Challenge Concept: No Second Seal SR Apoth

[Airship Canon]

...Now I've not done the Theorycrafting yet, but...

Here's a bit of a challenge, [i don't know if I'll embark on it myself, but...]

The concept is simple: No. Second Seals. EVER. [Cue Barabatos beating things with his Axe]

[Also to keep things in line: Universally Reliable Resources only. Streetpass Abuse is out, Annas are out... basically you can only get a limited number of statboosters]

Characters who have had Second Seals used in their history are illegal. They can be used for preparation, but not for execution.

DLC and Spotpass characters must be "fresh" [i.E. while Katarina is legal, she must be a L20 Grandmaster with either her 5 skills at base or DLC skills [All+2, Paragon, Iote's, Limit]]

Limit is legal, but may be difficult to empower.

Base thoughts towards stats:

Manakete and Taguel can only get 30 levels, so they're fairly unoptimal, even outside other limitations.

Kids are gonna carry. [They get 66 levels for stats effectively thanks to inheritance. [Yarne/Nah get 53, and a third gen, non Taguel, non Manakete Morgan can get 78]]

Sumia is the best possible mother for Lucina, eclipsing all others [even F!Robin] with ease [Galeforce].

Katarina is probably gonna be necessary [only way to have a solid rally stack]

This challenge would require an entirely different approach than all the others. Stats will matter. Inherited skills will matter.

[Carmine Sword]

For the kids who have 2 choices for their promotion, would certain classes be preferable? For example, would Severa (Inigo too I guess) prefer The axes and possibly higher stats of Hero (I say possibly due to the fact that she may not cap all of her stats), or Bow Knight for more move and bows for a ranged brave weapon?

[Airship Canon]

For the kids who have 2 choices for their promotion, would certain classes be preferable? For example, would Severa (Inigo too I guess) prefer The axes and possibly higher stats of Hero (I say possibly due to the fact that she may not cap all of her stats), or Bow Knight for more move and bows for a ranged brave weapon?

That's all part of what would need to be calculated before things get really rolling.

All characters except Lords and Tacticians have split promotions.

PKs are probably going DF though.

...

Another preliminary thought:

MaMU > FeMU

[And Cynthia is MaMU's best wife, but I'll be getting to things]

Using FeMU effectively cuts 2 APT from you if MU is deployed.

FeMU cannot marry a guy who has Gale, as all the Galeboys require Reclassing on their mother's end to get their Gale.

Male Morgan cannot gain Galeforce either.

Cynthia is probably the best, since she can pass Double Proc/Gale to Morgan [Aether/Ignis inherited, Gale learned]. She's also second gen, which allows a bit more stat pushing on Morgan.

[And marrying first gen PKs has no increase in APT. 2 Kids with Ignis and Gale, but that's no increase to the amount of Gale]

[Fateborn]

Wouldn't Lucina be better mother for Morgan considering she can get Galeforce too?

#biased

[LordFrigid]

Wouldn't Lucina be better mother for Morgan considering she can get Galeforce too?

#biased

Lucina!Morgan starts as a Tactician, and Lucina can only pass Aether...so since there are no Seconds Morgan wouldn't be able to get Galeforce. Of course the assumption there is that no-Galeforce is a problem.

[Czar_Yoshi]

This is very interesting. Massive post coming through.

Given the rarity of natural GF, I'm not sure playing with a full 7 pairs is the best way to go for this. Since Staffbots are in good supply, though, mobility shouldn't be too much of an issue- it's probably a good idea to use more like 4-5 pairs and use the rest of the room for utility. Fewer pairs would also make it easier to hit everyone with Rallies, since you're going to likely have more than two Rallybots.

So, Rallies: first, I'm guessing "no Second Seals" also applies to Wedding Bouquets and Dread Scrolls, so if Rally heart is desired, DLC!Eirika is required. She's pretty weak otherwise, so she may not be worth it. The other characters who deserve mention as good Rallybot candidates:

-Katarina: Obvious.

