Awakening Skills tier list

[Zkirsche]

@Kuroi: I suppose I didn't remember staff sages, but the rest of the skills I still think are worse than rightful king, which helps Chrom with his Aether proc.

Why the hell would I want to have someone who has chances to die to crits trying to Nostank?

Clearly you've never tried it. Thanks to Hex Tharja will consistently hit 1 range folks and still does a good job at hitting the others. I want to get numbers, but at worst you start her off with a forge until her skl stat kicks in.

While we're at it, whatever is Rightful King doing below crap like Wrath and Zeal???

I think you have a bad habit or arguing for the sake of arguing as that is basically my point.

Edit: GK is inferior to paladin in every sense aside from WTC which is minimal and you're not likely to train all three weapons types to high rank anyway. Guarding also isn't as important as striking.

Edited August 13, 2014 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

Clearly you've never tried it. Thanks to Hex Tharja will consistently hit 1 range folks and still does a good job at hitting the others. I want to get numbers, but at worst you start her off with a forge until her skl stat kicks in.

I think you have a bad habit or arguing for the sake of arguing as that is basically my point.

I dunno about you, but when a potential result of a maneuver includes death (and with it, a restart), I blacklist it as unviable right then and there, end of discussion.

Maybe, but on the other hand, at least we agree on something, is how I look at it.

[Interceptor]

WRT Charm, I just remembered that Lucina comes with it, too. So post-13, and even if you aren't using her as a main unit (she makes an excellent Support partner), the effective Charm reach for your army can be pretty substantial.

About Tharja, someone really needs to drop some stats on this one. There are ways to deal with a LCK deficit that results in listed crit from enemies... one of them is called "Libra", and he shows up in the same chapter as she does.

[Elieson]

For what it's worth Gaius pairup gives an immediate +9 Hit to Tharja at base (and they're two units that you'd probably want to pair up because the speed boost is appreciated as well. Libra gives +3 Luk at base which translates to +1 Hit and +3 CEV. It's not what I'd call worth writing home for.

Hex+Gaius Pairup results in a +24 Hit bonus to adjacent enemies, and 8 AS is respectable in that she isn't getting doubled in return. Plunking her in a fray with Nosferatu equipped early on means that she's very likely hitting targets with a respectable 110 Hit after bonuses.

I don't have chapter 9 enemy stats, but Chapter 10 [Lunatic] has the dodgiest enemy with 35 Avo (a Steel Axe Wyvern Rider with Tantivy), so 75% hit with Nosferatu in the chapter after she joins is good.

You can easily feed her a Skill tonic for +3 Hit, and a Luck tonic for another +1 hit. Nosferatu!Tharja has adjacent-enemy combat at worst, 79% with 500G investment at base level with one of the least accurate weapons in the game, on Lunatic.

This isn't counting stuff like Charm.

*edit

Gaius Pairup + Speed Tonic means she has 10AS at base, which means she is not getting doubled by anything on the map

Edited August 13, 2014 by Sara.

[Interceptor]

For what it's worth Gaius pairup gives an immediate +9 Hit to Tharja at base (and they're two units that you'd probably want to pair up because the speed boost is appreciated as well. Libra gives +3 Luk at base which translates to +1 Hit and +3 CEV. It's not what I'd call worth writing home for.

I don't think you're solving the correct problem, here. It's NBD if Tharja misses someone occasionally, however it's probably a reset if she gets critted in the face.

Libra gives a double handful of stats because of his bases, and it will only get better as they build supports. Ultimately you want to make sure that Tharja gets the +10 crit avoid from the Support system, which ought to solve her issues on that front until she grows out of it herself.

[Shadow Mir]

For what it's worth Gaius pairup gives an immediate +9 Hit to Tharja at base (and they're two units that you'd probably want to pair up because the speed boost is appreciated as well. Libra gives +3 Luk at base which translates to +1 Hit and +3 CEV. It's not what I'd call worth writing home for.

Hex+Gaius Pairup results in a +24 Hit bonus to adjacent enemies, and 8 AS is respectable in that she isn't getting doubled in return. Plunking her in a fray with Nosferatu equipped early on means that she's very likely hitting targets with a respectable 110 Hit after bonuses.

I don't have chapter 9 enemy stats, but Chapter 10 [Lunatic] has the dodgiest enemy with 35 Avo (a Steel Axe Wyvern Rider with Tantivy), so 75% hit with Nosferatu in the chapter after she joins is good.

