Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

The armoury Archer is easy enough to trap on Lunatic+ by just gumming up all the tiles he can move to (which are very few because of the size of the room and the chests—just make sure to have someone tanky 2 tiles away with Lissa 3 tiles away, because they're gonna get shot). Counter isn't a big deal for Donnel because his Attack is so bad, especially when unpaired. His Vulneraries should be able to heal any self-damage. The other Archers are trickier if they have Pass or Counter (this time moreso against units that will be weakening the Archer for Donnel) and he's probably gonna have to be fed the last hits. From there... his prospects of gaining more EXP on Lunatic+ are really bad. He needs Lon'qu to not be doubled, but his durability is such crap that he needs Kellam to (maybe) survive a hit (but then he gets doubled). He basically needs to be spoonfed mostly-dead enemies and hope that his awful hit doesn't bite him in the ass, make him miss and get insta-blicked on the counterattack.

[eclipse]

This is pure conjecture on my part without any proof:

I'd assume that a unit with internal of lv 1 needs "X" raw experience (without taking into account your own/enemy levels) to get to lv 10.

The same unit with a total level of ((4 cumulative level from reclassing at lv 10)+1(displayed level))=5, would get to around lv 7 or 8 after their reclass.

I'd assume a unit at lv 10 getting "X" experience would reach lv 15 or 16. Again, zero proof.

Feel free to calculate it yourself if you want. I'm interested, but not interested enough to put effort into it, surely you can empathize with that notion, eclipse.

Eat your heart out.

The experience calculations on Normal/Hard and Lunatic are different. I've only tried semi-raising him in Hard - it's doable, but tough. Normal should be easy enough, if what I've seen of the Prologue is any indication. The extra experience he gains should help him snowball, which is why I think people who put the words "Donnel", "good", and "Normal" in the same sentence probably aren't doing it to troll.

Now, tell me that raising Donnel on Lunatic+ is trivial without DLC, and that's another story. . .

[Knusperkeks]

The internal level cap for normal is 20, hard has 30 and lunatic has 50. So I have to calculate eight different scenarios?

I already told you in a roundabout way that it's a pain in the a** lol. (and I know what you mean, this is the way I choose to play along)

People apparently don't realize that lunatic exp penalty is active for all units. Conversely, the normal and hard mode experience rules are active for everyone as well.

The implications of "normal mode donnel is better than lunatic Donnel" is countered by the fact that "normal mode random shepherd is better than normal mode Donnel."

The Fir Coat on gfaqs who is making a playlog of his L+ run with Donnel as his focus after I destroyed him in an argument (calling it a debate would be an insult to all debates ever held) not unlike the one we have in this very thread.

Reading that playlog might make you feel somehing akin to amusement or entertainment, if you lower yourself to the niveau of that board.

Edit: spelling

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Can't say I'm really fond of the animosity (on either side of the fence), but there was definitely something very amusing in that thread: 237 turns for Paralogue 1. XP

[Carmine Sword]

The pinnacle of efficiency am I right?

[eclipse]

The internal level cap for normal is 20, hard has 30 and lunatic has 50. So I have to calculate eight different scenarios?

I already told you in a roundabout way that it's a pain in the a** lol. (and I know what you mean, this is the way I choose to play along)

People apparently don't realize that lunatic exp penalty is active for all units. Conversely, the normal and hard mode experience rules are active for everyone as well.

The implications of "normal mode donnel is better than lunatic Donnel" is countered by the fact that "normal mode random shepherd is better than normal mode Donnel."

The Fir Coat on gfaqs who is making a playlog of his L+ run with Donnel as his focus after I destroyed him in an argument (calling it a debate would be an insult to all debates ever held) not unlike the one we have in this very thread.

Reading that playlog might make you feel somehing akin to amusement or entertainment, if you lower yourself to the niveau of that board.

Edit: spelling

I'm not talking about capped, just long enough to reclass him to something with bases that don't suck.

My goal is to understand the logic behind why "Donnel is the best" crops up on lower difficulties - the fact that it isn't an isolated incident says something, and it's not "my opinion is superior". If your goal is to change minds, being confrontational about it isn't how to do it - understanding is the first step. If your goal is to figure out someone's motives, I can't see how your arguments help your internal picture of the situation. If your goal is to show off why you're better than someone else. . .arguing about a single character in a niche video game proves very little.

