Back to the Roots

[Soen]

Regardless of that what I'm talking about is in terms of pure fun and how hard a game is. being able to make my knight into a mage doesn't make the game not fun. The games insanely fun and still was challenging to me. Maybe it's because I don't soft reset RNG, spend all my days in the forums looking at how to optimize characters but none of my circle of friends ever had an easy time with awakening. I know me and my brother Marathoned the game when it released and we were losing units and soft resetting a lot. Later when I got more people to buy it or play my copy everyone seemed to have a pretty great time. Obviously it's not has hard as FE7 or really any FE without real grinding as a possibility since grinding existed. However, coming as a fan of regular JRPGs and Disgaea I enjoy my self a good grind. FE7 was my first SRPG but I think so long as normal stays at the point where I need to make good choices (and for me it was at that point) I don't think the game is too easy.

About that, the game becomes easy when you decide to make it easy. Grinding isn't a bad thing, simply you mustn't abuse it, unless you want the difficulty to drop. It is necessary to gring in some points on the higher difficulties(I think Lunatic+ is nearly impossible without grinding), but again, that could be avoidable if higher difficulties didn't mean enemy units with crazy stats and bullshit abilities, but better placement of the units, wider range of weapons(like Beastkillers in early chapters which hinder your Jeigan/Oifey and you have to use other units). One other thing I'd put in higher difficulties is some gaiden chapter not accessible when you're playing Normal and Hard, for example. Something like 19xx in FE7, a chapter which is not necessary to beat nor gives you any unit, but just adds new elements to the plot, maybe hidden ones.

[powerserg]

About that, the game becomes easy when you decide to make it easy. Grinding isn't a bad thing, simply you mustn't abuse it, unless you want the difficulty to drop. It is necessary to gring in some points on the higher difficulties(I think Lunatic+ is nearly impossible without grinding), but again, that could be avoidable if higher difficulties didn't mean enemy units with crazy stats and bullshit abilities, but better placement of the units, wider range of weapons(like Beastkillers in early chapters which hinder your Jeigan/Oifey and you have to use other units). One other thing I'd put in higher difficulties is some gaiden chapter not accessible when you're playing Normal and Hard, for example. Something like 19xx in FE7, a chapter which is not necessary to beat nor gives you any unit, but just adds new elements to the plot, maybe hidden ones.

That's an interesting idea, I honestly never play above hard and rarely play hard in Fire Emblem. I play a lot of Rpgs and to do that I can't spend insane amount of time on one title. So for me that would suck because I don't really want to play that mode but I do want to see everything that the story as to offer.

I do think the better way to make it harder is to give foes better weapons, place them strong and all that.

I didn't personally grind much in awakening but I grinded a little.

[geozeldadude]

tl;dr some veteran fans feel isolated by the new games since the series is becoming more casual, more modern, and is appealing to a larger audience

it sucks but I have a feeling this game isn't going to meet the (IMO crazy high) expectations of certain fans and you'll all be stuck playing older FEs and fan-games for ages to come unless you actually accept and like the new ones to continue being a fan

this happens to quite a few series, it changes, stops being as niche, doesn't keep doing the same thing/doesn't stick to what made people like the series in the first place, and people get left behind :(

I can sympathize with it but eventually people are going to have to accept that FE has changed and just because they don't like it it doesn't make it a bad game or the worst FE games, it's just not for them

for me, at least, it's not about the series becoming "more casual", etc. but that the last entry allowed grinding, which was fundamentally different from the rest of the series. but i think people probably felt that way about FE8 since that also had grinding, and that didn't turn out to be a "no looking back" turning point for the series. so i'm just hoping that FE14 will bring things back to one of the things that made the series great for me (namely, ranked runs), the way FE9 did.

