Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?

[Chiki]

Specifically, it's meaningless to people who don't agree with your definition.

Which raises the question: who you do those LTC/challenge runs for? Are they for your own personal enjoyment? Then you shouldn't need to convince anyone of their legitimacy (or even have rules for them to be legitimate by sticking to). You could slow down for a run as much as is needed to make things reliable enough for your tastes, and if you're not playing as fast as possible, there's nobody to "disqualify" your run for not holding up to a standard of rules.

If they're a performance for an audience, then all you really need to do is make it be entertaining. Nobody cares about what specific rules you're following so long as it looks cool (which even a loosely defined efficiency run in the hands of a skilled player who doesn't make too many obvious mistakes can). In the case of you vs Int, you're both playing with personally defined rules and thus will have separate rankings for character usefulness, and nothing can be done to change that unless one of you plays by the other's rules.

If they're a competition against someone else to see who can do something better, though, then yeah, you both need to be playing by the same rules. And that's also a problem: if you want to say you're better than someone else and be able to prove it, you need to beat them on level ground. I've seen your stuff and don't doubt your ability, but since you don't have a common metric to compare performance by, you're going to get nowhere using personal skill as a factor in arguments. In Nowi's case, it's less of Int not being capable of playing as fast as you and more of Int just not playing as fast as you, regardless of talent. Nowi performs good in one setting and bad in another. It's that simple.

I do the runs for myself. I'm not so sure about the bolded part. There is level ground. I believe his FE10 efficiency run is 123 turns slower than mine. On my first efficiency run (with minimal RNG abuse, may I add), I saved slightly under 100 turns. Infer from that what you will.

The key word is everyone. If enough people are willing to agree on it, then a few dissenters don't make the entire thing meaningless. Otherwise, like I repeatedly outlined, we'd have to admit that even our methods of communication are arbitrary because of the ability of someone else to insist on the definition of a word not being what it is widely agreed to be.

Ok, but you still need a ratio of turns saved vs efficiency, which I don't see people agreeing on.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Chiki

[Irysa]

Ok, but you still need a ratio of turns saved vs efficiency, which I don't see people agreeing on.

Versus reliability you mean. The ratio does not have to be entirely set in stone, it just has to be there as a reasonable benchmark with some leeway. If someone wants to call into question the actual examples, and can present a reason for it (isn't reliable enough/wastes too much time/etc) then it can be talked out until it is more broadly agreed upon. Like, reliability is calculatable, and turns are a static number, so this isn't really as vague as you seem to think it is.

[Interceptor]

Nos eclipses all weapon types. I'm speaking for RTA on L+/Classic. No forges are necessary. Effective weapons are not as valuable, and not all recruitment is done. What you and I might define as "success" probably varies, RTA is something that you should at least understand my point of view (even if you disagree with it).

Nosferatu is even better forged: +mt and especially +crit both contribute to OHKO scenarios, and even +HIT has a place (can't leech if you can't hit, and enemies are highly accurate and hurt badly). Armsthrift means never having to replace an epic forge, and never having a *womp womp* situation where it breaks in the middle of combat. Forges are objectively better, Armsthrift makes forged combat more common, Fin.

I actually understand your point of view perfectly: the issue here is that you're being stubborn about admitting a mistake, and I'm not feeling particularly charitable this week, so here we are.

I brought up Chrom's classes because Chrom is only providing +Luk in a specific class that even you recommend he seals out of (mainly into Bow Knight/Sniper). I think it's definitely worth bringing up simply because it's you and not someone else. You look one way and say be a bow user, then come into a topic and say he should be a great lord. He can't be both at the same time.

I don't say he should be anything, just that Great Lord is an option (see also: Lucina). In the PT that I referenced, he actually DID stay as a Great Lord, which means that I was crushing the 100% AT cap as soon as the first Walhart encounter at Ch19. I mean, it's obvious that you're not even looking at the data here, and to be frank I'm a little bit embarrassed for you.