EDIT:

Can't say I'm really fond of the animosity (on either side of the fence), but there was definitely something very amusing in that thread: 237 turns for Paralogue 1. XP

. . .and I thought I was bad with 82 turns in Nah's paralogue.

Edited March 1, 2015 by eclipse

[Knusperkeks]

Can't say I'm really fond of the animosity (on either side of the fence), but there was definitely something very amusing in that thread: 237 turns for Paralogue 1. XP

You can't blame him though, he is in distraught after coming to realize that the one true god he had been worshipping this whole time is in fact a phony.

Now he ventures forth to find the truth on his own.

The pinnacle of efficiency am I right?

You have to admire the fortitude which drives him to continue this madness.

I'm not talking about capped, just long enough to reclass him to something with bases that don't suck.

My goal is to understand the logic behind why "Donnel is the best" crops up on lower difficulties - the fact that it isn't an isolated incident says something, and it's not "my opinion is superior". If your goal is to change minds, being confrontational about it isn't how to do it - understanding is the first step. If your goal is to figure out someone's motives, I can't see how your arguments help your internal picture of the situation. If your goal is to show off why you're better than someone else. . .arguing about a single character in a niche video game proves very little.

EDIT:

. . .and I thought I was bad with 82 turns in Nah's paralogue.

They see the amazing level ups Donnel has and think he's a beast. They never play higher difficulties because they're too bad for that. That's why you see those kinds of comments.

If they had the farsight and ability to clear higher difficulties, they would see how Donnel isn't such a great unit and ommit posting their opinions, since they also came to realize that they're part of the general consensus now.

I will repost this since you or somebody else might have missed it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dou7N7U7KnOyZr6YBWKmjjt89hM1cZZY22v1kjNWmaY/edit#gid=0

Edited March 12, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[eclipse]

They see the amazing level ups Donnel has and think he's a beast. They never play higher difficulties because they're too bad for that. That's why you see those kinds of comments.

If they had the farsight and ability to clear higher difficulties, they would see how Donnel isn't such a great unit and ommit posting their opinions, since they also came to realize that they're part of the general consensus now.

I will repost this since you or somebody else might have missed it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dou7N7U7KnOyZr6YBWKmjjt89hM1cZZY22v1kjNWmaY/edit#gid=0

Found your motive, which I bolded. For crying out loud, why are we judging people based on "skill" in a strategy RPG? Strategies can be copypasta'd, and stats can be rigged.

In the linked doc, Chrom's growths are based on his personal ones alone - this is most apparent in HP. Why not put out base stats for both 10/1 mercenary and fighter? I tend to go the mercenary route (if I even bother), because I happen to like Armsthrift. I also think it's a slightly more apt comparison to Chrom, as they're both sword units (though Chrom has his own unbreakable sword and WILL have the weapon rank lead).

[Knusperkeks]

My motive is not to stand above others. I'm only of average skill. My motive is to safe the people who are below average skill, who try to become better at the game, from absorbing this untrue information about Donnel, so I argue against it.

I couldn't care less whether people claim they're better than me or not, I don't mind. All I care about is people getting away with wrong claims.

I will correct Chroms growths as well as add mercenary for Donnel as you wish.

Edit: It's the same mistake I made with Donnel's growths. Irysa pointed it out in post #452. She didn't notice Chrom's growths being wrong though, same as me.

Edit2: Vaike was erroneous as well. fixed.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[eclipse]

My motive is not to stand above others. I'm only of average skill. My motive is to safe the people who are below average skill, who try to become better at the game, from absorbing this untrue information about Donnel, so I argue against it.

I couldn't care less whether people claim they're better than me or not, I don't mind. All I care about is people getting away with wrong claims.

If this is your goal, then try this:

- Don't. Judge. It's great if you need to make people dislike your opinion/dig their heels in against you.

- Ask why. Ask why again. And do it one more time. See what drives that sort of opinion.

- SCOPE. Some people legitimately don't care about harder difficulties, and trying to argue with that is a waste of your time.

- And. . .concession. Yes, Donnel is near-useless on Lunatic and above, and anyone arguing otherwise should provide their logic. On Normal with Risen skirmishes, he's functional, and if Vaike gives the other guy a gigantic middle finger (hello 50% Speed growth), Donnel is a hell of a lot more attractive.

I will correct Chroms growths as well as add mercenary for Donnel as you wish.

