Opinions on the Lucina/Avatar Confrontation in Chapter 21?

[Kreekakon]

Hello everyone! There's already been a bit of talk bout this in the "Canon Pairings" thread, as well as a bit of other small tidbits across the forum as well which I've noticed. So I figured that I would make a more concentrated thread on the matter for more people to share their thoughts in.

This thread is basically for everyone to share their thoughts on what they think of the Avatar, and Lucina confrontation during which Lucina considers killing the Avatar to save Chrom.

Since it would require an immense amount of work to thoroughly explain the entirety of the scene, and its variations to anyone not familiar with it, I'll just assume that everyone hopefully already knows what I'm talking about.

There has been a very mixed reaction to this scene, so I'm looking forward to what you all think. Personally here are my own feelings on it (With some copy pasted from my earlier posts):

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I personally really like the scene, because it adds a certain amount of human to Lucina's character. From a ruthless calculus (©Garrus, Mass Effect) standpoint it is incredibly selfish, and stupid for not willing to do something which may save millions of lives just by taking down one person. However the reason I like my characters is if it is understandable that they cannot make such a decision for very personal reasons, and irrationalities that they cannot overcome.

Also another thing worth mentioning about this scene I felt is something I mentioned in the other thread. There is a very glaring point of hypocrisy in that scene from Lucina. However it one that I like for being there rather than disliking:

Lucina believes that she can change the future by coming back, and working hard with the shepherds. HOWEVER she still believes in fate somewhat enough that she is deadset on thinking that the Avatar will wind up killing Chrom someday. That's a serious half measure. If she truly was coming back to break down fate entirely, it would've made more sense just to go "Screw whatever happened before, this is our new world! The avatar is not killing Chrom at all in this world! I believe in all!"

This is a very fundamental flaw in Lucina's beliefs, but one that I can roll with, because she cannot help herself but make compromises for her own feelings.

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SO that was a very short version of my own thoughts about it. What are yours? Let's hear them below!

[Czar_Yoshi]

I think it has nice music and wasted potential. That is all.

[BrightBow]

The scene is fake drama at it's finest. There is no dilemma because there is no reason that Robin needs to be anywhere close to Chrom. It's bad enough that IS thinks that their audience can't come up with the obvious solution by themselves but Robin mentioned that Chrom should leave him behind in the scene right before this one. This is when the disrespect of the game towards it's audience stopped to merely annoy me and just made me feel insulted.

But let's pretend for a moment that there actually was a dilemma. Lucina's focus on Chrom and only Chrom is nevertheless disheartening. Those who carry the title of Lord should acknowledge their responsibility and give a damn about all of their subjects instead of just the few people in their little private circle. There is a lot more at stake here then merely Chrom's life.

Edited August 4, 2014 by BrightBow

[Refa]

She should've gone all Spock on Avatar's ass. Dramatic retelling below.

Lucina: So daddy is going to get stabbed in the back by his BEST FRIEND FOREVER and you're like his BEST FRIEND FOREVER right.

Robin: What about it?

Lucina: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Robin: But what about our bo-

*STABBED IN THE FACE*

GAME OVER

Thus making it impossible to beat the game without killing off Lucina (because she'd try to stab you BUT FAIL because non combatant for life)!

[lazydoggamer]

I honestly don't see why everyone likes this scene so much. I felt no tension whatsoever since I knew that regardless of what I picked the writers wouldn't have the avatar be killed off.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Hmm, it wouldn't necessarily result in a game over if they fought. Two possible outcomes I can think of (that seem more likely for bad fanfiction, but w/e): Avatar loses and dies, but then goes "Lol death I'm an Earth Dragon" and comes right back whenever it would be most convenient (possibly even by stealing Grima's sacrifice), the other being that Avatar wins. If he does so by killing Lucina, then another story arc could unfold in the aftermath of that.

All that is random speculation, though. It would at least be nice if your answer to her question meant something.

[Kreekakon]

I felt no tension whatsoever since I knew that regardless of what I picked the writers wouldn't have the avatar be killed off.

That is extremely common in almost 90% (Number pulled out of ass) of media, and stories I would say. The key is if the audience is invested enough in the scene that during the scene their minds go on autopilot mode through it without thinking so much.

[BrightBow]

I was merely torn between wanting to object to Lucina in the hopes that the absurdity of this scene would be pointed out and my other hope, that she might actually take me out of my misery if I don't. And to think that this is only the beginning of the stupidity of this arc.

Edited August 4, 2014 by BrightBow

[euklyd]

I am ambivalent about the entire thing.
I feel like on the one hand it's ~humanizing~ but on the other hand it's also done in a pretty OOC way, in that Lucina has demonstrated that she is extremely driven+responsible about what she considers ~essentially her entire raison d'être~, and that her progression to "Oh I can't do it" feels rather forced; OOC at best...

