it was only mentioned like a million times throughout D1.

[j00]

I don't have a problem with j00's actual content, but she just seems to lack presence in this game and that makes my read on her kind of weak.

Boron 2.0 in the making; an exercise in unmemorableness

FFM disappearing is annoying but Shinori's lazy posts and borderline OMGUS irks me more, yet I still can't get more than a null read on either of them. Eury's also been away for a while and she's giving off a similar vibe like Darros, with most of her focus being on Makaze and comment on other reads regarding him.

[Sunwoo]

This game feels like it's being played amongst 4-5 people, with other people occasionally chipping in with "spectator comments" but not really getting involved. Seriously. Deadline is in a little over 12 hours, and I know for a fact I won't be there. Get your shit together, people.

[j00]

The lynch today is between Psych and Cam, can people voting neither of them switch their votes to one of them and explain why? And if someone's opposed to the idea that any of them are scum, explain that too?

I don't agree with Cam's case on Junko/Baldrick, I agree Junko didn't post many reads and had a lot of questions and comments, but the questions were reasonable and he didn't strike me as particularly bad compared to others with sparse content. Don't like Cam's general lack of scumreads either, but overall Psych is worse and I don't get that much scum intent from Cam.

[j00]

Like really, we need to get updated reads on Cam and Psych so no one worms out of having a relevant opinion on them like with Paperblade.

If you've only got time for one post comment on that.

[Baldrick]

I can't say I like Makaze's explanation. Not even knowing when phase ends is very slack.

@Boron: Mystery might not be the best game to look at because he wasn't even voted before the day he was lynched (thanks Manix). I looked at a couple of games and he seemed to be under pressure in Prince of Tennis, and he was unhelpful with reads and subbed out fairly quickly. While the result is the same, it feels a lot different, but it was two and a half years ago so his style may have changed. It probably wasn't a productive use of my time, but w/e.

Anyway, it's pointless to stay on Darros, so

##unvote
##vote: Cam

My opinion hasn't changed too much. His listpost was lazy, used a lot of words to say nothing of value and he has not responded to me. Psych at least tried, even if it was with all the urgency of a sloth working in the DMV.

[FrostyFireMage]

No quote blocks for me today. I'm just too tired for that. List with reasons under the spoiler

Also to elaborate, the Poly vote was actually based off the way I thought he'd reacted to the initial probing on his voting but I'm really regretting rushing through that because it was a really shitty read done in a few seconds without analysis at all.

[spoiler=This is a Death Note! Except the people in it aren't dead. Weird...]Town:

Sangyul/Boron - His pushes haven't always made sense to me but I've liked them, and specific interaction with Paperblade has felt unforced, and then his turnaround case on Paper.

Makaze - First off, this is in regards to scum!withpaper. I'll address ITP in a bit, but Makaze's interaction with Paper and subsequent vote/push on Paper feels not team-bound.

Townish:

Poly/Darros - His tunnelling (Too many posts to choose one and link) on Makaze feels a just completely eh, but his early interaction with Paperblade makes me think he's not mafia.

Pascal/FFM - His turnaround on Paper isn't my favourite thing at all but he feels... different to last game where he was scum. He's mostly up in the towny section from gut/feeling/possible meta.

Shinori - Oddly, I like this post despite it being a 'I would prefer someone over Paper'. The wall of text with no links annoyed me but wasn't scum or town tbh. I'd like to see a more current set of reads from him but I'm content to have him here for now.

Prims - I should have him as more town than this but I'm really, really cautious about this since he pushed his scumpartners early in the last game I played with him. He does get towny points for this being a hardpush on Day one on Paper but.. I'm paranoid. : /

Neutral:

Cam/CT - Been trying to find a solid lean on him but whenever I find one it tosses the other direction shortly afterwards. Example, I liked this post where he pulls Makaze to bits, and I liked the nexus claim. But this post in particular just doesn't sit right. I know it's pretty much him intentionally being unhelpful.

Junko/Baldrick - Disliked Junko heavily but I'm not going to pin Baldrick to the wall over what Junko did. I'll leave this one open for now.

Kay - I've literally got three posts to go on here. I don't like the last one but without elaboration it could easily be skim-reads and those can be bad. I should know.

Scumish:

j00 - I really dislike his post-Paper lynch post, Also his switch was hella late. Other than that he hasn't really stood out to me.

Psych - Meh 1, Bleh 2, Eeeeh 3 The thrilling trilogy

Eury - The list of Meh-ness part one, and the second iteration in the duology. Mostly what I dislike about this is the stance on paper. Giving enough reason to reasonably put themselves on the wagon while making it sound so Eh that if another wagon popped up a switch wouldn't be that out of the question. Other than that his lists and inquisitions haven't struck me one way or the other, although the tunnelling on Makaze seems legit.

Scum:

So I have no hard scumreads atm.

ITP spec:

I reckon it's Poly/Darros or Makaze. Makaze hasn't done great and has felt defensive even through the Paper lynch, and why Poly? Look at his case on Makaze being ITP. Most specifically this post. Feels almost like ITP escaping by painting someone else as their role.

So atm I want one of Psych/Joo/Eury, but I'm going to reread the posts that happened after I fell asleep last night because I haven't reallly checked them yet, expect another post shortly.

Only odd thing I can see is the opinion on Eury, but otherwise pretty AOK.

… You do realize that Psych is FAR from being newb!town, right? He's been playing longer than I have.