Edit: It's the same mistake I made with Donnel's growths. Irysa pointed it out in post #452. She didn't notice Chrom's growths being wrong though, same as me.

Edit2: Vaike was erroneous as well. fixed.

Thanks~! Didn't realize that Vaike was so. . .ugh early on. Then again, I usually don't raise him, because I get the wrong end of his Speed, and it's painful.

[Knusperkeks]

If this is your goal, then try this:

- Don't. Judge. It's great if you need to make people dislike your opinion/dig their heels in against you.

I don't judge without reason. If *you have no scientific proof for claims which can only be proven by science, get out.

"But Donny is so awesome once you invest in him." Is not a valid argument. And thats what most people's opinion arguing for Donnel's greatness comes down to.

*unspecified person

- Ask why. Ask why again. And do it one more time. See what drives that sort of opinion.

-I have been asking why they think he is so great. I have shot down every single claim so far, with pure logic.

- SCOPE. Some people legitimately don't care about harder difficulties, and trying to argue with that is a waste of your time.

I did mention that all I care about is Luna+.

- And. . .concession. Yes, Donnel is near-useless on Lunatic and above, and anyone arguing otherwise should provide their logic. On Normal with Risen skirmishes, he's functional, and if Vaike gives the other guy a gigantic middle finger (hello 50% Speed growth), Donnel is a hell of a lot more attractive. Didn't realize that Vaike was so. . .ugh early on. Then again, I usually don't raise him, because I get the wrong end of his Speed, and it's painful.

When the average character is bad, Donnel is terribad (lunatic or higher)

When the average chatracter is decent, donnel is bad (normal, hard).

I already mentioned that. You have to compare characters on even ground.

We're assuming characters have in fact average growths, thats the only way to compare them. Otherwise it would be possible for one character to be worse/better than itself because it got worse/better growths while all other criteria are equal.

Feel free to bench a unit if it's not having good enough growths, but thats something specific to your own playthrough.

Thanks~!

You're welcome~!

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[eclipse]

I don't judge without reason. If *you have no scientific proof for claims which can only be proven by science, get out.

"But Donny is so awesome once you invest in him." Is not a valid argument. And thats what most people's opinion arguing for Donnel's greatness comes down to.

*unspecified person

Don't. Judge. Full stop. You're not going to get said unspecified person to agree with you if you're hostile to them - people will remember how you made them feel a lot more rather than what you said. You'd best have a VERY good reason to get someone mad at you before employing this.

-I have been asking why they think he is so great. I have shot down every single claim so far, with pure logic.

That's nice, but then. . .

I did mention that all I care about is Luna+.

It's not logical to argue from a Lunatic+ perspective if the other person is arguing from a Normal/Hard one. They're two completely different sets of stats.

When the average character is bad, Donnel is terribad (lunatic or higher)

When the average chatracter is decent, donnel is bad (normal, hard).

I already mentioned that. You have to compare characters on even ground.

Yet the spreadsheet you linked shows that on raw stats alone, Donnel is slightly better at 10/1 mercenary than Chrom is at 10 lord, and completely outclasses a level 10 Vaike as a 10/1 fighter. Granted, 10 Vaike is painful on Lunatic (hence why I don't use him), and 10 Chrom is pretty painful unless it's Chapter 2 or something. However, it's much better once enemy stats are toned down, a la Normal/Hard - then it becomes a matter of "can I insert a level 10 Chrom here, sans Dual Strike/Charm/sword rank/wyvern-killing sword, and have him be decent?"

I'm also ignoring other important things like supports - is the type of person who uses a growth unit who's less likely to be victim of the RNG going to take multiple support levels/support bonuses into account?

We're assuming characters have in fact average growths, thats the only way to compare them. Otherwise it would be possible for one character to be worse/better than itself because it got worse/better growths while all other criteria are equal.

Feel free to bench a unit if it's not having good enough growths, but thats something specific to your own playthrough.

This is a matter of motive, and why it's important to consider the other person's viewpoint. You're arguing to ignore it outright, and that will NOT help your stated goal.

(though this is actually the fault of Vaike for having awful bases, but that's another story)

[Arky]

Glad to know I'm the only one who thinks Vaike has a huge potential to fuck me sideways due to RNG.

I despise 50% growths so much.