You can easily feed her a Skill tonic for +3 Hit, and a Luck tonic for another +1 hit. Nosferatu!Tharja has adjacent-enemy combat at worst, 79% with 500G investment at base level with one of the least accurate weapons in the game, on Lunatic.

This isn't counting stuff like Charm.

*edit

Gaius Pairup + Speed Tonic means she has 10AS at base, which means she is not getting doubled by anything on the map

Well, actually that made me realize something - no class boosts both Skill and Luck other than the lowly Villager. That said, I still think her luck deficit is the more urgent problem. The skill problem doesn't help her case, however.

[Elieson]

Oh, you're right. I forgot about the +10 hit that comes from being paired up with anyone (+10 CEV needs 3 points, so an B, for instance...you know the combinations for +3 Supp. points). Also I forgot about Anathema for another +10 hit for 3x3. She's not missing with Nosferatu any time soon, as long as she has a pairup with skill.

Still, with base 3 Luck and enemies toppling a ferocious 7-8 crit due to base 15 sk being the top of the line in Ch10, I don't understand where the huge problem is. Luck tonics early on in her career until she hits B with somebody should suffice (or in Ch10, having C+standing next to someone) will give her CEV at an absolute minimum of 13. 40% Luck growth is respectable, and it's ridiculously easy to pump up her CEV.

**Edit to my above post. I meant to say HAS WELL OVER 10 AS**

Edited August 13, 2014 by Sara.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

@Kuroi: I suppose I didn't remember staff sages, but the rest of the skills I still think are worse than rightful king, which helps Chrom with his Aether proc.

Yeah. I was trying to think of ways they might be defended, but I pretty much just ended up with reasons why they're niche or undesirable. For completion, maybe I'll list things out so they can be gauged against other skills.

Wrath - +20 is far too low, especially for something that requires losing so much HP. It essentially requires stacking a killer weapon, with it, in addition to at least one other crit skill. Gamble or Anathema are preferred, as Zeal is just really disappointing. I once built a male Avatar around a crit build and while it was fun, there is a reason I started calling him Casinovatar. In short, it's even more rigid to set up than a good Rightful King build. Personally, I think that fact that Vengeance exists renders this skill totally obselete.

Pavise - Actually not a terrible skill on its own, given that the majority of enemies faced will wield swords, lances and axes. Unfortunately, actually getting this skill involves spending 15 levels in General, which is just ugh.

Rally Res - Would be a somewhat similar boat to Rally Mag, but only Maribelle can readily go for it. Lissa can eventually get there, but it requires two seals minimum. The benefits are a bit more tangible than Rally Mag, but it's just not very available. Rightful King is at least a bit more versatile than that.

Dual Guard+ - There is some merit to the skill. I mean, it's an extra 10% to evade an attack, no ands, ifs or buts. The class stats are a bit iffy, but it also brings Luna and full weapon triangle advantage to the table. Thing is, it's hard to justify a 15 level detour to a mediocre class when Hero is right there with its level 5 Sol and much better stat distribution (for Morgan and Lucina, anyway). I suppose there's some argument for Chrom, who doesn't have th luxury of Hero, but I think he'd still prefer Paladin. Now that I've written things down, it's a bit of a tougher call than I thought. Both require jumping through hoops to really set up, but Rightful King should be available earlier and provide direct benefits to Aether, building in stepping stones as more proc skills arrive, whereas Dual Guard+ only pays off right after it's earned. Still... I actually think I have to side with Dual Guard+ here.

[Interceptor]

Still, with base 3 Luck and enemies toppling a ferocious 7-8 crit due to base 15 sk being the top of the line in Ch10, I don't understand where the huge problem is. Luck tonics early on in her career until she hits B with somebody should suffice (or in Ch10, having C+standing next to someone) will give her CEV at an absolute minimum of 13. 40% Luck growth is respectable, and it's ridiculously easy to pump up her CEV.

Well, don't underestimate the fact that you will still face some Barbarians. They can spawn with Gamble, and then the 7-8% crit turns into 17-18% crit. Your established characters can mostly handle that, but Tharja emphatically cannot. And even with small percentages, the CoD over one map is going to increase every time you face one. i.e. if she faces five enemies with a 3% chance to die on hit, that's basically a ~14% chance to die over that span just from a critical hit.

It's a problem that you sort of need to solve for her, in order to keep from getting punched in the gut. I say Libra and a tonic as a default, but there are other alternatives.

