HM Gonzales

[SSJDennis]

Uhm, actually never tried this but... I know that Gonzales has the SAME base stats in both scenarios. BUT, he does start out at a lower level at 10A, while he will be higher at 10B (or the other way around XD ).

Thing is, he DOES receive HM bonus stats. Would he gain MORE if he was a level 12 Bandit, above beeing a level 5 one? Or would he still have the same stats?

[Caster]

He always has the same stats whichever route you take, even on hard mode.

[Carmine Sword]

He has the same stats regardless of which route you take. If you actually want to use Gonzales, then Echidna Route is preferable, as he has the same stats as on Bartre Route, but with more room to grow and a higher axe rank at base iirc. I suppose Bartre Route Gonzales can be insta-promoted though.

[Shadow Mir]

He has the same stats regardless of which route you take. If you actually want to use Gonzales, then Echidna Route is preferable, as he has the same stats as on Bartre Route, but with more room to grow and a higher axe rank at base iirc. I suppose Bartre Route Gonzales can be insta-promoted though.

This is just me, but I'd take Echidna route regardless because from what I heard, Barftre route's more of a pain in the neck.

[Magical Glace]

Why would you even want to use him, HM or NM? He's axelocked with awful skill in a game where hitrates suck. It doesn't really matter which route, he's pretty worthless...

But yeah, always same stats. Iirc, this is due to the way level is coded in FE6. It's separate from stats, and as a result of that even if you changed his level... his stats would not change. I guess this could be averted by coding two "Gonzaleses" but I guesss the devs were lazy.

Or something like that.

[Vorena]

Why would you even want to use him, HM or NM? He's axelocked with awful skill in a game where hitrates suck. It doesn't really matter which route, he's pretty worthless...

But yeah, always same stats. Iirc, this is due to the way level is coded in FE6. It's separate from stats, and as a result of that even if you changed his level... his stats would not change. I guess this could be averted by coding two "Gonzaleses" but I guesss the devs were lazy.

Or something like that.

The axe lock comment is interesting. In many FE games, I believe Lance > Axe > Sword > Bow is preferred order of units with respect to being locked to a single weapon.

With how the true hit works on accuracy you really do not need as much as you might think you need. 78% display hit for 90% true hit. Promotion and S rank axes gives gonzales a free +15 display hit rate. Assuming a 15/1 Gonzales on hard mode you get an average of 14 skill + 10 lck. Given what I said before on a killer axe or iron axe Gonzales is looking at 113% displayed hit rate. You reach 99% true hit at 92% display hit rate. To hit a nice tolerable 90% true hit your opponents can have up to 35 evasion. Which if you look over the HM stats thread there are very few enemies late game that tend to have anything over 35 evasion apart from enemies you would not want him fighting anyway (sword users).

Gonzales gets enough speed and strength to kill a great deal of things even with an iron axe. At 15/1 hard mode, Gonzales has 30 MT with an Iron Axe. He can 3HKO those pesky high level wyvern riders with physical effort. That is not something many characters can easily do unless you are using bows or magic. He has a nice benefit as well as pretty much being the only good user or axes apart from Percy. Which means he pretty much gets sole use of many of the axes you get to use. Axes are the cheapest weapon in the game and you might more easily afford to spam killer axes on him. 65 free critical from berserker class, killer axe, and S rank axes is pretty good. When doubling enemies and seeing 50%+ critical rate his damage output on average is 500% the damage he does form a single attack.

Another bonus in his favor is being able to bring another Legendary Weapon user to the battle. He has 16 constitution after promotion which only -2 weighs him down when using Armads. With his high strength and effective damage he can OHKO late game wyvern lords.

Anyway, I think you get the point already. His accuracy issues can be worked around by having him target the right groups of enemies which are not a narrow selection. With the choice of say killer axe/iron axe or swordreaver his accuracy is not much of an issue. His selling point is pretty much sole user of axes (you get free axes anyway throughout the game) and being able to kill things many users cannot do without effective bonus.