[Knusperkeks]

Don't. Judge. Full stop. You're not going to get said unspecified person to agree with you if you're hostile to them - people will remember how you made them feel a lot more rather than what you said. You'd best have a VERY good reason to get someone mad at you before employing this.

Already explained in post #473.

I am not trying to get somebody who gets emotional over a game character to agree with me.

My intention is to stop them from contaminating innocent people's opinion. Then again, it's their own fault for listening/agreeing to somebody's claim without sufficient proof, but even if somebody is ignorant, they deserve to learn the truth.

Make no mistake, I'm willing to change my opinion if you provide decisive evidence that Donnel is in fact not a bad unit - not in a vacuum, but in comparison to other characters in the game.

It's not logical to argue from a Lunatic+ perspective if the other person is arguing from a Normal/Hard one. They're two completely different sets of stats.

Correct. Thats why I ask everyone who posts on any difficulty other than Luna+ to mention that, so I can see it. it's in the same post you quoted.

Yet the spreadsheet you linked shows that on raw stats alone, Donnel is slightly better at 10/1 mercenary than Chrom is at 10 lord, and completely outclasses a level 10 Vaike as a 10/1 fighter. Granted, 10 Vaike is painful on Lunatic (hence why I don't use him), and 10 Chrom is pretty painful unless it's Chapter 2 or something. However, it's much better once enemy stats are toned down, a la Normal/Hard - then it becomes a matter of "can I insert a level 10 Chrom here, sans Dual Strike/Charm/sword rank/wyvern-killing sword, and have him be decent?"

I'm also ignoring other important things like supports - is the type of person who uses a growth unit who's less likely to be victim of the RNG going to take multiple support levels/support bonuses into account?

My spreadsheet also doesn't show the need for a Second Seal to get Donnel out of the sh*thole that is villager, as mentioned in post #451.

It also doesn't account for literally wasted weapon experience, as seen in post #447.

It doesn't account for Chrom's Charm, or Vaike's Zeal.

It doesn't account for Lucina's base stats much farther down the line.

Supports can be built on characters besides Donnel. While Donnel spends time building supports with <female unit>, Chrom is spending time to build supports with his future wife. It goes both ways.

I already asked people to notify others of the difficulty they're playing on, mentioned earlier in this post, as well as few pages ago.

This is a matter of motive, and why it's important to consider the other person's viewpoint. You're arguing to ignore it outright, and that will NOT help your stated goal.

(though this is actually the fault of Vaike for having awful bases, but that's another story)

I ask everyone who posts on any difficulty other than Luna+ to mention that, so I can see it. That same plea is written in the very same post you quoted yourself.

Some characters have different stats depending on which difficulty they join the shepherds, I think Cherche is one of them, as well as Henry. There are probably more. Fact is, most characters have the same base stats, regardless of game difficulty.

I was saying that I don't care about arguing for other modes, but now I'm confident that the argument to not apply favoritism but favor equality instead will result in the same conclusion that I (and many others) reached for higher difficulty levels.

Thanks to your posts, I now realize that Donny sucks on all difficulty levels.

[eclipse]

Already explained in post #473.

I am not trying to get somebody who gets emotional over a game character to agree with me.

My intention is to stop them from contaminating innocent people's opinion. Then again, it's their own fault for listening/agreeing to somebody's claim without sufficient proof, but even if somebody is ignorant, they deserve to learn the truth.

Make no mistake, I'm willing to change my opinion if you provide decisive evidence that Donnel is in fact not a bad unit - not in a vacuum, but in comparison to other characters in the game.

I don't disagree that Donnel is a bad unit - hell, read my stuff earlier in the topic. However, I think your methods are counter to your goal. I give other people enough credit to form opinions on their own, so I don't think it's necessary to "protect" them from incorrect information. One jaunt down Lunatic should solve the problem nicely.

Though now I want to retry Lunatic Casual, given Donnel his level, and then kill him, to see if he still joins.

My spreadsheet also doesn't show the need for a Second Seal to get Donnel out of the sh*thole that is villager, as mentioned in post #451.

It also doesn't account for literally wasted weapon experience, as seen in post #447.

It doesn't account for Chrom's Charm, or Vaike's Zeal.

It doesn't account for Lucina's base stats much farther down the line.

Supports can be built on characters besides Donnel. While Donnel spends time building supports with <female unit>, Chrom is spending time to build supports with his future wife. It goes both ways.

