Taking Beginning Japanese! (Now for Help With Homework)

[Chiki]

Japanese does have base/bare form, also referred to as stem-form or pre-masu form. For example

遊ぶ | あそぶ | asobu

遊びます | あそびます | asobimasu

遊び | あそび | asobi

If the bare form of a verb in Japanese is what you call its infinitival form, then it's not quite right to say that it's bare because it has agreement features with the infinitival head already. So it doesn't seem like Japanese has any true bare verbs unlike English, in which we do have words without any agreement features, like in the examples below.

In English it's different because we have a lot of different tests to get the bare form of a verb, like modals (I could kill a baby), do-insertion (I did eat someone), nonfinite clauses (I want to murder someone) and so on. A Japanese speaker might be able to tell us how these tests work in Japanese.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Chiki

[Esau of Isaac]

If you're just talking about plain usage, as in "to walk," then that exists. They're just referred to as "dictionary form" by most classes. I thought you were talking about them being used as verbal nouns when I saw you mention infinitive form.

In the previous example, asobu would be the dictionary form fwiw

[Chiki]

If you're just talking about plain usage, as in "to walk," then that exists. They're just referred to as "dictionary form" by most classes. I thought you were talking about them being used as verbal nouns when I saw you mention infinitive form.

In the previous example, asobu would be the dictionary form fwiw

No, what I mean by bare form is just "walk" without even the "to" in it. No features whatsoever apart from its meaning in it. It doesn't seem to be something that shows up in Japanese, unlike in English. Which understandably makes it tough for FionordeQuester.

[Flying Shogi]

No, what I mean by bare form is just "walk" without even the "to" in it.

I think about this from time to time. For some reason I have convinced myself that て form is what you're referring to.

I think what you call bare form is mostly used for single word sentences. Say you and your friend are crossing the street but said friend did not see a vehicle coming so you say "wait". To me, 待って sounds like a sufficient thing to say. I know that ~なさい can potentially be used here but that has a commanding connotation.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Magician Lugh

[Chiki]

I think about this from time to time. For some reason I have convinced myself that て form is what you're referring to.

I think what you call bare form is mostly used for single word sentences. Say you and your friend are crossing the street but said friend did not see a vehicle coming so you say "wait". To me, 待って sounds like a sufficient thing to say. I know that ~なさい can potentially be used here but that has a commanding connotation.

Maybe, you'd have to put it in other contexts (different kinds of sentences) and see what its inflectional form is.

[Esau of Isaac]

No, what I mean by bare form is just "walk" without even the "to" in it. No features whatsoever apart from its meaning in it. It doesn't seem to be something that shows up in Japanese, unlike in English. Which understandably makes it tough for FionordeQuester.

That is the infinitive form. So asobi, if we were using the first example.

[Chiki]

That is the infinitive form. So asobi, if we were using the first example.

Yes, in English, the infinitive verb is bare, because "to" is not in the verb "eat" in the sentence "I want to eat babies." The infinitival to and the verb are separated.

Not in Japanese, because the verb and "to" are combined into one word. Which is what makes it confusing. We have no way of knowing what the bare form of the verb actually is, or if there is such a thing.

[dondon151]

chiki, mind using an example with french or spanish so that we can draw parallels?

[Esau of Isaac]

Yes, in English, the infinitive verb is bare, because "to" is not in the verb "eat" in the sentence "I want to eat babies." The infinitival to and the verb are separated.

To is not in the verb when it is in the infinitive form in Japanese as well.

[TheEnd]

We have no way of knowing what the bare form of the verb actually is, or if there is such a thing.

While it gets trickier once you enter slang territory, Japanese verb conjugation follows very regular rules. Fionor was confused simply because he hadn't mastered them yet.

I believe you're trying too hard to apply English categories to Japanese. Don't forget they're completely different languages, derived from cultures that had no contact with each other until a couple centuries ago.

[Chiki]

While it gets trickier once you enter slang territory, Japanese verb conjugation follows very regular rules. Fionor was confused simply because he hadn't mastered them yet.

I believe you're trying too hard to apply English categories to Japanese. Don't forget they're completely different languages, derived from cultures that had no contact with each other until a couple centuries ago.

An idea accepted by all linguists today is that all languages have a "universal grammar."

It seems to me that MagicianLugh's suggestion was the best one to get the bare form of a verb. It works in every language I'm familiar with (and it worked perfectly in both of my native languages). So I would suggest that for FionordeQuester the next time he has trouble.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Chiki

[Dagon]

Languages have to have a universal grammar or it'd be a lot harder to learn other languages in the first place. Japanese isn't latin based so it's not really something you can categorize with english other than it being a language.

[FionordeQuester]

Languages have to have a universal grammar or it'd be a lot harder to learn other languages in the first place. Japanese isn't latin based so it's not really something you can categorize with english other than it being a language.

Heh, and that's tough enough already, at least with this one :P.

Anyways though, my next assignment was to write about my favorite restaurant, but, I still haven't been able to get IME figured out. Instead, I accidently downloaded some kind of Google input thing where my keyboard still typed in English, and only the search results were displayed in Japanese. So, I'm just going to show my teacher instead, as I feel like trying to write the whole thing out in English would be ridiculously inconvenient for you guys to try and read.