Dual Guard+ - There is some merit to the skill. I mean, it's an extra 10% to evade an attack, no ands, ifs or buts. The class stats are a bit iffy, but it also brings Luna and full weapon triangle advantage to the table. Thing is, it's hard to justify a 15 level detour to a mediocre class when Hero is right there with its level 5 Sol and much better stat distribution (for Morgan and Lucina, anyway). I suppose there's some argument for Chrom, who doesn't have th luxury of Hero, but I think he'd still prefer Paladin. Now that I've written things down, it's a bit of a tougher call than I thought. Both require jumping through hoops to really set up, but Rightful King should be available earlier and provide direct benefits to Aether, building in stepping stones as more proc skills arrive, whereas Dual Guard+ only pays off right after it's earned. Still... I actually think I have to side with Dual Guard+ here.

I love DG+, but only for Lunatic+. Without the carrot of defending yourself from the otherwise-unblockable Hawkeye/Luna+ combo, it loses a lot of its shine in vanilla. By the time it finally lands, who is really going to benefit from it? Mediocre characters that can't establish either their dodge or concrete-based durability in time?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I love DG+, but only for Lunatic+. Without the carrot of defending yourself from the otherwise-unblockable Hawkeye/Luna+ combo, it loses a lot of its shine in vanilla. By the time it finally lands, who is really going to benefit from it? Mediocre characters that can't establish either their dodge or concrete-based durability in time?

Well, toward the end of the game, the enemies do start bringing decent base hit with Hit+10 as a free skill and the GKs will start toting Luna. Berserkers also bring a decent amount of power. If we're going with a 5 combat pair environment, this is something that could probably be an issue for those in positions 3 through 5 (aside from them not really even having a choice whether they want Rightful King or not). I guess the thing is, I'm not comparing it against anything high tier. It's just up against Rightful King and they're both pretty much third string abilities. Rightful King really needs to be supporting a bunch of proc skills to really be useful, which isn't going to be a speedy process, either. In a fight of marginal benefits, I think Dual Guard+ has a bit more going for it.

[Elieson]

Chapter 9, 10 and 13 are the main chapters with Barbarians in them (for fear of Gamble). 9 and 10 are the ones with the significant concern, but a healthy support pool can be established by then to kick back crit rates. 10 is probably the worst of them all, but there are so many reinforcement spawns of Wyvern Riders that Tharja can gain healthy amounts of exp from then in the right-most 2 funnels on the map after your other units have taken care of the few Barbs that exist on the map. Just because Tharja faces crit from some enemies doesn't mean that she has to face all enemies by herself. It's not god-tier or anything, but she's still an extremely servicable unit, and her easy-access skills, particularily Anathema and Vengeance, do nothing but help her cause.

Where I'm underestimating the amount of Gamble!Barbarians and the effect of gamble against her, I think you're overestimating the amount that Tharja actually will engage in combat with.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Sara.

[Interceptor]

Well, toward the end of the game, the enemies do start bringing decent base hit with Hit+10 as a free skill and the GKs will start toting Luna. Berserkers also bring a decent amount of power. If we're going with a 5 combat pair environment, this is something that could probably be an issue for those in positions 3 through 5 (aside from them not really even having a choice whether they want Rightful King or not). I guess the thing is, I'm not comparing it against anything high tier. It's just up against Rightful King and they're both pretty much third string abilities. Rightful King really needs to be supporting a bunch of proc skills to really be useful, which isn't going to be a speedy process, either. In a fight of marginal benefits, I think Dual Guard+ has a bit more going for it.

That's fair; compared to RFK, DG+ definitely looks better even in vanilla.

Chapter 9, 10 and 13 are the main chapters with Barbarians in them (for fear of Gamble). 9 and 10 are the ones with the significant concern, but a healthy support pool can be established by then to kick back crit rates. 10 is probably the worst of them all, but there are so many reinforcement spawns of Wyvern Riders that Tharja can gain healthy amounts of exp from then in the right-most 2 funnels on the map after your other units have taken care of the few Barbs that exist on the map. Just because Tharja faces crit from some enemies doesn't mean that she has to face all enemies by herself. It's not god-tier or anything, but she's still an extremely servicable unit, and her easy-access skills, particularily Anathema and Vengeance, do nothing but help her cause.

Where I'm underestimating the amount of Gamble!Barbarians and the effect of gamble against her, I think you're overestimating the amount that Tharja actually will engage in combat with.

Sure, you can cover Tharja in bubble-wrap, or give her favored access to easy kills that could otherwise go to someone else. Either way, you have to come up with something to compensate for her innate crit avoid weakness, and putting on the kid gloves sometimes has downsides elsewhere.