I made a mention of all of that - I think you should reread what I quoted, and explain how you derived what's in the quote box above from what I said.

Some characters have different stats depending on which difficulty they join the shepherds, I think Cherche is one of them, as well as Henry. There are probably more. Fact is, most characters have the same base stats, regardless of game difficulty.

I was saying that I don't care about arguing for other modes, but now I'm confident that the argument to not apply favoritism but favor equality instead will result in the same conclusion that I (and many others) reached for higher difficulty levels.

Thanks to your posts, I now realize that Donny sucks on all difficulty levels.

IMO, Donnel's biggest selling point is being less likely to be RNG-screwed (SUMIA AND CORDELIA I AM FUCKING LOOKING AT YOU). With the stats in Lunatic, his bases are awful to the point where it's a waste of time to get him anywhere, and unlike Nowi, he doesn't have a magical item that boosts everything by a non-trivial amount. Thus, I think he's workable in the lower difficulty modes, while someone who has terrible bases and lower growths gets screwed harder (hi Virion).

Then again, you're talking to the crazy lady who gave Frederick all the Speedwings so he'd be usable right up to Endgame on Lunatic.

Edited March 1, 2015 by eclipse

[Eselred]

All of these scenarios assume an equally leveled Donnel...how in the world is Donnel getting any EXP outside of Normal unless you are grinding EXPGrowth? Even on Hard, Donnel sucks so bad that you would have to do some extreme babying and play very inefficiently to setup kills for him. Unless you do the Archer trick in his paralogue, which is super boring and horribly inefficient play.

And if you are grinding, then any other unit will end up much better than Donnel. I mean, you can argue all these hypotheticals and math out what-if scenarios all day, but the fact remains that it takes much more work to make Donnel usable or even comparable to other units, and if you invested that work into any other unit, they would all end up being leagues better without requiring such extreme babying.

Edit: Panne is a beast once she gets going as a reclassed wyvern rider. Yes, she has a few levels as a taguel, and then a little bit of time stuck on E axes, but even in her worst state, she is still way better than 10 levels of Donnel Villager.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Eselred

[eclipse]

If you're going to come in and post, I strongly suggest READING, because I'm pretty sure I explained my stance. Unless I'm writing something that's totally weird and incomprehensible, in which case, do let me know.

[Knusperkeks]

However, I think your methods are counter to your goal. I give other people enough credit to form opinions on their own, so I don't think it's necessary to "protect" them from incorrect information. One jaunt down Lunatic should solve the problem nicely.

This is the mature thing to do, I'll oblige.

I made a mention of all of that - I think you should reread what I quoted, and explain how you derived what's in the quote box above from what I said.

I'll try my best. Here is what you wrote:

Yet the spreadsheet you linked shows that on raw stats alone, Donnel is slightly better at 10/1 mercenary than Chrom is at 10 lord, and completely outclasses a level 10 Vaike as a 10/1 fighter. Granted, 10 Vaike is painful on Lunatic (hence why I don't use him), and 10 Chrom is pretty painful unless it's Chapter 2 or something.

This was my response:

My spreadsheet also doesn't show the need for a Second Seal to get Donnel out of the sh*thole that is villager, as mentioned in post #451.

It also doesn't account for literally wasted weapon experience, as seen in post #447.

It doesn't account for Chrom's Charm, or Vaike's Zeal.

It doesn't account for Lucina's base stats much farther down the line.

You mention 10/1 Donnel as Fighter or Mercenary being slightly better than Vaike or Chrom. This made me think of what 10/1 Vaike/Chrom have that Donnel doesn't have, so I mentioned the lv 10 skills of Lord and Fighter, which are Charm and Zeal.

I mention the hidden stats that higher weapon ranks have, since you get the chance to use better weapons, as well as weapon triangle advantages being magnified.

And of course, he needs a precious second seal just to get to a level that's slightly above other characters' who don't need a second seal, with the same amount of experience. Well Vaike starts at lv 3, so it's less for him.

As for the Lucina part: I'm assuming the EXP that Donnel needs to get to lv 10 would have been distributed to Vaike or Chrom instead, which results in higher base stats for Lucina to inherit.

Does this make sense to you now?