That said, if one of you could tell me where to download IME, that'd be awesome, as I haven't been able to find a page that wasn't in Japanese yet. Anyways, arigatoo, and thanks for all the thought you're putting into these posts! I mean really, thank you !

Edited November 25, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Esau of Isaac]

Just use this guide and you'll be good

Some advice after you've installed it. You don't need to go down and click on EN and manually change it to Japanese and then choose hiragana every time. I did that for a good year and it was frustrating as hell. Simply press alt+shift to switch to Japanese, and then alt+tilde to change the script from roomaji to hiragana. Speeds everything up quite a bit!

[TheEnd]

Just use this guide and you'll be good

Some advice after you've installed it. You don't need to go down and click on EN and manually change it to Japanese and then choose hiragana every time. I did that for a good year and it was frustrating as hell. Simply press alt+shift to switch to Japanese, and then alt+tilde to change the script from roomaji to hiragana. Speeds everything up quite a bit!

This reminds me, I should work on testing/setting a hotkey for the IME pad already.

Such a great tool, but manually opening the language bar every time I want to use it surely is a chore.

[Roxas]

While it gets trickier once you enter slang territory, Japanese verb conjugation follows very regular rules. Fionor was confused simply because he hadn't mastered them yet.

I believe you're trying too hard to apply English categories to Japanese. Don't forget they're completely different languages, derived from cultures that had no contact with each other until a couple centuries ago.

Unless you've taken Latin.

If you've gone through the grammatical hell that is classical Latin, you are ready for anything.

latin makes japanese 201 its bitch.

[Dagon]

Heh, and that's tough enough already, at least with this one :P.

Anyways though, my next assignment was to write about my favorite restaurant, but, I still haven't been able to get IME figured out. Instead, I accidently downloaded some kind of Google input thing where my keyboard still typed in English, and only the search results were displayed in Japanese. So, I'm just going to show my teacher instead, as I feel like trying to write the whole thing out in English would be ridiculously inconvenient for you guys to try and read.

That said, if one of you could tell me where to download IME, that'd be awesome, as I haven't been able to find a page that wasn't in Japanese yet. Anyways, arigatoo, and thanks for all the thought you're putting into these posts! I mean really, thank you !

It's worth adding to your computer because you press the spacebar you get kanji for the hiragana characters you type in. Don't abuse it though.

[jeanlinkroy]

Now, I've gotten to the part where we're talking about "Ru Verbs", "U Verbs", and "Irregular Verbs". So far, I understand most of it, except, there's one thing tripping me up. My book says that "To do" and "To come" are the only two irregular verbs, and yet, the worksheet I was assigned says that "to study" is also an irregular verb. What's more, my book doesn't say how to conjugate it in it's present and negative forms. So I did a Google search, and that didn't help because when "Benkyou Suru" was listed, some sources said that was the dictionary form, and some sources said that that was the plain version of the present affirmative form. So I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to that...

Another question I have, I'm not totally sure as to how exactly I know what the word stems of a word are. Eventually, I just figured "Well, maybe with all 'Ru' verbs, all I have to do is remove the 'Ru' hirigana and slap on the 'Masu' and 'Masen' at the end of it (the book doesn't seem to have introduced the plain versions of words yet), but, still not ENTIRELY sure if that's correct.

Anyways, I know some of you, like Esau of Isaac, know Japanese, so if anyone can help, that'd be really appreciated! But in any case, have a nice day, and God bless you all :) !

about the Ru verbs you re right and i wish even more japanese especially kanji

[Flying Shogi]

about the Ru verbs you re right and i wish even more japanese especially kanji

Do you mean you wish you knew more Kanji?

Here's my beef with Kanji. There's not a good way to learn Kanji other than to write it repeatedly and even then it won't always stick. To go from Hiragana and Katakana to Kanji is hard as they're just different. I'm Chinese so it comes easier for me but I can't help but think that it's really not fair for non-Chinese people learning Japanese. However, that is not to say being Chinese doesn't come with its problems when learning Kanji. I've noticed that some other Chinese classmates sometimes seem to have trouble remembering the Japanese readings of the Kanji(I think there's a term for this). In some cases when the Chinese pronunciation is close to its Japanese counterpart, it trips them up. I somehow do not have this problem as my daily Chinese usage is significantly lower than that of my Chinese classmates as it's at zero other than the Kanji I see in class/for homework.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Magician Lugh

[Chiki]

Kanji should just be abandoned.

[TheEnd]

Kanji is incredibly convenient once you're familiar with it.

Edited December 9, 2014 by OldMan

[Esau of Isaac]

Kanji should just be abandoned.

Why? It's an effective system of communication. It has its downs but as someone who took the language outside of any Asian language background, I learned it well enough, and the ups of it have definitely outweighed the downs.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Esau of Isaac

[Chiki]

Why? It's an effective system of communication. It has its downs but as someone who took the language outside of any Asian language background, I learned it well enough, and the ups of it have definitely outweighed the downs.

It's a pain in the ass to memorize.

[Fruity Insanity]

Kanji's fun to memorize, though.

[TheEnd]

It's a pain in the ass to memorize.

English is a pain in the ass to speak, it should be a written-only language.

Japanese reading simply isn't practical without kanji. And there's also the cultural appeal...