Israel/Gaza (Round 3)

[Wander]

I'm seriously bothered by this, too. If we truly are ramping up for some serious global world war conditions and we're on Israels side, we may be on the wrong side of history.

What do you mean by this?

[jiodi]

What do you mean by this?

Well currently Israel is being viewed more and more as a country of apartheid and ethnic cleansing. I reserve judgment cause people always talk in the extremes, but the death toll keeps rising and the west is getting angrier and angrier about it. Would the US be willing to put a stop to Israel if they truly come out to be murdering Palestinians and doing the stuff people are speculating about?

Or would WW3 happen where we're the bad guys D:

[Life]

Would the US be willing to put a stop to Israel if they truly come out to be murdering Palestinians and doing the stuff people are speculating about

Need to call bullshit at this point. It's not just you but everyone.

Look. Say what you want about the government but you cannot equate it to army actions.

There is not a single shred of evidence proving a "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians. Furthermore, I brought up ISIS before to bring out this response. A lot of you (including Nightmare who I respect entirely) proved just know how the country itself has an impossible double standard set on itself.

Let's list the points.

1. No proof of a genocide during a time of war. Look at the statistics of people killed during this operation. The vast majority of dead Palestinians are male and between the ages of 18 and 38. In addition, this includes about 200 confirmed terrorists. That's two possible (probably less) civilians to one terrorist. Take away that 200 and you still have over 80% of the casualties being over the age of 18.

Like I said, no genocide and definitely no ethnic cleansing.

2. The number of dead in Gaza is at ~600. Syria has 200,000 dead over two and a half years, with both sides just firing to fire. And yet when Assad calls Israel butchers, the world believes him over us.

3. There is more of an ethnic cleansing in Europe against Jews right now than anything that has or may happen in Gaza. France, Germany ("gas the Jews" made a comeback this week), Belgium and fucking Austria where crazy Arabs stormed the field of a soccer match of Maccabi Haifa and started attacking the team during the game. People want both Jews and Israelis dead and not just in Israel.

4. And this bothers me because a lot of people ignore this important point. Gaza is not an occupied area and has not been since 2005. The "occupation" argument makes sense if fighting was in the West Bank which is still held by the Israelis. But Gaza has its own government (which is Hamas) and nothing Israeli inside it. The only reason why they would lob rockets at Israel is to attack Israel, not to fight for their own land... because they already have it. Relief aid goes in through Israel (including hydro/electric of Israel) with Egypt not doing shit because they don't like Gaza too. And yet Israel is accused of occupying Gaza.

These double standards are both absurd and wrong when you look at the facts. There are no rallies for Darfur or Nigeria. Nothing for Syria and Iraq. But Gaza... gimme a break. The hypocrisy here is so bad that it hurts to look at.

[Rehab]

We have been hearing and seeing very different things if you sincerely have the impression that anybody believes anything Assad says. I feel pretty comfortable calling the man a warlord in every sense. I've also heard at least some arms have gotten from the U.S. (not sure about other western countries) to anti-Assad rebels, though I assume too little too late to help most Syrians much is an understatement. (Then again, I haven't heard much from what I could call the international community on Syria/Assad in a while. But I heard he's even widely unpopular in what was referred to as the Arab world.)

And I personally haven't heard anybody say they like ISIS or anything, and their incursion into western Iraq was relatively hot news where I am just a couple weeks ago (before the kidnapped Israeli boys who got found dead were, and then, yeah). Nobody in the neighborhood (especially not Iran, of course), not the U.S., not Europe (though I've heard less about any reaction from there). Supposedly, even friggin Al-Qaeda cut ties with them, because they were "too brutal" and being associated with them was getting to be bad for their reputation or something. (Holy shit, right?) I have heard that one problem with them and the Iraqi government, though, is that Maliki himself was so bad he got a nickname something like the second/Shia Saddam, due to his heavyhanded treatment of dissent and opportunistic consolidation of power. (I assume Maliki is "Thanks, Obama"in for the advisors as we speak.)

Again, I have indeed heard that anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, and in more violent forms than is usual, and it's nothing to sneeze at, but there's also been an influx of Muslim immigrants, some of whom I remember being turned back by a boatful recently (in Italy, I think?), and I think I heard they're not generally getting a friendly welcome themselves- xenophobia of more than one kind is a problem on the rise there.

France was another place that I heard had a lot of them. More a feeling than something I've actually seen analyzed, but one sizable mistreated minority already being pissed at another sizable mistreated minority.. doesn't sound like a good recipe.