[Czar_Yoshi]

RK: I don't like it. If bad distribution can be a case against any other skills, RK is at the bottom of the barrel. Chrom can use it, if he chooses GL over Cav, and it'll boost his Aether from ~10-15% to 20-25%. Chrom!Inigo or Chrom!Brady can have it, but Inigo has this thing called bad bases and a hard recruitment paralogue, and will wind up using it for things like Sol and AT (and he's probably it's best user), while Brady wants to be magical and won't have any procs for it. Kjelle and Cynthia, Chrom's better daughters, don't get it at all. Lucina? She could get it... But due to automatic Aether inheritance it means she'll have to both go through 15 levels of GL (+10 of Lord) exclusively for it, which is a bad deal in my book when she could be doing something useful like Cav or Pegasus.

Tharja: A better way to solve her crit issues, imo, would be Solidarity. A free +10 Dge (what the game calls critical avoid) is pretty major. Whether Avatar is actually paired up with her or just standing next to her likely doesn't matter because enemies will prefer the frail unit most of the time.

Rally Mov: My problem with it is that anyone who has it is, by default, one of my main combat units. Rally Spectrum doesn't suffer from this as much because lategame I often use my Avatar to tank hits unequipped and give them to other units, and he/she isn't in a hurry to kill as much stuff as possible.

Dark Fliers: Enemy Res is usually low enough that mine don't have too much trouble using Tomes to attack (earlygame, at least). What I mostly tend to do is put my pegs through DF first, get GF to pass down, then reclass them to Falco for Staffbot duty (and to get more Rallies) and it works pretty well. And speaking of using Staffbots to compensate for no/little Galeforce, also consider that a) without a lot of training, Rescue's range will be pretty low (fixed by 15 levels of DF, it'll be high enough to be useable) and b) combining Rescue and GF is better than either alone.

[Waifu Severa]

Oh man, Tharja. In my second playthrough, she obliterated everything in her path and had the power to solo every single chapter, but of course, i didnt want to do that. All i did on her was Nosferatank with Sorceror and it worked like a charm. As for her "Crit" issue, she critted like 3 times in a row with only like 9-12% crit chance.

Aether for Tier 1

Edited August 14, 2014 by Waifu Severa

[Shadow Mir]

RK: I don't like it. If bad distribution can be a case against any other skills, RK is at the bottom of the barrel. Chrom can use it, if he chooses GL over Cav, and it'll boost his Aether from ~10-15% to 20-25%. Chrom!Inigo or Chrom!Brady can have it, but Inigo has this thing called bad bases and a hard recruitment paralogue, and will wind up using it for things like Sol and AT (and he's probably it's best user), while Brady wants to be magical and won't have any procs for it. Kjelle and Cynthia, Chrom's better daughters, don't get it at all. Lucina? She could get it... But due to automatic Aether inheritance it means she'll have to both go through 15 levels of GL (+10 of Lord) exclusively for it, which is a bad deal in my book when she could be doing something useful like Cav or Pegasus.

Tharja: A better way to solve her crit issues, imo, would be Solidarity. A free +10 Dge (what the game calls critical avoid) is pretty major. Whether Avatar is actually paired up with her or just standing next to her likely doesn't matter because enemies will prefer the frail unit most of the time.

RK: IMO, bad distribution is not enough for it to be a tier below the likes of Wrath and Zeal...

Tharja: As in character as that'd be for her, I personally think tethering the avatar to her is just out-and-out inefficient.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Czar_Yoshi]

Oh man, Tharja. In my second playthrough, she obliterated everything in her path and had the power to solo every single chapter, but of course, i didnt want to do that. All i did on her was Nosferatank with Sorceror and it worked like a charm. As for her "Crit" issue, she critted like 3 times in a row with only like 9-12% crit chance.

It's an issue of her getting critted, not her getting crits.

[Elieson]

Solidarity is a viable option, as in Ch9 and Ch10, you're not like, sending off people on solo missions or /required/ to grind avatar at this point. (s)He should be overleveled at this point

Regardless, between a Luck Tonic (150G), one PairUp (like Libra, as Interceptor said) and 1-2 chapters of support, Tharja's facing less than one hand's worth of crit from NonGamble enemies. You're not seeing Gamble that often once Valm starts because lolbandits lolplegia (aside from a couple of Paralogues, notably Laurent's), but still, the point is to have a unit who faces low crit chances. This tier list criteria rates skills based on how they contribute to not a Non-RESET run, but minimizing Reset run.