It's completely realistic of me to say that in the real game world, 100% AT isn't something to be attained.

Oh, so the playthrough where I got 100% AT on four different units took place in some sort of fantasy fever-dream? That was a real game, you know. It was so real, that quite a few Awakening players modeled their own PTs after it, and were successful.

Do you have anything else you want to add here, or were you just planning to keep pretending that 100% AT is "never" going to happen, even though I pulled it off a year before you even had a Serenes Forest forum account?

There is level ground. I believe his FE10 efficiency run is 123 turns slower than mine. On my first efficiency run (with minimal RNG abuse, may I add), I saved slightly under 100 turns. Infer from that what you will.

Ahh, thanks for bringing up my Radiant Dawn run. Since I was careful to document the parameters of the run in the OP, it's a perfect example of the dangers of ignoring context. In fact, the point of the thing was just to establish a baseline for what an "efficient" playthrough might look like if you followed the guidelines of the FE10 tier list (at the time). To wit, in this playthrough I was:

- Specifically not speedrunning.

- Doing very little planning ahead.

- Routing Boss kill chapters for EXP.

- Using a "pretty good" team; not the optimal team, and not a Haar-solo.

Any of those items on their own would invalidate it as a candidate for a comparison with an LTC run, and math wizards will note that there are several of those things. If this is an example of "level ground" for you, what would it take to have ground that wasn't "level"? Micaiah as my team's main tank?

I think perhaps that reasonable people would look at this example, and come to the conclusion that you 1) serially ignore context, and 2) internalize "efficiency" to always mean your personal definition. Those two things are really detrimental to any sort of reasonable discussion.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Interceptor

[Vascela]

1. I wouldn't say that forges are necessarily exclusively better. Excess in a few stats during mid/late game on Nos isn't noticed. AT does mean there are less reproduction of forges, but the game is very generous in the first place (minus the beginning, but even you should concede that AT isn't really online when funds are "limited"). And having a weapon break in the middle of fights is pure miscalculation. This doesn't hold water when the player knows that a 20 use tome doesn't last an entire battle.

2. The numbers I listed were roughly around chapter ~15 being ~50% AT. If you tack on G.Lord, then yes, you are closing the gap. By around chapter 20 I wouldn't be surprised if you were having high AT%. Especially when only a 1/3 of the game is left. Excluding a singular class pair up, the AT values do drop quite a bit.

3. I genuinely do not care how long you've had or I've had an account on Serenes (this really makes me want to question your credibility out of disrespect). I've played FE since ~05, but again like I said before I am not attacking your credibility, I am simply posting numbers from the site following a simple Luk calculation. Don't be offended! I'm simply stating a systematic approach to average stat calculations. You are taking this way out of context.

[Interceptor]

I wouldn't say that forges are necessarily exclusively better.

I didn't really ask for your opinion on it. Forges are objectively better than non-forges in the grand scheme of things, an arguing from the island where a vanilla weapon has a situational advantage is a very lonely place to be standing. The game is generous with funds, but they are not so plentiful as to be unlimited. A weapon breaking in the middle of a fight is more than just a "miscalculation" when you're facing the kind of combat that lategame Awakening has in store.

Is there anything else you'd like to look silly on with regard to this topic? You've already got egg in your face by claiming that 100% AT doesn't happen, and now you've compounded it by downplaying the power of forges.

The numbers I listed were roughly around chapter ~15 being ~50% AT. If you tack on G.Lord, then yes, you are closing the gap. By around chapter 20 I wouldn't be surprised if you were having high AT%. Especially when only a 1/3 of the game is left. Excluding a singular class pair up, the AT values do drop quite a bit.

The numbers you listed are made-up fairy figures. I have a LCK-screwed Robin with a 64% base AT activation rate at the end of Ch10. That rate climbs to 80% with nothing more than a Chrom support and a LCK tonic. Chapter 10. Not even at the Valm arc yet. There aren't even any 2nd gen units in play, and already I possessed a unit that was 10 LCK off of 100% AT activation.