[spoiler=Boron has a pretty good analysis on this]

The reason the chapter 21 scene made me dislike Lucina's character is actually the same problem I had with Chrom. FE as a series has a history of lords and royals who have to make difficult decisions and sacrifices for the good of their people and the world. In a way, Lucina's scene in chapter 21 gives me a twofold problem:
1) Not killing the avatar: Lucina truly believes that killing the avatar will save the future, and this is her whole purpose for traveling back in time - to stop the future that she came from. That she cannot make the sacrifice when the avatar is her own beloved mother or husband makes her seem selfish and a bit weak. That her resolve was never that strong and she's just going to (in her mind) doom the future because of her weakness.
2) Killing the avatar: an avatar who is not her mother or husband she would've killed (or attempted to) without a second thought because she believes it would save the future. The fact that she may be killing anyone else's loved one (even if the avatar is her uncle through Lissa, her cousin's wife, or her brother- or sister-in-law)doesn't matter to her. Only when it is her own precious mother or husband does it suddenly matter to her. In a way, it's selfish, the avatar's life only matters when it's her own loved one but nary a consideration for anyone else's.
I don't mind the special conversation, the deeper struggle when it is her mother or husband. I just wish she came to the same conclusion in all three versions: either murder is wrong, or that the avatar must die to secure the future. Making an exception for her loved one makes her look weak in my eyes, especially when FE has a history of lords making difficult decisions for the good of the people.

[bookofholsety]

if the circumstances leading up to it hadn't been such a crude mess of poor writing, the scene COULD have worked okay. alas, we're stuck with fe13 as we know it and the scene falls flat as hell. the most puzzling part is the "accept lucina's judgement" choice, considering said choice makes absolutely no difference at all. why did they even bother?

as it stands, the most entertainment i've ever gotten out of it involved reclassing lucina to cleric to see her point falchion at the avatar even though she isn't actually able to anymore. clearly i am a simple man who is easily amused

[Kreekakon]

the most puzzling part is the "accept lucina's judgement" choice, considering said choice makes absolutely no difference at all. why did they even bother?

Well this doesn't excuse anything regarding lack of choice, but....I just beat Ocarina of Time 3D for the very first time (First time I played OOT), and when you put that together with Awakening's "choices"...let's just say I've moved past expecting my choices to matter at all somewhat, and just accept the game for what it is and that they won't matter when they're not intended to matter.

*Grumbles and mutters*

Edited August 4, 2014 by Kreekakon

[BrightBow]

Well this doesn't excuse anything regarding lack of choice, but....I just beat Ocarina of Time 3D for the very first time (First time I played OOT), and when you put that together with Awakening's "choices"...let's just say I've moved past expecting my choices to matter at all somewhat, and just accept the game for what it is and that they won't matter when they're not intended to matter.

At least in OoT it allows you to mess with people by giving the "wrong" response. Princess Zelda's unique poses, sounds and facial expressions alone make it worth it. Though, it's not quite as funny if you refuse to enter the Deku Tree and have to go through another overdramatic cutscene before you get asked again.

Edited August 4, 2014 by BrightBow

[Czar_Yoshi]

as it stands, the most entertainment i've ever gotten out of it involved reclassing lucina to cleric to see her point falchion at the avatar even though she isn't actually able to anymore. clearly i am a simple man who is easily amused

I prefer taking an untrained -Mag Avatar with an unforged Wind into Cht.23 alongside a LB-capped Dread Fighter Chrom with Res+10, positioning the two as far away from each other as possible, killing Validar with Mire and then watching as Avatar somehow still trashes Chrom (and the Validar).

And speaking of strange Sword holds, Aversa uses the female Mercenary pose while holding a sword in one of the Plegia cutscenes.

[Ownagepuffs]

The scene is great when Avatar is her mother and meh otherwise. Still it's Awakening being Awakening. The third arc was such a clusterfuck.

[Faye]

I'll admit I was tense the first time I played this game. 8U I accepted Lucina's judgement because it is the right thing to do, and I was hoping My Unit would at least get cut or something before Chrom comes in.

I think I said it before, but I actually sympathize and understand Chrom's selfishness in keeping My Unit alive. Even as a lord with responsibilities, some people aren't strong enough to face reality. I know I'd do the same thing if I were in Chrom's shoes, which I think is interesting about Chrom. Makes him very relatable to me. Willingly allowing a dear friend of yours (romantic or platonic) to die to save the world isn't an easy decision to make; those who are strong will eventually suck it up and know what to do next. Chrom isn't as strong, which is why I like him.

This makes no sense because it's 5AM here and I've been up all night. But this is how I feel about Chrom, and by extension, Lucina, and their unwillingness to kill those they love the most.

[shadowofchaos]

The scene is great when Avatar is her mother and meh otherwise. Still it's Awakening being Awakening. The third arc was such a clusterfuck.

I'm a crybaby and pretty "simple" probably compared to most people here.

The music and "love for your mother" got me, even if in hindsight after multiple playthroughs, it doesn't really mean *THAT* much at all due to the horrendous mess of the story.

As for the MaMU x Lucina...

Enjoy. Skip to 2:20 if you just want to see said "opinion".