-Palla: The only Rally Str user with 8 Mov. Also comes with Spd- completely eclipsed by Katarina, but still worth mentioning.

-Julia: Has Rally Mov, which is very rare due to there being no Spotpass DFs. Rally Mag as a secondary.

-Saias: Mag/Spc. He's the only non-Katarina Spectrum user.

There are others, but there are the most unique.

As for staffbots, the only one that really stands out is Ursula, with a natural Valkyrie/TF combo. If using any Spotpass units directly for combat, the three that stand out the most are King Marth (RK/Astra/Luna combo, 41 base Spd), Sephiran (Sage with Vengeance, 38 base Spd) and DLC!Est (35 levels of Aptitude as a Peg with Luna/GF, the only proc/GF Spotpass unit- she'd want to go Falco because of her mods, though. While Aptitude wouldn't put her over 100 in any growth, it would make resetting for her stats much easier).

Also, the main story has (including Renown) 8 Seraph Robes, 6 Energy Drops, 6 Spirit Dusts, 5 Secret Books, 6 Speedwings, 6 Goddess Icons, 6 Dracoshields, 6 Talismans, and 2 Naga's Tears. I don't know why there are only 5 Secret Books, maybe it's an error in SF's data, maybe it just feels like breaking the pattern. Anyway, having a smaller pool of attack units would let you focus these more, so that's another reason to keep it small (I haven't had much experience with low-stat Apo challenge runs, but I know that in normal gameplay extra Apt don't make as big of a difference once you've hit 10 as they do below it.

Speedwings would likely be in the highest demand, as there are a lot of important Spd thresholds that would be very hard to hit with a limited number of levelups. The minimum acceptable Spd for S.Apo on anything is 51 (avoids doubling by quite a lot of things), but since Rallies are on the table 60 really should be everyone's target. If a 66 or 69 unit could be obtained, that would be fabulous depending on what they were. 75 is probably out of reach to anyone but Morgan, and I'm honestly not sure it matters since everything with 70 Spd is really frail.

So, for actually setting this up, I feel like Frederick Emblem is the way to go until the Outrealm Gate becomes available- it's much harder to manipulate levelups when you're getting multiples per map. Though tedious, it really would be beneficial to always get perfect levels because then the final stats can be calculated before assembling the team, allowing for better threshold manipulation. Fred will likely be unused as a father due to his terribad bases, and is thus a safe exp sink for earlygame.

As for who else to use... Yarne and Nah have no Braves, so they're off the table. Chrom's family is definitely in. As Noire is naturally a vengeance Sniper before her dad's contribution, she fits in well too. Kjelle is stuck as a slow Knight, so she'll probably get left behind too. Severa inherits GF and has two strong promotions, so she's probably in. For fielded attack pairs, that leaves us with:

Sumia@DF x Chrom@GL (assuming they'll be used- it would be a shame to waste DS+ and GF, even though their stats will be a bit weaker than normal)

Lucina@GL x ?

Cynthia@DF x Avatar@GM

Morgan@DF x ?

?!Severa x ?

?!Noire@Sniper x ?

Four husbands are needed. Morgan would like Magical, the rest can take either. Only Yarne is off the table, so we've got Laurent (Sage with mag+2 and TF, but limited passdown options from Miriel), Gerome (likely as a Wyvern Lord with Lancebreaker inherited, unfortunately there are no Barb fathers), Owain (his best bet would be with a BF dad (Virion) as an Assassin, but would have underwhelming DSes), Brady (Sage and DS+ from Maribelle), and Inigo (two good support classes, but lacking in offensive mods).

Of those, there are several choices. Let's break this down into a table of who gives what to who.

Fred: off the table due to bad bases.