The 1-2 range utility is lacking due to how terrible hand axes are though. The damage is nice... when you can hit. This is a pretty large blow to the character. Otherwise, Gonzales is one of the few units I would bother training at all in a game filled with so many characters which are simply terrible.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Vorena

[dondon151]

FE6 doesn't have the S rank bonus

casual players love using gonzalez because there's the whole overkill damage aspect of it, plus he's pretty bulky too.

[Vorena]

omg How many times am I going to mix up all of these FE game mechanics.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Vorena

[Carmine Sword]

He's too bulky. With that 16 Con, I don't think there's a single promoted unit that can carry him.

[Vorena]

There are a couple.

Dayan and Shin. Depending upon promotion or not some more can carry unpromoted Gonzales.

[Magical Glace]

snip

Not in FE6. Alongside FE4, it's usually agreed FE6 is the worst game to be axelocked in.

65% hit on an iron axe is the best non-Armads axe hit in the game.

Enemies don't suck so much as in 7/8, meaning that natural hit is migitated.

His skill is terrible. Even if he has a lot of Str, it's no good if he has little chance of hitting.

Then you have to gamble to get him even to 15/1 like you said. His horrid base Skl coupled with low axe accuracy hurts him a lot.

And what is the guarantee that I would find the proper "groups" around his jointime in Enchidna route? Iirc, it's mainly axes... meaning it's Myrmidon heaven like the rest of the game, thanks to their +30 crit after promoting and GOOD hit!

If you want an Armads user in the endgame, Enchidna is a better choice. You don't gamble on her. Even then, you get The Binding Blade, Durandal Rutger, Maltet Miledy or Shanna, Forblaze Lugh/Lilina, Murgleis Shin, and Apocalypse Raigh or Niime that it really doesn't matter with so many better options.

[Topaz Light]

With how the true hit works on accuracy you really do not need as much as you might think you need. 78% display hit for 90% true hit.

Except that FE6 uses only a single RN to roll for hits, misses and critical hits, so "true hit" isn't actually different from the displayed number in that game. It wasn't until FE7 that the double RN system started being used.

[Magical Glace]

Except that FE6 uses only a single RN to roll for hits, misses and critical hits, so "true hit" isn't actually different from the displayed number in that game. It wasn't until FE7 that the double RN system started being used.

FE6 uses dual RNG. It was the first game to do so. Hit rates are simply lower than in FE7 onward.

[Topaz Light]

FE6 uses dual RNG. It was the first game to do so. Hit rates are simply lower than in FE7 onward.

Wait, really? I thought it didn't.

For all this time, I was under the impression that it was the last game to use single RN.

[Vorena]

things to be reply too

I realize that 65% is the best common axe you will get, but there is also not much reason to use the other axes apart from a few anyway. Gonzales 2HKOs the fighters on his join chapter anyway. He faces around ~80% true hit and is not really going to die from missing a hit anyway. I would not necessarily call 80% true hit a terrible thing. This is again assuming hard mode. Shamans and archers are other things he can try fighting too, but they face less accuracy too. This drops down to about 70% true hit with an iron axe which all enemies again are 2HKO'd (why bother with any other axe?). Enemies on his join chapter are at level 12-13 typically and him being at level 5 quickly allows him to gain experience. He is looking at about ~50 experience per KO and will continue this trend until he hits the same level as them where it should level out to about 30 experience per KO. His accuracy will not continue to increase any great strides until promotion. But, neither do things he might try attacking in trying to level up still in say the next 3-4 chapters. His incubation period is pretty low compared to some characters in the FE series. Faster with any promoted KOs you can give him as well.