[Shin]

I agree with Boron's logic. Lucina's resolve to prevent what is essentially an apocalypse from happening can't be particularly strong if she's willing to kill somebody else's family but not her own.

[Dandragon]

This is pretty much another reason as to why the Avatar, among other aspects, pretty much ruined the story. Does anyone else get the feeling that this game was rushed?

[shadowofchaos]

This is pretty much another reason as to why the Avatar, among other aspects, pretty much ruined the story. Does anyone else get the feeling that this game was rushed?

It's tailored to people who like feeling "important" if they had the capability to self-insert.

I know I loved it the first playthrough.

[Roflolxp54]

As much as I like the cutscene, it is essentially ruined with the fact that the choice for Lucina's judgment only changes the dialogue and that the entire cutscene, including the choice, can be skipped entirely with a single press of the Start button, though that can be a blessing in itself.

[BrightBow]

It's tailored to people who like feeling "important" if they had the capability to self-insert.

I know I loved it the first playthrough.

If you self-insert, wouldn't you pay even more attention because you are more immersed? The lack of logic becomes even more problematic that way. At least my experience at the end of the demo went something like this:

"Alright, the battle is over. Now let's ask that Marth guy what the hell is going on here."

Marth: I'm not here to talk about me. This world teeters at the brink of a horrible calamity. What you saw tonight was but a prelude. You have been warned....

"Yeah, that won't do. Seriously, how is that warning going to help us? If you wanna help, maybe you could be specific? Also, wasn't this your portal? What's the deal with that?

...guys? Why are we just letting that guy walk away... like slowly walk away? I mean, come on, you arrested me for sleeping on the field and you let the guy with the knowledge about the undead invasion leave?"

Frederick: It appears his skills lie elsewhere. I wager we'll hear his name again...

"We hear from him again? That wasn't some Disney Afternoon villain, were the heroes become self-aware of the nature of their show and their weekly confrontations. We are facing the apocalypse here."

Frederick: But for now I'm more concerned about the capital. We should make haste.

"The... capital? Personally I am more worried about the undefended village we just came from. Also, are you sure you don't want to go after that guy? It will be easier to decide what we should do once we know what we are actually dealing with. You can still catch him, I mean, he is on foot and you have a horse and all. ...are you listening, Frederick? Hello?"

Edited August 4, 2014 by BrightBow

[Queen Sars]

Personal opinion, I liked the scene in my first playthrough. My Avatar was Lucina's mother so it had the personal punch in it. I never accepted her judgment though, because I didn't think killing the Avatar would be the fix-all the future was looking for, but dang it would've been cool if she was able to kill her. Would've made for an interesting twist and I would've loved to see what the story would've done after that.

The second playthrough I had a male Avatar who wasn't married at the time, so the only tie he really had was Chrom's friendship if anything. I think her not being able to go through with it is actually still in character. After all she came back in time and almost every time she tries to intervene she came off as desperate and I don't blame her either. Like for example when she tries to stop Basilio from going, he still goes regardless. She put up a little fight but then backed off, it's the same with this scene too. You could agree with her but she'll start her own internal battle of "is this the right thing to do?" before coming up with her own final decision.

So yeah, I liked it. Sure the choices don't matter, which stunk but I still liked it regardless for both scenarios I tried. Heck, even when Chrom intervenes it seemed in character for him too since him and the Avatar were bros for life from the word go.

[shadowofchaos]

If you self-insert, wouldn't you pay even more attention because you are more immersed?

I know you pay attention to details a lot more than the typical person.

I sure as hell didn't pay attention all THAT much my first playthrough.

As long as the surface was "good enough".

Why do you think the game is so popular for the typical person?

Or the popularity of Chrom x FeMU?

It's not details or immersion... it's wish fulfillment.

Like someone said in another thread, Awakening tells its audience what to feel.

For people like me the first time through, it worked.

Edited August 4, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Airship Canon]

Special version: Pretty great.

Normal version: Terrible.

I've never gotten why Lucina actually listens to Chrom in the normal one.

Since her arrival [ignoring hindsight, since there's things she did not know at the time]:

...She failed to prevent Emmeryn's death.

...She failed to prevent Basilio's death. (She calls herself out on this too)

...By all logic, not going the extra step is going to treat her with failure again.

Why would she think third time is gonna be different? She doesn't have that want/need to believe Chrom here like she does in the special versions.

Honestly I'd be expecting her to kill MU in their sleep in the non-special ones. (Of course, that's a quick trip to ensuring her bad future, since things, but that's hindsight is 20:20)

Special version, it makes sense. She loves MU either as mother or husband. She wants to believe it. She can't kill MU here since she's ...get this, not this unbreakable [lolno, she IS broken] supersoldier that some people make her out to be.

She's got a lot of weight on her shoulders with the special one... normal one, not so much. Chrom's stance just reaffirms her in the special.

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you self-insert, wouldn't you pay even more attention because you are more immersed?

Actually I'd fill every plothole I notice with headcanon, and even ignore some legitimate bits to insert more. So no, I'd do the opposite.