Virion: Hit+20 (wanted by Gerome), BF (wanted by BK!Severa, BK!Inigo, and Assassin!Owain)

Vaike: Axebreaker (wanted by Gerome, Noire)

Stahl: Luna (wanted by Severa)

Kellam: off the table due to being outclassed by Stahl.

Lon'qu: SF (wanted by Severa, Assassin!Owain, Inigo), high Spd mod (wanted by everyone)

Ricken: Mag+2 (wanted by Brady)

Gaius: off the table due to having nothing anyone want.

Gregor: AT (wanted by Noire for DB conservation, since they aren't renewable)

Libra: off the table due to bad bases.

Henry: Vengeance (wanted by Severa and Brady), Hex/Anathema (wanted by Gerome)

OK, Owain only wants things that very high demand fathers have (Virion and Lon'qu), has no good passdowns from Lissa and will have the most underwhelming DSes of the group, so I think he's the one to go. That means Lucina, Severa, Morgan and Noire get to split up Laurent, Gerome, Inigo and Brady. Laurent and Brady are clearly magical, so one of them has to go to Morgan. Of these, I think Noire's father is fairly clear-cut as Gregor, since nobody else wants him and he helps her in both mods and skills. Now I'll organize this by child again:

Severa: Lon'qu, Henry, Stahl

Gerome: Virion, Vaike

Laurent: Lon'qu, Henry

Inigo: Lon'qu, Virion

Brady: Ricken, Henry

Alright, this is fairly tight, but I think Ricken!Brady is pretty clear cut. From there, there are only three of Lon'qu, Virion and Henry and four who want them, so one of Severa and Gerome will have to compromise and take Stahl or Vaike. Stahl!Severa is probably the more appealing of the two, though loading Gerome down with Breakers does sound interesting. I'm seeing three different good sets here, each determined by Severa's pairing:

Set 1: Stahl!Severa, Virion!Gerome, Henry!Laurent, Lon'qu!Inigo

Set 2: Lon'qu!Severa, Vaike!Gerome, Henry!Laurent, Virion!Inigo

Set 3: Henry!Severa, Vaike!Gerome, Lon'qu!Laurent, Virion!Inigo

So I'm thinking that any way this goes, Laurent is going to wind up with Lucina. Either he has Vantage and can sweep small-time mooks, or he has Vengeance + 100% DS and can be a boss killer. That leaves Brady for Morgan, because she wants a magical support. Since she has Ignis, it's fine that he has no proc and will stay in the back. Between Inigo and Gerome for Noire and Severa, it'll depend on the set- Lon'qu/Henry!Severa will get Gerome, Stahl!Severa will get Inigo (reasoning being that Henry!Severa is going max offense and wants the big DS power, Lon'qu!Severa is fast and won't mind the no +Spd from Gerome, and Stahl!Severa is a middle ground and would be better off giving Gerome to someone else who can use him.

I'm not going to do stat calcs now, it's too late. But I think this run has a good chance of being worth putting effort into (I just spent an hour writing this, after all) and may even do it myself if there are no other takers. if anyone wants to expand upon this start, please do.

[fengaridotdll]

So.. basically kinda like Sacred Stones without that level decrease fruit thingy?

[Czar_Yoshi]

More like every FE except Awakening. Level resets are new, previous games that had reclassing didn't reset your level for it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Tables]

I've thought about this one before (I was initially considering trying Apotheosis with my no SS Lunatic team), and I think that if you allow shop bought stat boosters, reseting for level ups and so on then it's theoretially fairly easy because your stats end up so good (even if your skills are suboptimal). If you don't, it should be a bit trickier, but it also becomes a lot more down to the whims of the RNG (if you get low stats, you're in a much worse position just by chance).

[Ownagepuffs]

Anything I could possibly add wouldn't be anywhere near as useful as Czar or Tables,but I'll give my input.

If no second seals, then are growths for the kids now a thing? As Czar said, high speed is a godsend. I'm all for allowing stat boosters from shops to fix bad level ups as well.

