Zkirsche Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Refa WoMC was cleared by Jalmont. It makes zero sense for us to be scum as we're the only alignment cops in the game and there's a flipped godfather. We could be cult but of all things why would CL be given the ability to empower others and get alignment cops and there have been so many better cult targets than us (jalmont, Refa). I stick by to what I said yesterday when I said Beli/Jalmont are the most likely scumbased on role, which is anooying as Jalmont is fairly townie otherwise. I just don't buy backup driver bearclaw. I suppose there could be another half to his role but I'm more confident placing my vote here: ##vote: jalmont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Oh right bear was hooked so he can't be mafia. That makes me doubly sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Uh, ##Unvote because I'm not even super confident in the Jalmont vote tbh. I'm kind of wondering if the mafia is even still around. They've been pretty stacked rolewise from flips so far and I'm kind of wondering if this is a weird Cultafia variant where they start killing after the mafia dies off? It'd make sense considering if Via hadn't been hooked for a while, we could've taken out the mafia really quickly and the rest of the game would take forever to die off without a nightkill. I'm not too sure about it but I'm going to reread shit and see where my thoughts are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 The stuff I did with the dayvig Day 2 and the Godfather with no flipped cop are also pretty good reasons I'm not scum, so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're not mafia. FFM had an alignment cop (well, full cop) as one of his abilities, but it wouldn't make sense to have a Godfather just to screw him over. You're probably not cult leader by the same reasoning, but IDK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I am seriously considering Weapons as the last scum over Jalmont and I don't think this should be happening. Help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Wouldn't you normally consider Psych before Weapons haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 WAIT HE GOT CLEARED SHUT UP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 The main reason I would consider CL!Psych is the sheer number of cultproofs that are apparently in the game. If we assume cult started with one person, and that there are four mafia, cult also has 3 other flipped people they can't recruit (Via, Blitz and whoever his sidekick targets) and if you add in Psych, that's 11/20 players recruitable. If you consider that it's probably limited recruitment on top of that, having an almost 50% chance to fuck up a recruit really doesn't seem balance, especially when Jalmont is apparently a fulltime cultcop? ##Vote: Psych fuckit, vote goes here for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 OK, I think I've figured something out. So the setup is 5/1/1 and cult recruits on even nights, right? So assuming we mislynch, the CL COULD recruit tonight, and scum kills, the numbers would be 2/1/2 (which would be impossible for town to win unless they like NL and scum hits the CL). So wouldn't that imply that the CL can't cult today for whatever reason? I'm inclined to believe CL is Beli over Psych (and really 12/20 players isn't that much more significant than 11/20 players) because of that (assuming I didn't fuck something up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 ##Unvote for now cause that does make sense. A reminder that mechanic 1 exists (though I broke mechanic 5 last night ahahahahahaha). Not sure if that's referring to cop sanity or investigation modifiers, but like no one makes sense as mafia at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 The number of Cultproofs alone isn't the issue, it's that cult is presumably restricted in recruiting (unless it's Cultafia) and supposedly have Jalmont the cultcop around with no weapons to counter them. In Badass, we at least had really buff cult leader roles to help us get around stuff like that but there are no visible abilities that can be attributed to the cult atm (or the mafia, for that matter.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Unless there's like a hidden player or something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 The number of Cultproofs alone isn't the issue, it's that cult is presumably restricted in recruiting (unless it's Cultafia) and supposedly have Jalmont the cultcop around with no weapons to counter them. In Badass, we at least had really buff cult leader roles to help us get around stuff like that but there are no visible abilities that can be attributed to the cult atm (or the mafia, for that matter.) What if cult is strongwilled (that would leave the unrecruitables as the four mafia, Bizz, and Psych)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Just because people being roleblocked has cleared them of being scum doesn't mean they can't be the cult leader. Someone who was blocked has the potential to still be the CL and we're over looking that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 That's true but if they were blocked then they're less of a threat anyway. Why aren't you cult leader and who should we lynch instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalmont Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 damn this is a lot harder than i figured things to be... psych for me right now is just playing really passive, isn't really responding to the discussion, and i can just tell that psych right now is just coasting in terms of providing the bare minimum without really offering anything insightful. vote switch to me was very ??? indicating that i think psych is going with the flow atm bear afaik claimed he has no powers so he is essentially vanilla right? which wouldn't be true because there aren't any vanillas - it doesn't help him that he's laid down scummy votes, basically popping in to vote having failed to add in any relevant insight (thoughts on his driving partner being mafia, cult leader, etc). for all intents and purposes he is afk, yet he hasn't been subbed (kay was subbed out before him which is ??? considering kay was part of the hydra that could do the heavy lifting) and is hanging around enough that he could still be sending in kills? i just dunno the kirshe/sb thing is more based on most all of kirshe's posts bothering me. i've realized that they can self empower every two nights so in reality that claim is prolly legit especially considering presence of godfather (although vig is null, seriously anybody in that spot has to vig obv mafia) my issue with kirshe is kirshe is repetitive, contradictory, and seems to be at odds with SB. i think SB's unvote post seems apologetic for kishe's play which is ?? for me. the logic issue i have is that i'm fairly townie, kirshe doesn't buy bear's claim yet confident with a vote on me. to me that doesn't make sense. vote me if you want, but don't say "well i think x is lying better vote y!" but in any case if i'm correct in understanding the cop role the hydra should be legit (can u guys still cop)? weapons's attitude feels abrasive and in general i think is a lot like psych in terms of post content. his posts lately (including sb vote) are coming out of left field for me, without too much explanation. it feels changed from earlier where i felt he was