And "occupation of the strip" may have been used/perceived poorly, I forget the latest news I heard on it tbh, but there's no getting around that residential buildings in Gaza have been bombed, and Israel really has blockaded it for a while- port shut down and shit.

drinking game: count how many times I used the phrase "I heard" in this post

Edited July 26, 2014 by Rehab

[Nightmare]

These double standards are both absurd and wrong when you look at the facts. There are no rallies for Darfur or Nigeria. Nothing for Syria and Iraq. But Gaza... gimme a break. The hypocrisy here is so bad that it hurts to look at.

Never said anything about other places, though. It's just that much more prominent in Israel, however, but I disapprove of things in all the ones you've named, and even more that I can't be arsed to name right now. Hell, I'm very displeased with how my own country is run, even, but I'm not going to go into particulars.

[Magical CC]

Well currently Israel is being viewed more and more as a country of apartheid and ethnic cleansing. I reserve judgment cause people always talk in the extremes, but the death toll keeps rising and the west is getting angrier and angrier about it. Would the US be willing to put a stop to Israel if they truly come out to be murdering Palestinians and doing the stuff people are speculating about?

Or would WW3 happen where we're the bad guys D:

The US has already been the bad guy. You just didnt care. Of all countries in the world, it's the US that has no right to open it's mouth talking about "war crime" or "civilian casualty".

Edited July 25, 2014 by Char

[Rehab]

Yes, if you'd like to get into that, not a few of us here in the U.S. would easily agree we have a two-faced history on how humanitarian we/our government say we are (or aspire to be) and how we've acted, and think both the people and government of the country really ought to have more of a reckoning with the regime overthrows/propping-ups and nation-stompings that the U.S. has both financed/supplied and directly performed, as they were so often unjust, inhumane, selfish, and simultaneously both paranoid and ignorant (and not least because they've helped cause many of the problems currently on the world's plate). We're far from always the ones at our country's bully pulpit, and we ourselves have some reckoning to do with the others we share it with, but we're at least around.

We're also experienced in making mistakes, and just as there's no point trying to hold others on our level to standards we can't meet ourselves, there'd be no point trying to hold ourselves to higher standards while watching peers make the same mistakes we did.

Unless we wanted them to happen. Which we don't, because they were/are awful.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Rehab

[Siuloir]

When you pen people up in a glorified prison complex, let their infrastructure degrade and be swamped by sewage and other waste and then bulldoze their homes, can you really be surprised when they take aggressive action toward you?

The equivalency here, however, is that both sides are exceptionally good at causing the death of innocents.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Siuloir

[Chiki]

The equivalency here, however, is that both sides are exceptionally good at causing the death of innocents.

Yes, the only difference is that Israel killed 649 civilians, while Hamas killed 2.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Chiki

[Magical CC]

Yes, the only difference is that Israel killed 649 civilians, while Hamas killed 2.

Simply because of the Iron Dome.

[Chiki]

Simply because of the Iron Dome.

So what? It still means Hamas isn't as good as killing innocents.

Anyway, Hamas is running out of rockets whereas Israel is a major Western ally. Israel will practically never run out of rockets. There's absolutely no comparison.

[Magical CC]

So what? It still means Hamas isn't as good as killing innocents.

Anyway, Hamas is running out of rockets whereas Israel is a major Western ally. Israel will practically never run out of rockets. There's absolutely no comparison.

Nope. It means that both sides are as destructive as the other.

Btw, Hamas running out of rockets is nut. Totally nut. They got rockets and various stuff for free from a certain country. Give Hamas some months to recover and they will have more rockets than even now.

[Siuloir]

So what? It still means Hamas isn't as good as killing innocents.

Anyway, Hamas is running out of rockets whereas Israel is a major Western ally. Israel will practically never run out of rockets. There's absolutely no comparison.

Are you suggesting that it would be difficult for individuals in the Middle East to acquire rockets for the express purpose of shooting them at Israel?

I am fairly certain you get a 15% discount in say, Egypt, if you mention you're buying with the express purpose of shooting them at Israeli targets.

[jiodi]

Are you suggesting that it would be difficult for individuals in the Middle East to acquire rockets for the express purpose of shooting them at Israel?

I am fairly certain you get a 15% discount in say, Egypt, if you mention you're buying with the express purpose of shooting them at Israeli targets.