[Shadow Mir]

Solidarity is a viable option, as in Ch9 and Ch10, you're not like, sending off people on solo missions or /required/ to grind avatar at this point. (s)He should be overleveled at this point

Regardless, between a Luck Tonic (150G), one PairUp (like Libra, as Interceptor said) and 1-2 chapters of support, Tharja's facing less than one hand's worth of crit from NonGamble enemies. You're not seeing Gamble that often once Valm starts because lolbandits lolplegia (aside from a couple of Paralogues, notably Laurent's), but still, the point is to have a unit who faces low crit chances. This tier list criteria rates skills based on how they contribute to not a Non-RESET run, but minimizing Reset run.

News Flash: Gamble Barbarians aren't the only enemies she fears. There's also Mages (Thunder magic and potential Focus), Dark Mages (when your crit evade is as shit as Tharja's, Anathema makes you into a walking critblick just waiting to happen, to say nothing of them potentially using thunder magic) and their respective promotions.

At any rate, Solidarity is an option, I just think it's not a very good one, given that it's avatar exclusive, and gluing him/her to Tharja has the potential to result in downsides elsewhere, as well as loss of efficiency.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Czar_Yoshi]

Notable Valm's Dark Knights (there are a lot of them in Cht.19) can wind up with either Anathema or Focus. But anyway, let's take a look at exactly what kind of crit rates we're talking about here.

Tharja's base Lck is... 3. Failure. On the bright side, that means Anathema only provides a +3 boost...

With a base Libra pairup, that's 6, and 8 with a Tonic. It'll take 18+ Skl to have listed crit on her, or a +crit weapon. Enemies in Cht.9 who can do that:

Campari (21 Skl, 2 Crit)

3 Mages who could have Focus (12 Skl, 8 Crit) (one is a reinforcement)

2 Archers with Killer Bows (18/20 Skl, 30/31 Crit, may have Skl+2)

2 Archers who could have Skl+2 (20 Skl, 1 Crit)

1 Dark Mage who could have Anathema (9 Skl, 4 Crit)

OK, so the most dangerous things there are obviously the Killer Bow Archers. Those should be removed before Tharja is recruited and are a threat to everybody. 1 Crit isn't too bothersome, especially for a skill with a random chance of appearing. Campari doesn't move and if Tharja is going to take him down, it's easy to flank her by allies for a +10 Dge support bonus. That leaves just the Mages, but she's too frail... A Res tonic with max HP can take a Nos crit and live, a Res tonic and a Rally Res can take the Arcwind at full HP and live, but even both of those combined are still OHKOed by Arcfire.

Basically, there are three significant threats to her in Cht.9.

Now, if Tharja and Libra get an event tile support (or use a Seed of Trust), I'm pretty sure they'll be able to advance to C following the map (dunno for sure though, I don't have Tharja's support growths in front of me). That gives 1 more Lck from Libra, and with one adjacent unit she can get +10 Dge. Cht.10 has lots of Barbs, but they have pretty bad Skl (4 base Crit) so even with Gamble a C supported Tharja x Libra with a tonic will be at 3 Crit. That's 3 higher than preferable, but Cht.11 is a little better (she can stick with the Fighters on the left, who can only have Zeal (8/13 base) and once she has a B support she'll be mostly fine. She'll need to steer clear of the Mages in Cht.11 though, who can have up to 27 Crit.

[Tables]

Alright so moves I think I see being suggested:

Galeforce down to tier 2. Possibly some other reshuffling of tier 2 (I see the arguments for Dual Strike+ over Galeforce, I feel... fairly convinced by them at this point. I think Galeforce is more useful once you have it, but DS+ is available for much longer and guaranteed to be in play).

Healtouch down possibly. I find Healtouch a useful skill, especially before you can afford constant Mend staves or just want +5 HP even with Mend, but I can see why it's often not THAT useful. It has slightly limited availability but on the other hand, Lissa is almost certain to be used early on and Libra's likely to get some use in the midgame, so it's likely to get some play at least. For a quick stat sanity check, let's take base Libra... he has 16 MAG and C staves, so heals (IIRC) 17 HP with Heal and 25 HP with Mend by default, but that raises to 22 HP with Heal and 30 HP with Mend thanks to Healtouch. It also affects Physic and a few others, of course. Those HP heals are well below character's likely max HP at this point, so that extra HP can well help sometimes. Hmm... overall it doesn't seem like it's a high tier skill, it's occasionally useful and saves you money on Mends, but most of the time you're healing it's probably not so much that you NEED the higher HP. Down for now I suppose.