By chapter 13, I believe from memory at a reasonable pace (not LTC), but Gonzales can be trained enough to be seeing promotion now (15/1) and this is the chapter where the lances start showing up again. From there on out there will be things for gonzales to take out along with access to killer axes more regularly. Which again if you are selective of your enemies as you might be about how you place certain units to not die Gonzales can be facing very accurate and reliable hit rates after promotion.

The accuracy at one range is really not what bothers me. It is mainly the fact that he has unreliable 1-2 range with the hand axe except against lance users with javelins or enemies which are weighted down a bit. I am not trying to make him out to be the best unit in the game, but originally it was stated "For what reasons to use this character?" Most of those reasons I gave earlier. The main one being getting an extra user which can help reliably take down hard to kill enemies such as mamkutes, wyverns, knights, paladins, etc. in a single round of combat without using special weapons.

Armads on Gonzales is still pretty unique that no other character can really match even though it is not much. I did make a mistake earlier. I thought Armads had the 18 weight. No, its 5 points lighter in FE6. Anyway, with Gonzale's strength and critical rate he can pretty much get more uses out of armads than other characters. 1HKO'ing wyvern lords with it compared to 2HKO saves you a usage of the move. Or randomly getting a critical hit as well saves on axe uses. There is durability as well when it comes to gonzales with armads you cannot get out of Echidna. An extra 3 defence and 20 hp is quite a bit of difference in bulk. I am not sure why you keep bringing up the accuracy bit for end game. Against mamkutes with 28 evade and guessing you have at least a 15/5 gonzales that late in the game you are looking at a ~90% true hit with Armads. This is still reliable. Wyvern Lords ~40 evasion which after lance disadvantage brings it back down to nearly the same as the mamkutes. You are right in the fact that you gamble over the course of the entire games there will be some misses, but over the course of the game Gonzales is still looking at reliable hit rates anywhere from 80% true hit to 100% provided you are using Gonzales for his intended purpose.

If your reasons for playing FE6 are of a more optimized nature, then I would agree Gonzales shouldn't be used. There are better options than Gonzales, but I might say almost as many bad options as well. In a draft if you needed a late game user would you rather pick wendy, wade, lott, juno, barth, geese, etc. as your pick or perhaps gonzales first? In a tier of things he seems very middling.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Vorena

[Shadow Mir]

wall of text

Why are we assuming that Gonzales gets a hero crest over Rutger or Dieck? I shouldn't need to tell you that's a flat out losing trade. What the hell do you mean by "incubation period"?? Also, why would I want Gonzales facing wyverns when I have more reliable answers to them called archers and mages? Admittedly, they can only do their thing on player phase, but still...

[General Horace]

you get two hero crests by chapter 10/11, it's not totally unreasonable for Gonzales to take one.

I find he's a unit that's gone from incredibly overrated to incredibly underrated as time as progressed. There aren't many units that you can stick on a forest (or even a mountain in gonzo's case) lategame and have him clean up an entire hoard of wyvern riders without much issue. Bow users can kill one per player phase, and mages are likely to have issues killing them (just because FE6 mages are underwhelming) and face very real chances of death. His hit issues are totally overblown, unless he's fighting bosses or something (he's not, leave it to someone who's good at that, like Rutger)

Dieck is another candidate for Armads as well, he might start at E Axes, but he'll likely promote pretty early and has loads of time to raise his axe rank.

[Vorena]

I am not sure ". . .but still..." is suppose to imply. It seems you already answered your own question lol Gonzales can face several wyverns on enemy phase with his durability while a mage and archer by itself cannot due to durability issues unless you factor in possible evasion, but that will be character dependent. I would not fancy Lilina dodging too many things with her low speed. The luck helps, but bow lock might be almost as bad as axe lock since bow lock restricts you to predominately player phase. Not sure bows are anymore or less reliable to legendary weapons.