IMO, Donnel's biggest selling point is being less likely to be RNG-screwed (SUMIA AND CORDELIA I AM FUCKING LOOKING AT YOU). With the stats in Lunatic, his bases are awful to the point where it's a waste of time to get him anywhere, and unlike Nowi, he doesn't have a magical item that boosts everything by a non-trivial amount. Thus, I think he's workable in the lower difficulty modes, while someone who has terrible bases and lower growths gets screwed harder (hi Virion).

I already mentioned that I assume equal rights for everyone. That means Donnel gets to keep his great growth rates and the others don't get screwed by RNG.

If you assume other's get RNG screwed, I will assume that Donnel gets RNG screwed as well. His growths are high, but only HP and Luck are guarenteed to increase, everything else has a chance to not increase.

You can't just assume Donnel grows at a standard rate, while everyone else just magically gets screwed over by RNG, making Donnel look better than them in comparison and use that as an argument to claim "Donnel is a more reliable unit."

Anecdotal evidence isn't something you can use here. Donnel is just as susceptible to be screwed over by RNG as everybody else.

There is no "Vaike gets bad growths and Donnel gets decent/good growths."

There is only "Vaike/Donnel get good growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get decent growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get bad growths."

Edited March 2, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[eclipse]

Quotes within quotes kinda suck, so here goes.

This was my response:

You mention 10/1 Donnel as Fighter or Mercenary being slightly better than Vaike or Chrom. This made me think of what 10/1 Vaike/Chrom have that Donnel doesn't have, so I mentioned the lv 10 skills of Lord and Fighter, which are Charm and Zeal.

I mention the hidden stats that higher weapon ranks have, since you get the chance to use better weapons, as well as weapon triangle advantages being magnified.

You missed the qualifier of "raw stats alone", which means I'm ignoring EVERYTHING else, whether it be Vaike's weapon levels, Chrom's skills, supports, etc.

And of course, he needs a precious second seal just to get to a level that's slightly above other characters' who don't need a second seal, with the same amount of experience. Well Vaike starts at lv 3, so it's less for him.

Yeah, Second Seal access is a pain, and that usually goes elsewhere. If you went with this angle, I think you'd be a bit more successful.

As for the Lucina part: I'm assuming the EXP that Donnel needs to get to lv 10 would have been distributed to Vaike or Chrom instead, which results in higher base stats for Lucina to inherit.

It can go. . .well, anywhere. Like on Stahl or something. Kill experience is a one-time thing, but both Donnel and Vaike are perfectly capable of chipping (Chrom, not so much).

Anyway, thanks for breaking that down~!

I already mentioned that I assume equal rights for everyone. That means Donnel gets to keep his great growth rates and the others don't get screwed by RNG.

This is a really cool argument as to why there should've been a fixed mode. I haven't taken a course/really studied statistical distribution (i.e. I'm probably talking out of my ass, and the same applies to any other instances when I try to dissect probability), but 50% has the highest deviance - unfortunately, that's Vaike's Speed (and several other stats on different characters). Ideally, there would be no deviation - realistically, that's not gonna happen. Personal experience shouldn't matter, but it will. If your goal is to educate, you'll have to keep this in mind.

(I will complain about the pegasus starters all day long, but that's because I'm salty - if someone else can turn them into goddesses, more power to them)

If you assume other's get RNG screwed, I will assume that Donnel gets RNG screwed as well. His growths are high, but only HP and Luck are guarenteed to increase, everything else has a chance to not increase.

I've. . .uh, gotten a screwed Donnel (Speed, to be precise). That usually forces his reclass path, more than anything. It happens, and it actually makes him worse on Hard (theory: still workable on Normal).

You can't just assume Donnel grows at a standard rate, while everyone else just magically gets screwed over by RNG, making Donnel look better than them in comparison and use that as an argument to claim "Donnel is a more reliable unit."

How in the world did you manage to come to this conclusion?

Anecdotal evidence isn't something you can use here. Donnel is just as susceptible to be screwed over by RNG as everybody else.

I don't think probability works like this. If you have a coin that's weighted to heads 70% of the time, the odds of getting five tails in a row is much lower than a coin with no bias.

There is no "Vaike gets bad growths and Donnel gets decent/good growths."

There is only "Vaike/Donnel get good growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get decent growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get bad growths."

That's how their growth rates pan out? Theoretically, it shouldn't happen - realistically, it does. Unfortunately, we're in the realistic world.