[ClassyWolf]

tl;dr some veteran fans feel isolated by the new games since the series is becoming more casual, more modern, and is appealing to a larger audience

it sucks but I have a feeling this game isn't going to meet the (IMO crazy high) expectations of certain fans and you'll all be stuck playing older FEs and fan-games for ages to come unless you actually accept and like the new ones to continue being a fan

this happens to quite a few series, it changes, stops being as niche, doesn't keep doing the same thing/doesn't stick to what made people like the series in the first place, and people get left behind :(

I can sympathize with it but eventually people are going to have to accept that FE has changed and just because they don't like it it doesn't make it a bad game or the worst FE games, it's just not for them

Change doesn't make things better or worse by default, just one thing: different, not all change is for the better but neither for the worse. And not everything that is popular is good "argumentum ad populum",

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

That being said, I can't say that I'll love or hate the game, cause I now virtually nothing about it, yeah I dislike certain designs they have shown, but because it's supposedly not a sequel to a previous game, it at least won't irritate me the same way awakening did (retconing lore from the games it's supposed to be a sequel to).

While "by the people who made awakening", isn't a good thing for me (underlined for personal opinion), since I didn't really like awakening, but I will give them the benefit of doubt, after all, I don't go into a game wanting to hate it.

[powerserg]

for me, at least, it's not about the series becoming "more casual", etc. but that the last entry allowed grinding, which was fundamentally different from the rest of the series. but i think people probably felt that way about FE8 since that also had grinding, and that didn't turn out to be a "no looking back" turning point for the series. so i'm just hoping that FE14 will bring things back to one of the things that made the series great for me (namely, ranked runs), the way FE9 did.

I think we just need a "Hardcore" mode to remove grinding from the game, bring in a laser focus for fans who want to try and do that. It's really the best way to keep old fans and new fans happy. I imagine programming it can't be that hard given that it's just turning off stuff, it's literally just negating lines of code and testing that the game is beatable in that fashion.

[Soen]

I can sympathize with it but eventually people are going to have to accept that FE has changed and just because they don't like it it doesn't make it a bad game or the worst FE games, it's just not for them

You are absolutely right about this. Awakening had its flaws, but is was really a great game. One thing I wonder about FE14 is the sense of "new" the trailer gave me. When IS was in the process of making FE13, they though of it as the possible last of the series. In the game there are a LOT of things taken from the old ones. For FEif, I think the guys at IS think about the series as safe, and they might want to press forward, to create something new. That is proved by the facts that there are two new FE games announced, and one of them is a crossover. The trailer also shows what seems to be a new world, with new characthers and new possibilites. Of course the main core of the game is going to be the same, we already saw that Pair Up is a thing. What I'd want from this game is that they take elements which made the series what it is and use them to make this game the best they have released thus far. I only hope they won't use the elements that I didn't like, but if they do, so be it.

That's an interesting idea, I honestly never play above hard and rarely play hard in Fire Emblem. I play a lot of Rpgs and to do that I can't spend insane amount of time on one title. So for me that would suck because I don't really want to play that mode but I do want to see everything that the story as to offer.

I do think the better way to make it harder is to give foes better weapons, place them strong and all that.

I didn't personally grind much in awakening but I grinded a little.

Level design is one of the most complex things to plan when building a game, expecially for a SRPG. In a game like FE I'd like to accomplish the desire of an higher challenge of some of the players with a difficulty in which if you make an error, it is only your fault and yours only for making it. That can be done in multiple ways, but certainly throwing suicidal enemy with OP abilities at you isn't the way to do it.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Soen

[geozeldadude]

You are absolutely right about this. Awakening had its flaws, but is was really a great game. One thing I wonder about FE14 is the sense of "new" the trailer gave me. When IS was in the process of making FE13, they though of it as the possible last of the series. In the game there are a LOT of things taken from the old ones. For FEif, I think the guys at IS think about the series as safe, and they might want to press forward, to create something new. That is proved by the facts that there are two new FE games announced, and one of them is a crossover. The trailer also shows what seems to be a new world, with new characthers and new possibilites. Of course the main core of the game is going to be the same, we already saw that Pair Up is a thing. What I'd want from this game is that they take elements which made the game what it is and use them to make this game the best they have released thus far. I only hope they won't use the elements that I didn't like, but if they do, so be it.

this is a good point. i'd forgotten that FE13 was intended to be sort of a "greatest hits" where they took all the best bits from the series up to this point and threw them together. this gives me more hope that this one will be "a new chapter", and the trailer does seem to indicate that some fundamentals (european medieval setting) are going to be reworked.