There are several hero crests in the game. I should assume that Rutger and Dieck will be the only characters we might consider getting them first. Well, draft is one reason for potentially giving it to Gonzales instead for the first two. Otherwise, you get a third one by the time chapter 16 rolls around. This is a bit late to still be using him unpromoted. Less movement. However, more units can transport him around at 15 con. He could keep getting experience and not say a 15/1 promotion thing, but rather a 18/1 or maybe 20/1. Another reason to use Gonzales as well is that fact that he can help in experience runs. He is a decent combat unit that comes at a low level. Very easily gets you lots of experience towards rank for his join level.

By incubation period I meant a period where his combat is lacking. A situation where he will need help getting KOs before being self sufficient on his own.

[dondon151]

I find he's a unit that's gone from incredibly overrated to incredibly underrated as time as progressed.

i don't think gonzalez is incredibly underrated, but i do tire of hearing "omg accuracy problems" being repeatedly shouted even though gonzalez beats faces in in casual play.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

On my hard mode run I didn't use any prefering axe users. The only axe users I had, were Alan and Lance as paladins.

Gonzales has great bases for his low level, but his biggest problem is the generic ridiculous low accuracy of axes. He's victim as all other axe user of this stupid game mechanic.

And his low skill isn't very helpful for him as well. He probably will almost never hit with the hand axe.

Swords still have a better hitrate than axes despite weapon triangle disadvantage.

Edited January 14, 2015 by The Taninator

[Shadow Mir]

I am not sure ". . .but still..." is suppose to imply. It seems you already answered your own question lol Gonzales can face several wyverns on enemy phase with his durability while a mage and archer by itself cannot due to durability issues unless you factor in possible evasion, but that will be character dependent. I would not fancy Lilina dodging too many things with her low speed. The luck helps, but bow lock might be almost as bad as axe lock since bow lock restricts you to predominately player phase. Not sure bows are anymore or less reliable to legendary weapons.

There are several hero crests in the game. I should assume that Rutger and Dieck will be the only characters we might consider getting them first. Well, draft is one reason for potentially giving it to Gonzales instead for the first two. Otherwise, you get a third one by the time chapter 16 rolls around. This is a bit late to still be using him unpromoted. Less movement. However, more units can transport him around at 15 con. He could keep getting experience and not say a 15/1 promotion thing, but rather a 18/1 or maybe 20/1. Another reason to use Gonzales as well is that fact that he can help in experience runs. He is a decent combat unit that comes at a low level. Very easily gets you lots of experience towards rank for his join level.

By incubation period I meant a period where his combat is lacking. A situation where he will need help getting KOs before being self sufficient on his own.

Also, as to that part about Gonzales having the strength to OHKO Wyvern Lords with Armads, I'll give you that... along with the caveat that Wyvern Lords tend to be in a group with Wyvern Riders, which means in practice, unless I'm having him attack them specifically on player phase, I'm wasting 3 uses of a legendary weapon on scrub units that he coulda KOed normally.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[General Horace]

i don't think gonzalez is incredibly underrated, but i do tire of hearing "omg accuracy problems" being repeatedly shouted even though gonzalez beats faces in in casual play.

yeah incredibly underrated was a poor choice of words, I agree with what you say here.

also gonzales probably doesn't need Armads to kill wyvern lords, just give him a killer axe and let him go ham

[Carmine Sword]

Someone brought up the point of Gonzales being a better draft pick than units like Ward and Lot. Personally, I would think of Ward and Lot as better picks over Gonzales, since if I'm going to be stuck with an axe wielding, low accuracy infantry unit, then the ones that comes earlier and gets Bows on promotion seem like a better choice to me.

[dondon151]

gaining E bows on promo might as well be gaining nothing at all

i mean i'm not sure if i'd rather gain E swords or E bows, they're both terrible.

[momogeek2141]

E bows is worse since you have no enemy phase. As for the Warriors: Ward has garbage 14 speed (at 20/20 no less) and Lot gets only 2 more skl than gonzo on average. Gonzo also has almost Zeiss tier Str and a good speed growth. And who needs Armads for wyverns with his giant muscles?