And you'd be wrong, because Egypt sides with Israel and hates Hama :P

Cici is secular military dictator, always gonna be at odds with those of religious ideology.

[Chiki]

Nope. It means that both sides are as destructive as the other.

Btw, Hamas running out of rockets is nut. Totally nut. They got rockets and various stuff for free from a certain country. Give Hamas some months to recover and they will have more rockets than even now.

If it takes Hamas some months to recover, it means they aren't as destructive as Israel, since they can't cause destruction during those months.

[Life]

So what? It still means Hamas isn't as good as killing innocents.

Anyway, Hamas is running out of rockets whereas Israel is a major Western ally. Israel will practically never run out of rockets. There's absolutely no comparison.

I'm quite bitter right now because I'm going to a friend's funeral in a couple of hours. Not just someone that's a friend of a friend but someone I knew well.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Just because Hamas hasn't killed more than ten civilians doesn't mean they're not trying to. In the meantime, we're not aiming for civilians but they'rr being forcibly put in our way. Or do the stories of soldiers in hospitals about being attacked by gunmen with babies in their arms not compufe?

As of 6 hours ago, my opinion has changed. Hamas is more than a political party or terrorist cell. They are living proof of an idea. The only way to wipe them out is to raze Gaza. And fuck it, I'm OK with that. Because the entire fucking population is worth less than the life of Amit Yeori and that's final.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Life

[dondon151]

What the fuck is wrong with you? Just because Hamas hasn't killed more than ten civilians doesn't mean they're not trying to.

and yet it's extremely clear by this point that the burden of damage caused by the two parties is disproportionate. it's as clear as day. there is something sadistic about knowing that your opponent is outgunned and continuing to find an excuse to do so, especially if you also possess the knowledge that this is exactly what the opponent wants. so what the fuck is wrong with you?

I'm quite bitter right now because I'm going to a friend's funeral in a couple of hours. Not just someone that's a friend of a friend but someone I knew well.

look, i don't mean to demean your friend or obfuscate the magnitude of this tragedy, but there is at least someone out there who has been to several funerals in the span of a couple of hours.

The only way to wipe them out is to raze Gaza. And fuck it, I'm OK with that. Because the entire fucking population is worth less than the life of Amit Yeori and that's final.

lol, i think everyone should take this quote and put it in their signatures. i agree, palestinians are worth less than livestock.

Edited July 27, 2014 by dondon151

[Siuloir]

And you'd be wrong, because Egypt sides with Israel and hates Hama :P

Cici is secular military dictator, always gonna be at odds with those of religious ideology.

Never did I say they were buying them from the government, did they?

I'm quite bitter right now because I'm going to a friend's funeral in a couple of hours. Not just someone that's a friend of a friend but someone I knew well.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Just because Hamas hasn't killed more than ten civilians doesn't mean they're not trying to. In the meantime, we're not aiming for civilians but they'rr being forcibly put in our way. Or do the stories of soldiers in hospitals about being attacked by gunmen with babies in their arms not compufe?

As of 6 hours ago, my opinion has changed. Hamas is more than a political party or terrorist cell. They are living proof of an idea. The only way to wipe them out is to raze Gaza. And fuck it, I'm OK with that. Because the entire fucking population is worth less than the life of Amit Yeori and that's final.

If you're willing to accept what you just said makes you a sociopath who just called for a population genocide...

Edited July 27, 2014 by Siuloir

[Magical CC]

The Palestine lacks a proper government to protect themselves. Both Fatah and Hamas are too weak or too stupid. Neither of them hold any real power. The closest the Palestine has ever get was when Arafat was still alive. Now? It's just a mess. You can never fight against anyone with just rock and rocket. You have to gain the support from the world, not by making them feel sorry for you but because you show them why they should support you. That is why I said Hamas is dong it wrong. If the Palestine doesnt want to be butchered like livestock, they have to change. If they cant change, their are doomed.

Btw, all of you who dont have any knowledge about the conflict between Israel and Palestine should not post. If all you see is the current casualty of Palestine, then dont even bother.

If it takes Hamas some months to recover, it means they aren't as destructive as Israel, since they can't cause destruction during those months.

You dont even think, right? With the new attack of Israel on Palestine land, most if not all of Hamas's equipments were destroyed. It takes time to import weapons from Russia to Middle-East, you can just import it directly. It's amazing that they can recover within months, just like before.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Char

[Phoenix Wright]

Btw, all of you who dont have any knowledge about the conflict between Israel and Palestine should not post. If all you see is the current casualty of Palestine, then dont even bother.