[Airship Canon]

The catch is that the raw stats of combining Limit Breaker and the ability to farm boosts renders the entire thing obsolete.

[Vascela]

The catch is that the raw stats of combining Limit Breaker and the ability to farm boosts renders the entire thing obsolete.

So ban DLC and say it's singleton classes/skills too. Personally, I wouldn't want to reset for perfect levels over and over again (because that would be the ideal method). Can't say that it's a fun ride. This tweak seems pretty fair. For example, Virion!Owain could be an Assassin, but not be allowed to have bowfaire and hit rate +20 (since Owain could only inherit one without getting the other himself).

Characters who have had Second Seals used in their history are illegal. They can be used for preparation, but not for execution.

Point of clarification: does this mean Cherche can prepare DuSu+ via Second Seal and pass to Yarne at the consequence of not being able to field Cherche? Or Second cannot be used in preperation for skills?

[eclipse]

How 'bout using Renown stat boosters to bring a stat up to what it should be, on average? That way, if the RNG decides to be stupid, you've got a backup (well, it'll be a bit more difficult with the Seraph Robe, but the others should work).

[Alastor15243]

Obviously this makes Donnel far more useful. A good contender for best Morgan would be Donnel!Severa!Morgan. Probably the only morgan that has a chance of coming close to LB stat caps.

[Czar_Yoshi]

The catch is that the raw stats of combining Limit Breaker and the ability to farm boosts renders the entire thing obsolete.

I wonder what a run of Apo where LB and Rallies are the only skills allowed would look like.

So ban DLC and say it's singleton classes/skills too. Personally, I wouldn't want to reset for perfect levels over and over again (because that would be the ideal method). Can't say that it's a fun ride. This tweak seems pretty fair. For example, Virion!Owain could be an Assassin, but not be allowed to have bowfaire and hit rate +20 (since Owain could only inherit one without getting the other himself).

Characters who have had Second Seals used in their history are illegal. They can be used for preparation, but not for execution.

Point of clarification: does this mean Cherche can prepare DuSu+ via Second Seal and pass to Yarne at the consequence of not being able to field Cherche? Or Second cannot be used in preperation for skills?

Banning DLC... If that included no Katarina, that would be a serious drag on the run. It wouldn't exactly be no DLC/Rally with extra skill restrictions, but with the added headache of having lots of 6 Mov Rallybots with no more than two Rallies each, it would be pretty close. I'm not AC but I'm fairly sure Second Seals would not be allowed for preparing skills to pass down (you could do whatever you want with them once you've recruited the child, though).

How 'bout using Renown stat boosters to bring a stat up to what it should be, on average? That way, if the RNG decides to be stupid, you've got a backup (well, it'll be a bit more difficult with the Seraph Robe, but the others should work).

You could, yes. But in a completely optimal setting, you'd have everyone getting perfect levelups, and then adding statboosters on top of that to get your stats even higher.

Obviously this makes Donnel far more useful. A good contender for best Morgan would be Donnel!Severa!Morgan. Probably the only morgan that has a chance of coming close to LB stat caps.

Donnel would be nice for shaving off resets during preparation, yes. However, Aptitude wouldn't actually increase the maximum amount of stats it's possible to get unless it makes any of your growths break 100 (which, in my experience, it never does outside of HP), and since Donnel both has tiny caps and only 30 levels, he'll pass much worse bases than any other father, and thus have a worse best-case scenario than most of the other fathers.

I'd like to propose a compromise on the statboosters: how about we do some math to figure out what stats the children would have if everyone always got perfect levelups, then use farmed boosters to get them that high (and only that high), setting aside the number of boosters normally obtainable in the game for further use? It would cut down on the resets involved in preparation, but wouldn't change any of the actual Apo play.

[eclipse]

It'll change the stat numbers pretty drastically. I'm not sure whether assuming perfect levels is what TC had in mind, since it's a guaranteed +19 and then some to every stat.