Charm I'm convinced should go up. Tantivy I still think the argument isn't TOO strong for, but I could see it going up one tier at least. I am aware Wyverns are the most likely to go off alone, but it's still probably not going to be for too long or anything I find.

Hex up slightly for now. I find it's mostly only useful early on, though, before Tharja's hit rate gets consistent from everything else like pair up bonuses, skill growth etc. It does have the advantage of working from the back and affecting all adjacent enemies, but it's pretty uncommon I feel for that 'aura' effect to really do much (you rarely end up next to more than one enemy and it's not often worth sacrificing player phase positioning for a 15% hit boost, when hit rates are usually pretty consistent).

Wrath down seems reasonable. Heck down to bottom seems arguable. It's not really a particularly strong skill at the best of time, it's availability is low, and it doesn't seem to contribute much towards safely completing the game.

Rally RES going down I can see happening. It's a nice rally but Valkrie isn't the easiest or best class to get into. Maribelle seems like the only likely candidate, and perhaps others would like to argue against this, but I find that of the four main early to mid healers (Lissa, Maribelle, Anna, Libra) she's the least useful. If she had Canto maybe not but... well, yeah. That means having a Valkrie in your team is even less likely.

A few other things I want to talk about:

I see Tharja being discussed a fair bit, especially her dodge. I usually give her a Goddess Icon, or even two You get one from Renown (actually I should talk about that...) and one from Side Story 2, and you get another in chapter 11. On top of that they aren't exactly competed for, so I feel like it's among the best possible use for them. That gives her a quick jumpstart onto her dodge. Also, until you can actually buy Nosferatu you probably don't want to Nosferatank much with her - meaning she's likely to mostly face combat like a mage. With other units nearby. Who raise her dodge by 10. She is slightly limited early on as a result, yes, but it only takes 4 chapters to get to B support (and since she only needs one battle in chapter 9, that means chapter 9, Side Story 4, Chapter 10 and chapter 11 will do it). After that point, yes, SOME things can still have crit rates on her but mostly, she's good. I have rarely had any problems with her dodge, basically.

Dual Guard+. This is basically like another avoid skill, except... not really as good as you might think. Now, it looks like a really good skill, because you can see a significant increase in how often you Dual Guard... but it's effectively not much of a difference compared to avoiding (remember, if you would both DG and avoid an attack, you only see the DG). I seem to remember from doing some calculations that, while it does vary depending on your DG rate, mostly avoid+10 (or a similar effect) would have a bigger effect when the enemy hit rate is lower than about 70% - and that's pretty often. Still, avoid boosts are good, right? Well... DG+ is a level 15 promoted skill. Meaning it's not available until later in the game. Now it might well be decent in that late game, but still, it's not the best thing.

Rightful King has a major issue, like DG+, of being a level 15 promoted skill. Worse, it's availability is far more limited. Lucina starts with Aether and almost certainly wants to reclass. If she does go Great Lord and promote, she's worse off for skills and stats, so it's a really bad option in comparison. Inigo is one of the worst kids, and even then what's he running RfK on? Armsthrift? Maybe Sol? I suppose if you really wanted Olivia could have gotten and passed down Astra, but then uh how late into the game are you recruiting Inigo? Brady can boost... Miracle. And then reclass to be able to get Luna eventually? Pretty mediocre. That just leaves Chrom. Now Chrom might well get RfK, at which point it's basically a much worse copy of Aether. If he gets it then he can also reclass to GK, and also pick up Luna. This gives him a pretty nice skill activation rate, actually. Depending on his pair up he probably has ~38 Skill at 20/20/5 Lord/GL/GK which gives a 29% Aether and 34.08% Luna rate (total 63.08% proc rate). Not fantastic, but it's okay. But there's other options you could have taken - reclassed to Cavalier immediately at 20 Lord, giving better stats. Or at 20/5 GL, giving Aether and better stats. I don't have time to do exact stats on these or estimate levels sensibly, but I feel like basically the option is worse. It's a skill which is only moderately worthwhile and has a big opportunity cost, in other words.