Ch15? By Ch15 there are already three units with a 68%+ AT rate.

I genuinely do not care how long you've had or I've had an account on Serenes (this really makes me want to question your credibility out of disrespect). I've played FE since ~05, but again like I said before I am not attacking your credibility, I am simply posting numbers from the site following a simple Luk calculation. Don't be offended! I'm simply stating a systematic approach to average stat calculations. You are taking this way out of context.

Feel free to question my credibility to your heart's content; you can see how well it's been working for everyone else, maybe you can be the Bob Woodward that blows the whole conspiracy apart. Godspeed.

I brought up the timeline just to show how out of date your "never 100% AT" assertion was. This isn't something that I just did yesterday: it's been in the books for basically two years. Your LCK calculation isn't broken: your experience distribution estimate is.

[Vascela]

Forges are not objectively better. The "more is better" falls under the same category as damage and accuracy. If you have a unit than can do 20x2 against an enemy and one that does 39x2 against an enemy with 40 HP, it's roughly the exact same result. You wouldn't give hit rate+20 to a unit that always has 100% accuracy now would you? Spending extra cash on something that's pretty arbitrary doesn't make it objectively better. You and I both know that whether or not you forge Nos doesn't matter when all you care about it completing the map.

You call it made up fairy numbers, I call it an estimate assuming you are using 3-5 units for a steady flow of EXP (assuming at least Lunatic). Luck isn't tied to class nor does it have a promo gain. Going at 0.4 Luck per level is a climb that takes time. When you don't see high AT% for over half the game, it's just reasonable to say that it isn't always 100% online. When you have class specific pair ups with only 5 chapters left in the game, then you will probably have high% to 100% (again dependent on stat boosters and a specific pair up that you might not have current access to).

I don't support any argument between you and Chiki (that's your own business), and I also don't support the idea of "I'm better than you, and I will claim this every time I post" that both of you do.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Vascela

[Interceptor]

Forges are not objectively better. The "more is better" falls under the same category as damage and accuracy. If you have a unit than can do 20x2 against an enemy and one that does 39x2 against an enemy with 40 HP, it's roughly the exact same result. You wouldn't give hit rate+20 to a unit that always has 100% accuracy now would you? Spending extra cash on something that's pretty arbitrary doesn't make it objectively better. You and I both know that whether or not you forge Nos doesn't matter when all you care about it completing the map.

Please. Even if you are already hitting damage and hit rate thresholds, even something like forging crit will allow you to evade both Counter and retaliations. And even in the case where you hit kill thresholds, forges let you redistribute resources (like Pair-ups) somewhere else, since you have overkill stats to spare.

You and I both know that Sorcerer!Laurent is going to be measurably more survivable if he can leech health without taking damage or whiffing. Not that Nosferatu is the only reason for forging (see also: glass weaponry, 1-2 range weapons, braves, etc), it's just a particularly good one.

You call it made up fairy numbers, I call it an estimate assuming [...]

You can call it an "orange" too, but that doesn't mean that it has vitamin C. Like I said: your estimates are broken. I have a real-life example of EXP distribution that disagrees with your spitballing. I'd say that reality > unicorns.

When you don't see high AT% for over half the game, it's just reasonable to say that it isn't always 100% online.

More's the pity that you never actually made that argument in the first place. Just to review: "But for in the game world, you never have 100% proc".

"Never" is a pretty strong word, you know.

I don't support any argument between you and Chiki (that's your own business), and I also don't support the idea of "I'm better than you, and I will claim this every time I post" that both of you do.

Nonsense. I don't proclaim myself better than other people, I'm just really rude and condescending.

[Vascela]

I'm sorry, I'll take back that statement. Never would be an incorrect statement. Realistically you will only have 100% AT for about 5 endgame chapters.

[Arky]

You don't NEED 100% AT for it to be pretty rad.

Even at 50%, it's pretty useful.

Anywhere near 80% and it's great.