Oh.

i'm just going to listwall this because i'm far too backed up at this point to scumhunt normally

Warning: if you want to quote small portions of this post you'd have better luck copying the relevant portion manually (as in from the big page) and then enclosing taht in quote tags

[spoiler=Bladescape]Ha! Fuck reading new material at 3 AM and nothing he did in D1 is worth talking about

[spoiler=Boron]"I'm more bothered that Darros... empty unvote" - as stated, too easy and ignores other things going on simultaneously (i have this in my quicktopic as sheeping something but I guess it wasn't ~O_o~)

"It looked like he had backed off Cam because of his claim", "Yeah, I don't quite understand..." - fine

"I feel that he tried too hard to justify his unvote. - Other things had definitely happened at that time, not entirely convinced that darros' empty unvote was the scummiest thing worth pursuing

"I really don't like this response", "WHY do you pressure..." - pushing makaze for doing something weird is fine but why "not convinced you're new scum" vs "town doing scummy things"? No explanation is given from what I can see.

"Personally, I dislike "reaction tests" as an excuse" - fine

"I think Darros is scum" - At this point there were definitely things that had gone on other than things based around Darros' unvote. Even if I buy the whole "well he could be newbtown" (without reasons given as to why it's more likely to be newbtown vs scum), how is it that there was nothing gleaned from other happenings? Offhand, there was me vs Junko and prims "being prims", as well as BBM kind of being in the background without getting involved.

"Give me your reads on everyone else in the game" - don't really have a problem with this other than my usual issues with blanket requests

"my point is that FFM is basically voting me over something that... most people are doing" - FFM's vote was admittedly shitty as fuck but this is a surprisingly passive-aggressive/defensive response to such a benign post by bladescape. This is also followed up by an OMGUS (I am probably being colored by confirmation bias wrt this point in particular); all I can see of the case there is "FFM voted me for doing things that other people are doing" which is kind of shitty (not that FFM was squeaky-clean at that point regardless, but I'll get to him).

"This is not odd, FFM." - See above wrt bladescape, this looks super snappy, in a sort of "how dare you think I'm not town!" way; note that part of the defense includes "why would I fake numbers"... which is something that FFM never actually accused her of?

"I don't understand why Cam's vote on Junko was hypocritical" - response to FFM is fine, I really don't get why darros refusing to vote made him scum

[-i had a lot written down about the posts in between here but then i realized a lot of them were "ok yeah this is alright"-]

"FFM came back and at least responded to the cases on him" - It is admittedly a day later, but Boron's tone towards FFM made a huge 180 from apparently being hugely annoyed with him to what seems almost encouraging? Next, the line about FFM immediately following the Paper vote completely rubs me the wrong way. "FFM came back and responded but he's not off the hook" gives license to have any possible read on FFM in the future (it opens up both "yeah his responses were fine so i think he's town" and "he's not talking about current events he's scum"). It almost feels like a little unnecessary thing thrown in to justify moving her vote off FFM, even though the Paperblade case was fairly solid (moreso than the FFM one IMO). It's worth noting that this is the third vote on the Paper wagon (third and fourth votes are, in my experience, the places where scum hide because it's just early enough where it doesn't look like sheeping).

"I literally want to punch you" - punching me is a scumtell

On a slightly more serious note, calling me a hypocrite is a shitty defense for this reason

boron's role in the whole "what am ITP" debacle is actually far less interesting than I thought it was so i'll skim that

"If you think I'm the only one..." is a shitty defense because other people doing it doesn't make it not bad. never mind that i was apparently wrong

"i'm not interested in pursuing junko" why?

psych stuff - pointless post; rolespec without a conclusion drawn is just distracting

CONCLUSION - my memory apparently sucks when it comes to ~context~ but there are a lot of little insidious things that are on my mind. A number of them are probably just confirmation bias being dumb so I'm leaning more null on Boron. Interactions with Paper are mostly not there (and before someone inevitablly tells me to go read (placing the word "fucking" in the middle is optional), i'd far rather you show me) and I can definitely see scum!Paper saying "yeah I won't be around you guys should lynch me and get free towncred".

[spoiler=Cam]obvtown (nobias)

[spoiler=Darrps]HOENN INTENSIFIES - hoenn was a shitty-ass region dirty scum 2surf4me

darros is actually really okay, other than spending multiple posts arguing (pointlessly) about ITP etc (i explained why itpspec is shitty af)

CONCLLUSION - darros am i scum?

[spoiler=FFM]first off, if FFM ragesubs i am going to policy lynch him in every future game i play with him for the rest of forever

wall #1 consists of mostly okay pokes and comments (if a bit sheepy and uninspired) other than his insistence that junko is n00bt0wn... except he ends by voting Boron? wat

wall #2 reads to me like he's trying to find excuses to find other people scummy; half of everything other than the things that pertains to me are qualified with "well this is bad but it MIGHT NOT BE". In particular, the line "As it has already been said, Darros' vote/unvote in RVS was pretty sus... Darros would know this." is about as waffle as you can get in one line, then there's

without any further explanation; makes no sense and then tells me that i'm "reading too much into things"... wat

AtE is pointless and a waste of time and I would lynch regardless of alignment if this kept up because it's a liability to have a defeatist attitude around during XYLO

wall #3 is painful to read and doesn't actually have anything useful in it

baa and then bullshits some reasoning, i would have far less problem with it if he'd just voted for consolidation etc and left it at that

"Cam focusing on Junko to the exclusion of everything else is strange" - have you pushed anyone other than me? you backed off of walrein after maybe two lines worth of talking about him because he subbed (aka not a reason) and you dropped boron out of nowhere

[spoiler=j00]j00's stuff is pretty good and is far more coherent than I am when it comes to saying things so i won't go in-depth

rest of playerlist when i wake up because it's past 4 AM

Don't like how Cam spent most of his effort painting Boron black, especially since she's seeming remarkably town at this point in time.

Cam is still my largest scumread right now.

[CT075]

i don't think psych is scum

why are people creating a 1v1 when there isn't one anyway