[Eselred]

If you're going to come in and post, I strongly suggest READING, because I'm pretty sure I explained my stance. Unless I'm writing something that's totally weird and incomprehensible, in which case, do let me know.

If you are referring to me (I'm not sure since you didn't quote anything but did post right after me), I have read this entire thread. I've seen lots of long math posts and hypothetical scenarios and posters arguing back and forth trying to explain how Donnel is equal to or better than X unit. However, what seems to be missing from all of these scenarios is that to get Donnel to the point where he can even be in a serious comparison to any other units, it takes a ton of time, effort and resources. Any other unit given that much attention would wind up better than Donnel without requiring nearly as much work.

I mean, why bother taking all this time to do all this math and post huge replies when it can be easily and objectively proven that given an equal playing field, Donnel is the worst unit in the game? Equal being highlighted because all of these hypotheticals require extreme babying of Donnel to even begin the comparisons to anyone else. Any unit can become uber given infinite grinding.

If someone's favorite unit is Donnel and they love using him every game, then hey, whatever makes the game fun for them. However, to even try and argue that he isn't objectively the worst unit in the game and unusable in all but the most extreme of circumstances seems silly to me.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Eselred

[eclipse]

If you are referring to me (I'm not sure since you didn't quote anything but did post right after me), I have read this entire thread. I've seen lots of long math posts and hypothetical scenarios and posters arguing back and forth trying to explain how Donnel is equal to or better than X unit. However, what seems to be missing from all of these scenarios is that to get Donnel to the point where he can even be in a serious comparison to any other units, it takes a ton of time, effort and resources. Any other unit given that much attention would wind up better than Donnel without requiring nearly as much work.

I mean, why bother taking all this time to do all this math and post huge replies when it can be easily and objectively proven that given an equal playing field, Donnel is the worst unit in the game? Equal being highlighted because all of these hypotheticals require extreme babying of Donnel to even begin the comparisons to anyone else. Any unit can become uber given infinite grinding.

If someone's favorite unit is Donnel and they love using him every game, then hey, whatever makes the game fun for them. However, to even try and argue that he isn't objectively the worst unit in the game and unusable in all but the most extreme of circumstances seems silly to me.

I can see three possibilities for this.

1. Your mind is made up, and you're literally not going to budge (that's closer to "preaching" than "discussing").

2. Your idea of discussion is hypotheticals (I was on someone else's cases for this in another thread).

3. You didn't read what I said carefully.

The entire point of this isn't to disprove that Donnel is terrible (like, reread my early stuff - now do it again) - it's to show why those who are in the lower difficulties will think that he's not terrible. If someone's on Normal/Hard, do you think they care about things like efficiency/turn counts?

[Vascela]

If you disregard everything that we can use to quantify "success" dealing with this game, then it's a clear cut that nothing matters.

The funny thing is, when you get really good at FE, you can pretty much get away with anything also as long as you know what you're doing. Everything in the middle is discussed for those with at least some type of category/ideals to play the game. Things like LTC (Chiki), Slower but more reliable (Int), or RTA (Dew) are 3 easily identifiable ways to quantify "success," but if you disregard all of that... then what's the point?

I have friends that point out how great Don is at normal and wreck face in a solo, but it doesn't hold any value except to them. The moment they try to bring it to the community is when you have common comparatives (such as the 3 I listed earlier).

[eclipse]

If you disregard everything that we can use to quantify "success" dealing with this game, then it's a clear cut that nothing matters.

Exactly. However, there's a giant mess of a thread that shows there's a bunch of emotions tied into that which doesn't matter (because let's face it, there's a lot of ways to get through Fire Emblem, and why should it matter how it's done?). Doesn't that say something?

[Vascela]

Exactly. However, there's a giant mess of a thread that shows there's a bunch of emotions tied into that which doesn't matter (because let's face it, there's a lot of ways to get through Fire Emblem, and why should it matter how it's done?). Doesn't that say something?

It says that we are trying to ignore an objective standard through subjective means. 8 Mov characters, Dark Magic Users, etc., save more turns than certain counterparts. Donnel costs more turns that he saves (in the grand scheme of things). In light of LTC specifically, he doesn't perform well.

Looking at durability, he has it worse than Sumia. I don't think there's a single enemy in the game on L/L+ that does not ORKO (if they don't OHKO him). So he's not doing well regarding difficulty either.