Rally Move and Dark Fliers. Sumia's magic is not really that bad. She has about 7 STR more than MAG, and physical weapons are stronger than magic ones, but magic is generally comparable at 1-2 range, if not better, plus enemy DEF is often a fair bit higher than RES. In my recent playthrough, Sumia was using tomes quite a bit as a Dark Flier - and killing stuff. As for Rally Move, it's useful in hit and run type situations - kill an enemy, Galeforce back and use Rally Move. It can be pretty handy and it's easy to do. Actually, on the subject of Galeforce, people have pointed out that other things can substitute for it - but most of them are bad substitutes. For example, Kill something and rescue back is nice, but Rescue staves are expensive, you can't afford to use them regularly until the late game.

That's all I have to say right now, although I would say more if I had more time.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Healtouch is one of those skills that would be really great in the earliest chapters, but it's just not there. Even with a lot of incoming damage, doing all the Paralogues as they come up and making her the sole healer (in addition to tricks like healing 1 HP when there's nothing to do), I don't think it would be reasonable to expect Lissa to hit level 10 before chapter 7. While being topped off is still nice, the big early window where that would be really important, namely chapter 4 and earlier, is kind of long gone. By the end of chapter 11, durability is probably high enough that a few missing HP is very much not a big deal. I'd probably move it down below Aegis. Tome wielding enemies become legitimately threatening again for the last half dozen chapters if you're not pushing your Res cap (so basically anyone other than Avatar and possibly her kids). Cavalier/Paladin is a readily available and often desired class line that characters will want to go into early. I'd say Aegis makes situations way less scary and risky than Healtouch and is helpful for a much broader period of time.

I'd also drop Special Dance down, probably below Patience. This is a pretty late game skill that requires consistently deploying Dancer Olivia, who is squishy and has movement that lags behind all the promoted units. Even when I deployed her a lot and cheesed things a bit by having her dance on idle turns, near the end of chapter 18 is when she finally picked the skill up. And no, I don't think she deserves combat EXP. She's really weak, meaning poor returns as a fighter and with 5 combat pairs, the combat EXP is already being spread a bit thin. All this for a fairly nominal 1-turn stat boost. Actually, looking at the list more, I think it's in part that Patience needs to go up, but I'll get to that later. Upon reconsideration, I think it belongs below Even Rhythm. Even Rhythm comes free on Panne and immediately starts benefiting her, since she likes to build into an avoid tank. While the condition is a bit lackluster for the boost that it does give, it still helps her for a large chunk of the game. This is way more use than Special Dance could even hope for.

As for Patience, I think it should be above Armsthrift. Patience's trigger is enemy phase, which is going to be the greater majority of combat and as a reliable, static boost, it's pretty good. It comes free on Gregor, who, even if he's relegated to just support duty (maybe even because of it, since his stats will fall behind in that case), it'll continue benefit him for most of the game. On top of that, Mercenary, despite being swordlocked is still a pretty okay class statwise and promotes into the much-desired Hero class. That's my argument for it being above everything that's under Armsthrift, anyway. The reason I think it's slightly better than Armsthrift is because of reliability. Patience has enemy phase activation going for it and is available during a time where 10 hit and avoid are a pretty big deal. Armsthrift may be available earlier, but it really needs levels behind it to make a serious difference. Thing is, by the time a character's pushing 25+ Luk, they're probably thrashing the enemy with run-of-the-mill Steel or Iron gear. Plus the game throws loads and loads of money at the player, so any money saved is comparatively negligible. And while it's nice to have for legendary weapons or Silver/Brave forges, by that point in the main campaign, the game is practically over.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Hmm. I usually use my Goddess Icons for early AT boosts, but they could also patch up Tharja.

Mercenary's big selling point isn't it's stats, it's its pairup boosts. +Spd/Def (both of your survival stats) on an unpromoted class is incredible and only shared by Cavalier.

[Tables]

Most of what you said sounds agreeable but this bit I think is incorrect:

Healtouch is one of those skills that would be really great in the earliest chapters, but it's just not there. Even with a lot of incoming damage, doing all the Paralogues as they come up and making her the sole healer (in addition to tricks like healing 1 HP when there's nothing to do), I don't think it would be reasonable to expect Lissa to hit level 10 before chapter 7.

By my calculations, it only takes a little over 50 heals for Lissa to reach level 10. You're very likely breaking the first heal staff (30 uses) in chapter 3. Chapter 4 is short, then Side Story 1 is relatively long compared to everything so far as not much auto-aggros, so you'll probably heal a lot there. By chapter 5, you're probably getting close to level 10. Add in we're probably Rescue staffing Maribelle and Ricken, as it's the easiest and safest way to save them (assuming we care about saving them, of course, but ehh) which is about 38 EXP more, and yeah, chapter 5 for Healtouch on Lissa sounds about right to me.