[isetrh]

If you're going by what stat numbers theoretically "should" be, you could also go by characters' averages, but I don't know if that would make things too hard.

[Ownagepuffs]

IIRC the growths for Awakening aren't 100% right so averages would be slightly inaccurate.

[Tables]

IIRC the growths for Awakening aren't 100% right so averages would be slightly inaccurate.

I believe through ROM checking we're now fairly confident in them, asides from a few here and there that are odd.

Anyway doing this as a theoretical excercise, using character averages is likely the most sensible - with all the normally available statboosters available. We should probably disallow Anna Shops in general though - there's not really a lot they offer that you can't get elsewhere anyway, except for statboosters. We'd still have Spotpass teams for things like Fortify Staves, Celica's Gale and so on.

If we go down this route, I would agree that Donnel as Morgan's granddad is likely the best route. Who he should sire specifically is a little trickier to work out, but I would except Severa as Alastor says for the purpose of getting Galeforce. Other options could be Laurent for a magic based Donnel, but I don't think that's worth losing Galeforce for.

[Alastor15243]

Regarding the issues with Donnel having low caps and bases and 30 levels, I don't think that's a huge problem. Stick limit breaker on him while training him up, and he shouldn't cap out too early. And besides, the levels of parents are worth like a third of the levels of children, and less still for grandchildren, so the -10 levels Donnel gets will have an extremely negligible impact on Morgan's ultimate stats compared to the boost he gets overall from three generations of Aptitude.

[Tables]

Regarding the issues with Donnel having low caps and bases and 30 levels, I don't think that's a huge problem. Stick limit breaker on him while training him up, and he shouldn't cap out too early. And besides, the levels of parents are worth like a third of the levels of children, and less still for grandchildren, so the -10 levels Donnel gets will have an extremely negligible impact on Morgan's ultimate stats compared to the boost he gets overall from three generations of Aptitude.

Yep, this is all correct. Also note that although Donnel's caps are low, his class bases are also low, meaning he's actually gaining slightly more than it looks like (comparable to an unpromoted units caps, which isn't much less than most gen 1's end up with on average in terms of personal stats. Obviously this assumes we're caring about using character averages not RNG. If we can get LB on him the entire issue disappears though.

[~Silver]

Just... Taking in this thread...

...IT HURTS.

So what's going on here at the moment, is that the moment Donnel gets hitched... The man's being cast aside?

Edited November 18, 2014 by ~Silver

[Czar_Yoshi]

That happens to all non-Chrom/Avatar parents (and their spouses) in pretty much any Apo challenge run ever (except those that mandate no children).

Even if this were a normal run, Donnel has one of the weakest skillsets of any gen 1 unit combined with the worst mods, so he'd be the first to go for sure.

And just sayin', but you'll have to reset for average stats as well. Not as much as perfect levels, but it'll still be very tedious toward the end.

[isetrh]

And just sayin', but you'll have to reset for average stats as well. Not as much as perfect levels, but it'll still be very tedious toward the end.

I wasn't suggesting it as a way to save time, just as one standard that could be used. I don't know how hard it already is with perfect levels though, and when I think about it using averages would probably ruin a lot of things, like Sumia's magic.

[Alastor15243]

So... looks like if we only use galeforce children as attackers, this challenge run means a max of 8 APT, With Cynthia, Sumia!Lucina, Severa and Cordelia/Sumia/Severa/Cynthia/Aversa!Morgan being the only possible children who can have galeforce.

So let's talk the three competing wives for Robin: Cordelia, Severa, Aversa.

The benefits of Severa!Morgan (particularly Donnel!Severa!Morgan) have already been discussed, Cordelia!Morgan grants avatar's mods and potentially Ignis to Severa as well (though the latter probably won't do her too much good as a hero/bow knight), and Aversa means that Morgan can use dark magic, which includes the potentially-useful Mire tome, as a dark flier.