decisive and clear, where he isn't as clear lately. i really just want him to explain himself for that last vote, and just be a bit more active in providing analysis instead of "ur vote i vote this guy instead" i'm just not sure right now. i'm feeling da bear > kirshe > psych > weapons/beli > refa overall in terms of bad vibes but the bear lynch just seems...too easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 the kirshe/sb thing is more based on most all of kirshe's posts bothering me. i've realized that they can self empower every two nights so in reality that claim is prolly legit especially considering presence of godfather (although vig is null, seriously anybody in that spot has to vig obv mafia) my issue with kirshe is kirshe is repetitive, contradictory, and seems to be at odds with SB. i think SB's unvote post seems apologetic for kishe's play which is ?? for me. the logic issue i have is that i'm fairly townie, kirshe doesn't buy bear's claim yet confident with a vote on me. to me that doesn't make sense. vote me if you want, but don't say "well i think x is lying better vote y!" but in any case if i'm correct in understanding the cop role the hydra should be legit (can u guys still cop)? The vig is telling because I could've just hidden it and forced us to waste the day lynching Mitsuki, meaning that Eli would've survived the day as well. If I was scum I would've ended up setting myself up to vote my other buddy right after the vig too, which is questionable at best. kirsche and I don't always have the same opinions because we aren't the same person, and we haven't been able to actually talk in realtime because kirsche is a chump posting from a Wii U. We can't still cop because we have no way of recharging; our empower is restricted so we can't target the same person twice. Being sick sucks but I'm rereading now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 What if cult is strongwilled (that would leave the unrecruitables as the four mafia, Bizz, and Psych)? Missed this. If cult was strongwilled, there was no reason Blitz would be ascetic imo, so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 bear afaik claimed he has no powers so he is essentially vanilla right? which wouldn't be true because there aren't any vanillas Again, this isn't really strictly true, he wasn't vanilla at the start of the game and there's nothing in the rules stating that you can't become vanillerised or equivalently so. i'm fairly townie, kirshe doesn't buy bear's claim yet confident with a vote on me.Where did I say I don't buy bear's claim? I've been fairly confident all game that bear was town based on his role, although now it's more of a not-mafia read. I did say that it was *possible* that bear had another part to his role but I deemed it more unlikely than just a solid mafia performance. My suspicion is based off of PoE more than anything, which is lame I admit, but fair. The rest is pretty solid overall or been addressed by SB but you still make the most sense as scum. Everyone else just has a good reason to be not-mafia except you: WoMC: Hard bus on eclipse. Bear: Strongwilled in a game where maf already have a strongwilled vig. Beli: Same as above, or Shinori idled for no reason. Me/SB: Elie's godfather implies alignment cop and our role pm says we're town. Refa: Cop clear -> would have to be second godfather or scum backup. Psych: Cop clear -> would have to be second godfather. Even if you're mafia I buy your claim and you can still help us look for cult so happy to leave your lynch for later <3 One oddity regarding weapons is that he claimed to break mechanic 5 last night yet I thought he was forced to target BBM because he was prims lover? Would like an explanation regarding that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 ##Vote: bearclaw I'm still reading, but If scum is still in the game and it isn't the cult killing, then I think this is it. I don't really agree on the "scum can't be strongwilled" thing just because eclipse had a Strongman, since there are plenty of redirects in this game and if scum die off quickly it results in Shinori becoming a supercop. Also, one hooker doesn't seem like enough to deal with all the flipped town roles, and the driver was never going to help scum if one of the neighbours was town. Having both of them as scum works because it gives them both built in fakeclaims and easy credit when the other flips, but bear and Eli had awful interactions. Eli isn't the kind of person to white knight townies for no reason as scum, especially when bear was under fire for quite a while during the day. It also didn't seem like bear or Eli made an attempt to investigate the other's alignment despite being QT buddies ever, or even talked about their reads beyond Refa being town apparently. I also have no idea why they would prioritize screwing over cult instead of scum with their drive, when saving an obvtown player (and possibly killing scum in the process) then potentially blocking a recruit that might not even be used every night. Looking at his other scum interactions, Boron spent a lot of D1 harping on bear but never when it actually mattered and could've easily backed off when he actually put up some content, if it looked like bear was going to get lynched. Mitsuki's opinions on bear D1 were mostly non-commital and her Day 2 suspicion on him came out of nowhere when she didn't bother to try and question him overnight when we were in the epicmafia pregame lobby either, which makes barely any sense considering her vote on him amounted to a glorified prod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Yeah, his associations are terrible, but couldn't that be because scum didn't want him to get lynched because of his role (assuming he's telling the truth, the same thing would happen to Elieson if bearclaw died; otherwise, they'd just kill him)? Like that's what I saw it as myself. Not sure who else I'd be willing to lynch besides Beli or Psych, though. Also I'd prefer to get cult leader lynched over mafia so that I don't get culted. Anyways, voting here for now because of things I said earlier. ##Vote: Belisarius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Also the last time I assumed there was a strongwilled scum, I lost the game. Not doing that this time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Scum don't actually get mileage out of the driver if one of them is town, they have to use it like a townie and it's kind of terrible. And you're making the same strongwilled assumption with Beli, so shrug. I don't like having to ignore the hook either but there's good reasons for everyone to be town at this point and strongwilled just seems like the most probable to me. Maybe trying to find CL would be better? idk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalmont Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 but sb/kirshe if you can only empower yourself once you aren''t much of a cop then are you? assuming you start with an inspect that's what two inspects? i mean with that argument we could easily say carpet monster was the real inspector i take your godfather argument though, i didn't really understand the whole mafiascum game (i thought everyone knew what everyone got? guess not) I just don't buy backup driver bearclaw i'm like 50/50 between bear and the hydra atm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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