[Vascela]

You don't NEED 100% AT for it to be pretty rad.

Even at 50%, it's pretty useful.

Anywhere near 80% and it's great.

I wholeheartedly agree. It serves a a very nice in game purpose.

[Alisa180]

So many people are saying Donnel is the worst unit...I don't completely get it. On all of my Normal and Hard playthroughs, he always ends up as one of my frontline units, and pretty much a god.

Then again, I assume this is without DLC, since I usually grind him in EXPonential Growth...

Worst unit: Virion. Archers in general suck in this game. Or I just suck at using them. In either case, I've found him pretty much useless, except for fathering one of the kids. If I need range, a mage serves my purposes far better. Which is too bad, since he's one of my favorites personality-wise.

[Vascela]

So many people are saying Donnel is the worst unit...I don't completely get it. On all of my Normal and Hard playthroughs, he always ends up as one of my frontline units, and pretty much a god.

Then again, I assume this is without DLC, since I usually grind him in EXPonential Growth...

Worst unit: Virion. Archers in general suck in this game. Or I just suck at using them. In either case, I've found him pretty much useless, except for fathering one of the kids. If I need range, a mage serves my purposes far better. Which is too bad, since he's one of my favorites personality-wise.

How good do you think your Virion would fare if he was fed through the EXPonential growth a few times too many? With or without DLC, it's just a matter of requiring a bit more than others to perform above [or at] the norm.

[Knusperkeks]

On all of my Normal and Hard playthroughs, he always ends up as one of my frontline units, and pretty much a god.

Then again, I assume this is without DLC, since I usually grind him in EXPonential Growth...

How can you not understand that anyone who runs through EXPgrowth will end up as a god?

How can you assume that normal mode can be used as a legit benchmark for a characters performance?

So many people are saying Donnel is the worst unit...I don't completely get it.

He does have Magikarp power, but his stat caps are extremely bad, which ends up hurting him.

He doesn't have Lethality, Aether, Astra, Luna, Ignis or Vengeance. He doesn't have a weapon faire. He doesn't have staff acces, tome access, he doesn't have dual-skills. All he can do is smash somebody's face in and that's it, he is ultra one-dimensional.

On top of that, you have to invest 10 levels worth of exp as well as a second seal to turn him into something that is not complete garbage. And let's not pretend doing that is easy.

[spoiler=But Knusperkeks we have Exponential Growth for that!]ANYONE can become god when you give them all the time in the world to get stronger.

Each time you deploy Donny as a Villager, you'll have to have at least two other units support him. One feeds him soup because he can't chew without teeth and the other one has to protect him and cheer him up shouting "GO DONNY YOU CAN DO IT!".

You do that for 10 levels and give him a second seal, at which point donny says: I Am Become Death, Shatterer of Worlds BUT WAIT! For some reason nobody knows, none of his classes beside Villager can use Lances, so he has to start at E rank. All that precious weapon experience is absolutely wasted!

You have to (exuse the pun) plow through the atrocity that is fighting with E rank weapons ONCE AGAIN.

[Carmine Sword]

But Knusperkeks, if you promote Donnel into a Fighter and give him an Arms Scroll on top of the Second Seal and nine levels worth of experience needed to get him to change classes in the first place, he can use Hand Axes to hit things at two range! Two range! That's as many as two ones!

I'm joking just so you know. Donnel is terrible due to a multitude of reasons several people have already mentioned.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Carmine Sword

[Knusperkeks]

The legendary Arms Scroll, oh yes I heard about it in myths and legends.

[Arky]

Donnel has a great back story and can father children with useful skills but mediocre stat mods.

He's also a giant fucking noob trap because he's got what has to be some of the most mediocre post game.

Virion is great, I don't get why everyone hates on the dude. Good father material, good support stats, holds a monopoly on bows for what seems to be ages and has relatively good growths. What's not to love?

Edited February 28, 2015 by Arky

[Alisa180]

How can you not understand that anyone who runs through EXPgrowth will end up as a god?