Also something else I wanted to bring up that I forgot to mention before regarding assumptions: I never mentioned bonus box or renown awards. My intention was renown up to the large bullion (which I think is fairly standard on most playthroughs, from what I can see) and no other spotpass features at all (i.e. no bonus box). Do people think those are reasonable?

[Elieson]

in Lunatic, you're rescue staffing Maribelle or Ricken (one should pair up with the other).

[Interceptor]

Charm I'm convinced should go up. Tantivy I still think the argument isn't TOO strong for, but I could see it going up one tier at least. I am aware Wyverns are the most likely to go off alone, but it's still probably not going to be for too long or anything I find.

Tantivy benefits from the skills that you're likely to find it alongside: Quick Burn, Avoid +10, or (in Panne's case) Even Rhythm. That's a serious amount of Avoid if you have a couple of those, and lets a flier operate independently for a while. Avoid-based defense in Lunatic is really good, because Hawkeye doesn't exist in vanilla.

I send fliers off alone all the time; they are the best suited for it, especially if they have a solid Support partner that they can switch to in order to deal with effective weaknesses or low HP.

Rally RES going down I can see happening. It's a nice rally but Valkrie isn't the easiest or best class to get into. Maribelle seems like the only likely candidate, and perhaps others would like to argue against this, but I find that of the four main early to mid healers (Lissa, Maribelle, Anna, Libra) she's the least useful. If she had Canto maybe not but... well, yeah. That means having a Valkrie in your team is even less likely.

Maribelle is really good, I don't know why people are always shitting on her. Sure, Lissa is a better healer and has a level lead + inertia in her favor, but Maribelle brings Demoiselle without a reclass, which turns your men into Men™. She's a really excellent unit for backline support if you are using guys like Gregor, Lon'qu, etc. Lissa probably edges her overall (due to easier access to good offense), but when it comes to defensive prowess, accept no substitute.

Actually, on the subject of Galeforce, people have pointed out that other things can substitute for it - but most of them are bad substitutes. For example, Kill something and rescue back is nice, but Rescue staves are expensive, you can't afford to use them regularly until the late game.

Money is not really a limiter in this game outside of the very early stages, especially if you are including Renown bullion. In my Lunatic+ run, I was grinding up Levin Swords into powder and snorting them like cocaine. By the time that Rescue staves are buyable (right after the start of Valm), you should be fine using them occasionally for bail-outs. It helps that they are good for leveling up staff-users, too.

The problem I have with putting Galeforce on a pedestal is that it has negatives associated with it (Falcos are just a better class than Dark Flier), and a lack of positives for it to leverage in this environment (not LTC, no mass Counter to worry about). When I can get Rally SPD and Lancefaire with flying staff access while retaining ~75% of Galeforce's effectiveness by using Rescue/Dance, I think I'm taking the hit and choosing Falco most of the time. It's not like DF is going to give you Nosferatu access, or anything.

By my calculations, it only takes a little over 50 heals for Lissa to reach level 10. You're very likely breaking the first heal staff (30 uses) in chapter 3. Chapter 4 is short, then Side Story 1 is relatively long compared to everything so far as not much auto-aggros, so you'll probably heal a lot there. By chapter 5, you're probably getting close to level 10. Add in we're probably Rescue staffing Maribelle and Ricken, as it's the easiest and safest way to save them (assuming we care about saving them, of course, but ehh) which is about 38 EXP more, and yeah, chapter 5 for Healtouch on Lissa sounds about right to me.

It's something like ~54 uses, but that's a shitload of healing. If you are breaking your Heal staff by Ch.3, that means you patched up every last scraped knee available along the way. That's more like the kind of style that I was using in my "58 Turns to beat a Chapter" L+ run. Is the hypothetical player making meatwalls and paper-cutting enemies to death, here?

Also something else I wanted to bring up that I forgot to mention before regarding assumptions: I never mentioned bonus box or renown awards. My intention was renown up to the large bullion (which I think is fairly standard on most playthroughs, from what I can see) and no other spotpass features at all (i.e. no bonus box). Do people think those are reasonable?

I think that Renown makes things more interesting. Bullion (L) is kind of an arbitrary cutoff, though. I'd lean towards starting the counter at Energy Drop, i.e. one complete playthrough. That gives you the Seal, a Seed, and a good Merc weapon to work with, at least. The extra money in Ch. 4 is really helpful, though not as much as it would be if you were allowing Spotpass store items.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Interceptor