Look how FE7's HHM S rank tier list was shaped. It wasn't done by Eliwood Normal Mode 1 Star tactics players. It's done by S rank player standards.

Look at SSB tiers. It wasn't done by the group of friends who play once a week. It's done by the top leading competitors with tourney results.

Can ENM players use whoever they want and get away with it? Can I get away with using Pichu in melee against my friends? Sure. But I'm not holding that to a community standard regarding worth.

edit: but that being said, there is a lot more emotion in this thread than there probably was expected

Edited March 2, 2015 by Vascela

[Knusperkeks]

You missed the qualifier of "raw stats alone", which means I'm ignoring EVERYTHING else, whether it be Vaike's weapon levels, Chrom's skills, supports, etc.

Very well. Let's factorise everything I said unnecessarily and round it down to:

"Donnel has slightly better stats as 10/1 Fighter compared to Vaike, and 10/1 Mercenary to Chrom."

This is a nice little statement I can wholeheartedly agree with.

I should have noticed the ignore in the statement, it was the most important word, sorry.

Yeah, Second Seal access is a pain, and that usually goes elsewhere. If you went with this angle, I think you'd be a bit more successful.

I mention the second seal for the third time now, therefor that second part of the sentence should be rewritten to "You went this angle, I think you're a bit more successful." (whatever that means. Probably in conveying my message? I dunno exactly)

I did underline and bold the parts where "fighter donnel", "fighter vaike" and "lord chrom", "mercenary donnel" are mentioned. I thought that was enough hint towards the second seal, I honestly did.

It can go. . .well, anywhere. Like on Stahl or something. Kill experience is a one-time thing, but both Donnel and Vaike are perfectly capable of chipping (Chrom, not so much).

I think it's ridiculous how you claim that Donnel has the same ability to chip as Vaike, while Chrom can't do it. Donnel as 10/1 Mercenary has 2.35 average strength more than Chrom and uses a Bronze Axe, while Chrom has Falchion, which is really good in chapter 5, which happens almost immediately after Donnel's recruitment. Chapter 5 features Wyvern Riders with Axes, the perfect victims for a 10/1 Chrom.

Anyway, thanks for breaking that down~!

I'm doing my best, happy it makes more sense now, really I am happy about that. :)

This is a really cool argument as to why there should've been a fixed mode. I haven't taken a course/really studied statistical distribution (i.e. I'm probably talking out of my ass, and the same applies to any other instances when I try to dissect probability), but 50% has the highest deviance - unfortunately, that's Vaike's Speed (and several other stats on different characters). Ideally, there would be no deviation - realistically, that's not gonna happen. Personal experience shouldn't matter, but it will. If your goal is to educate, you'll have to keep this in mind.

(I will complain about the pegasus starters all day long, but that's because I'm salty - if someone else can turn them into goddesses, more power to them)

I can understand where you're coming from, but unless you can exactly pinpoint how the algorithm determining character growths isn't working as intended (which is impossible without knowing information which should only be available to the game's developers), I'm forced to dismiss this statement as nonrepresentational, but you accept that yourself already so I won't ride on it any longer.

No matter how much you believe rng screws you, there is always some person who gets lucky against impossible odds.

There was a certain lunatic run where many units got deployed and many of them had good growths without exception, in which ownagepuffs commented something along the lines of "most rng blessed run ever?". I can't remember where, and can't find it after looking for it a tiny bit, but it happens.

How in the world did you manage to come to this conclusion?

You were praising Donnel for his reliability while other's got shafted. It forced me to the conclusion to which I came.

I don't think probability works like this. If you have a coin that's weighted to heads 70% of the time, the odds of getting five tails in a row is much lower than a coin with no bias.

Thats how it works. I can asure you that Donnel will have times when he is incredibly unlucky (from a statistical standpoint), same as everyone else.

Even if said coin is weighted to heads 99.99% of the time, some unlucky sob will eventually end up getting five tails back to back.

When I put out all the statements of "X and Donnel get a, b or c growths" this also means that there is no

"Donnel got screwed a little but X got screwed more because s/he is farther away from 100% growth."

That's how their growth rates pan out? Theoretically, it shouldn't happen - realistically, it does. Unfortunately, we're in the realistic world.

We must assume the character growths are as they are, the same way as scientists have to assume that trees do not in fact talk while nobody is listening and stop talking once somebody could potentially hear them. This can get really absurd, so let's stop here.