How can you assume that normal mode can be used as a legit benchmark for a characters performance?

Um, because Normal and Hard Mode are what I primarly play? I've done endgame DLC and optimal pairings runs on them. By the time I get to the DLC, I'm primarily using the children characters, same as anyone else. I've heard enough 'Luck Based Mission' horror stories about Lunatic and Lunatic+ to be almost scared off (almost. A LTC run is in the cards at some point).

But too many times I have had Donnel tank whole sides of a map for me in story mode to have him dismissed as crap like this. Can't get to the endgame without beating the story, you know.

[Arky]

Um, because Normal and Hard Mode are what I primarly play? I've done endgame DLC and optimal pairings runs on them. By the time I get to the DLC, I'm primarily using the children characters, same as anyone else. I've heard enough 'Luck Based Mission' horror stories about Lunatic and Lunatic+ to be almost scared off (almost. A LTC run is in the cards at some point).

But too many times I have had Donnel tank whole sides of a map for me in story mode to have him dismissed as crap like this. Can't get to the endgame without beating the story, you know.

With the amount of feed you give a Donnel, you could actually make a unit that isn't terrible

Working up a Donnel requires a lot of time and resources

Most L/L+ runs can't even recruit him until far later than normal/hard mode runs

He requires a second seal to even get started

He requires a HUGE amount of feed and starts off using bronze weapons immediately after reclassing

Mediocre pool of skills

He's pretty bad post game

And there you have it, multiple reasons why Donnel is a total noob trap.

Huge exp sink? Check

Huge resource sink? Check

Seriously gimped stat mods? Check

SHITTY HELMET? CHECK

Edited February 28, 2015 by Arky

[Eselred]

I find it amusing that this individual completely fails to understand that with all the time and resources that are fed to Donnel to make him "great", a lesser amount of time and resources could be used on any other unit to make them much better than Donnel ever could be.

Either they are being intentionally obtuse, or their head is just stuck way too far down in the sand.

Also, Normal mode is really easy (especially if you grind), unless you make a habit of charging off at archers and wind mages with your pegasi. Hard mode is also pretty easy until later in the game when promoted units with forges start showing up and it finally becomes decently challenging.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Eselred

[Gradivus.]

I'm pretty sure normal is so easy that you can charge through snipers with a pegasus knight, and through rexcalibur with your wyvern lords without having iote shield skill or ward staff.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Alisa180]

Mm, maybe part of it is because with Donnel there's a definite 'end-point' to the grinding. I mean, sure, you can use that effort to make other units beter...But at that point, it's just grinding, especially before you get Second Seals. With Donnel, there's a definite goal in mind, especially if you plan to burn your first Second Seal on him. It's hard to explain. It's like...You have to work to get him to the same point as the others, but once he's there, you know he's going to be a frontliner for the rest of the story. The others don't really require work to make them better, beyond the requisite grinding to keep up.

It might be more psychological 'cause Magikarp Power then logical, but the worst unit? Hardly.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Alisa180

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

But other units can do the same thing without spending those resources and there are many, many characters who make a much better case for having the Second Seal than Donnel. Basically, he's the worst because anything he can do, everyone else can do better or as well with significantly less investment. It doesn't matter that he can tank entire sides of maps because given equivalent investment (this is important because Donnel is not allowed to have favouratism if the other characters aren't), all the other characters will do it even better than him.

[XeKr]

... anything he can do, everyone else can do better or as well with significantly less investment. It doesn't matter that he can tank entire sides of maps because given equivalent investment (this is important because Donnel is not allowed to have favouratism if the other characters aren't), all the other characters will do it even better than him.

I'm well aware of the general point being made here (and I've said I agree), but I'm not actually sure statements like this are true. People always seem to underestimate how much higher Donnel's stats are, given "equal investment".