You dont even think, right? With the new attack of Israel on Palestine land, most if not all of Hamas's equipments were destroyed. It takes time to import weapons from Russia to Middle-East, you can just import it directly. It's amazing that they can recover within months, just like before.

haha, you should follow your own advice. palestine is outgunned, outnumbered, and outmatched. how could israel and palestine possibly be equals in their destruction? you aren't making sense and haven't been from the get-go.

I'm quite bitter right now because I'm going to a friend's funeral in a couple of hours. Not just someone that's a friend of a friend but someone I knew well.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Just because Hamas hasn't killed more than ten civilians doesn't mean they're not trying to. In the meantime, we're not aiming for civilians but they'rr being forcibly put in our way. Or do the stories of soldiers in hospitals about being attacked by gunmen with babies in their arms not compufe?

As of 6 hours ago, my opinion has changed. Hamas is more than a political party or terrorist cell. They are living proof of an idea. The only way to wipe them out is to raze Gaza. And fuck it, I'm OK with that. Because the entire fucking population is worth less than the life of Amit Yeori and that's final.

i'm sorry for your loss. it's extremely rough, i know. stay strong for yourself and your friend.

-----------------

it goes without saying, but i don't think he meant what he said in the last bit.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[jiodi]

Never did I say they were buying them from the government, did they?

Nah I was just being a dick :P

[eclipse]

Two things:

1. No, you don't get to say who should and shouldn't post in this topic. It's a public forum, so as long as it's relevant to the topic and doesn't go against the Code of Conduct/Serious Discussion sticky, it's fair game.

2. Personal attacks are not welcome.

Back to the topic.

[Chiki]

Just because Hamas hasn't killed more than ten civilians doesn't mean they're not trying to. In the meantime, we're not aiming for civilians but they'rr being forcibly put in our way.

Classic Israeli defense, which is nothing more than a convenient excuse to kill more innocent people needlessly. Hamas didn't put the four boys that Israeli forces killed on a beach nor did it make Israel target a UN shelter nor did Hamas make an innocent Palestinian citizen look for his family members so he could get sniped by Israelis (video may be NSFW so putting in spoiler tags):

Let's just admit it here: Israel doesn't care if innocent Arabs die, period.

Or do the stories of soldiers in hospitals about being attacked by gunmen with babies in their arms not compute?

Proof for this claim?

The only way to wipe them out is to raze Gaza. And fuck it, I'm OK with that. Because the entire fucking population is worth less than the life of Amit Yeori and that's final.

Holy crap. You realize that this kind of genocidal thinking is the same that Hitler had in his mind when he killed your ancestors, right? It's really ironic since your country was founded thanks to the same genocidal tendencies that you exhibit now.

You dont even think, right? With the new attack of Israel on Palestine land, most if not all of Hamas's equipments were destroyed. It takes time to import weapons from Russia to Middle-East, you can just import it directly. It's amazing that they can recover within months, just like before.

Isn't that nice? You just gave me an argument for why Israel has more destructive capability than Hamas. Thank you.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Chiki

[dondon151]

Btw, all of you who dont have any knowledge about the conflict between Israel and Palestine should not post. If all you see is the current casualty of Palestine, then dont even bother.

this is a really good excuse to shut down discussion about any topic: make a dubious claim that you know more about the topic than everyone else, and then assert that everyone else's opinions are null for that reason. it dashes all pretense of intellectual honesty.

remind me to take you less seriously in the future, thanks.

Edited July 27, 2014 by dondon151

[Toogee]

I try and avoid these political discussions. Emotions run way too high. I actually know a thing or two about this conflict, so I'll throw in my two cents.

I see the word genocide being thrown around, especially in regards to Israel's treatment of the Palestinian territories. If Israel wanted to kill all the Palestinians, don't you think they would have done it by now? If genocide was the goal, why bother with targeted attacks? Why bother with the pamphlet drops telling citizens to evacuate? The word is being used incorrectly all over the internet, so I just wanted to get that out.

I will say that Israel did perform ethnic cleansing when they forcibly removed Jewish residents from the Gaza Strip a decade or so ago. This was in the hopes to make peace. Clearly that didn't work out.

If there is to be peace, the Palestinians need vote in a government that's not hostile to Jews the world over. Maybe Israel wouldn't feel the need to block them off then.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Toogee