Donnel has by far the worse snowball potential and needs to get over a hump (like almost everyone), but once over, he leads statwise by a lot until the caps. (and yes there's matters of overkill, but a lot of characters don't actually manage much very near that)

[Eselred]

I remember in my first playthrough of Normal with no grinding that Snipers/Bow Knights with Silver and Wind magic could put the hurt on my pegasi. Not one-shot like they do on higher difficulties but they could be a threat.

Donnel is objectively the worst unit in the game. This is not opinion. All that time and resources you are dumping into him would make any unit much better than he could possibly be, and they would require less time and resources as well. He's worse than every 1st gen character and much worse than every child (even if you screw up pairings), so therefore, he is the worst unit in the game. This is a matter of fact. During the story you should never field Donnel unless you are just completely messing around, and postgame your time and resources are better spent grinding up...oh, I don't know, every other character in the game who will all turn out much better than Donnel ever could. Heck, even Aptitude is wasted because his caps are so laughably low.

You can keep believing that Donnel is some kind of beast and a "frontliner", and I guess on Normal he could be, but he is the worst unit in Awakening. He's a pain to recruit on higher difficulties, and he's a total liability if you even think of fielding him in a mission. At least Virion and Ricken can provide some chip damage and maybe some pair up bonuses in the chapters they are forced in. Donnel is just plain useless.

[Knusperkeks]

Mm, maybe part of it is because with Donnel there's a definite 'end-point' to the grinding. I mean, sure, you can use that effort to make other units beter...But at that point, it's just grinding, especially before you get Second Seals.

There is no distinction between grinding up Donnel or grinding up any other unit.

Just because you claim that there is some kind of magical 'end-point' at which you stop grinding doesn't mean that it actually exists, or does not exists, or only exists for Donnel but not for anybody else.

There is a definite end point to grinding for every character, whats your point?

You having or not having a second seal changes nothing about the fact that donnel needs to get to lv 10 to reclass. Grinding doesn't become any less "grindier" just because you get access to second seals. Mentioning second seals adds absolutely nothing to the nonsensical argument you're making here.

With Donnel, there's a definite goal in mind, especially if you plan to burn your first Second Seal on him. It's hard to explain. It's like...

Favoritism.

You have to work to get him to the same point as the others

Now you're admitting yourself that he is a net negative

but once he's there, you know he's going to be a frontliner for the rest of the story.

Of course I know that the unit I am endlessly feeding precious experience to will be part of some long term strategy, it's a foregone conclusion.

The others don't really require work to make them better, beyond the requisite grinding to keep up.

Delete the really from this sentence. There is no "really".

There is no "I need to catch back up with my other units because Donnel got so strong that other units are falling behind."

The others simply do not have to grind to keep up. In fact they are ahead from the get go. That's the whole point people have been trying to make since you showed up in this thread, which you continuously ignore.

You've been compared to an Ostrich, why do you think that happened? Maybe you're missing something?

Personally I believe somebody (probably yourself) put blinders on top of you.

Donnel has by far the worse snowball potential and needs to get over a hump (like almost everyone), but once over, he leads statwise by a lot until the caps. (and yes there's matters of overkill, but a lot of characters don't actually manage much very near that)

Nobody else needs to get over any "humps" to have the lead over Donnel stat wise.

So you mean to say that he sucks (at which point you feed him exp) until he doesn't suck, but don't give other units the same treatment, and draw the conclusion that he is awesome? Are you for real? What the **** am I reading?!

Lets take a look at what the oxford dictionary says under the category "favoritism":

favouritism Line breaks: fa¦vour¦it|ism

Pronunciation: /ˈfeɪv(ə)rɪtɪz(ə)m/

(US favoritism)

Definition of favouritism in English: noun

[mass noun] 1The practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another.

Do you understand now?

I'm well aware of the general point being made here (and I've said I agree), but I'm not actually sure statements like this are true. People always seem to underestimate how much higher Donnel's stats are, given "equal investment".

Show me concrete proof of that. All the tools you need to calculate that are at your disposal, on this very website.

*facepalm*