[Nackar]

I am concerned where the Fire Emblem series is going now. I feel that the art style is creeping down the "overly-anime" lane. I love the older Fire Emblem games, as well as the spin-off games like Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga, because their art style was much more mature. Aside from the technicolor hair and large eyes, characters, for the most part, dressed and acted like individuals from a medieval era. I was turned off by Awakening's art because the artist over-expressed the high-fantasy element that is present in all Fire Emblem games. For that reason, we ended up having knights and cavaliers with silly-looking armor in Awakening.

Juxtapose Oswin, from FE7, with Kellam from Awakening. Which one looks more dignified? Yusuke Kosaki is a talented artist, but his designs are bordering Tetsuya Nomura's level of impracticality and silliness.

Yes, this was probably my main qualm with Awakening. I do not care for an overly anime-style design, especially since it unfortunately so often comes paired with clichéd characters (I'm not saying there haven't been clichés or stereotyped characters in previous Fire Emblems, but for some reason it seemed worse to me in Awakening). I was really disappointed for a brief second during the trailer when they transitioned from the battle scene to the dancing girl before the hype took over again.

Of course, it won't ruin the game for me. I enjoyed Awakening A LOT - but I do find myself caring less for the world and its characters than I did for the older FEs.

[XeKr]

Sorry for the late response.just let me rant okay…

I don't think you can necessarily say that lunatic/+ was designed for no grind runs. If you don't grind, certain parts often boil down to one specific exploit. I don't remember fe13s as well, but look at fe12. In the prologue vs Jeigan, you have to wait next to him until he attacks you, then keep using vulneraries. If you attack him on your phase, you die on the enemy phase because Jeigan's hit rate is too high to dodge. In fe5 stats don't mean much, especially in late game when stats are near caps for players/ enemies alike. I've heard people say that, without the surprise factor, fe5 loses it's difficulty. However, this is not true. You still have to figure out how to quickly get across tough terrain to save allies placed in dangerous spots, deal with enemy sleep/berserk/silence staves, etc. even if you KNOW that these hazards are there, the strategies to deal with them are still fairly complex and definitely don't boil down to "mow down the enemy".

I say/speculate it was designed for no grind runs because it can be played similarly as previous FE games with no grinding. In addition, a few conscious design decisions such as skirmishes being very hard and scaling with battle number, spotpass giving no exp, encourage a no, or minimal grinding approach. While you could take the cynical route here and suggest that’s to sell DLC, I disagree, as the no grinding Lunatic(+) experience can be fairly fun and certainly feels balanced to me.

Also your idea of an exploit sounds suspiciously like my idea of (very simple) tactics. Use resources given to you, make the appropriate player phase decisions. Win chapter.

And I’m just expressing my opinion, having beaten all the modes in question a few times, that FE5 was “hard” in a blind run (in a frustrating sense), but didn’t require that much additional thinking after understanding the gimmicks (not in a purely negative sense), especially compared to FE12/13 Lunatic(‘/+) modes. Fine and fair enough if you disagree, if you’ve done the same. However, characterizing FE13 play as purely "mow down the enemy" remains disingenuous, given how generally commonplace it is in FE.

Fe13 lunatic, from what I remember, just felt like a game of cat and mouse where you run around the map being chased by the enemy as you put yourself just in range of one enemy and barely survive to slowly pick them off. I'll admit that revering fe5 as a god among fire emblem is excessive, but it had a lot of examples of good map design. Fe7 is great with difficulty increases, like how the desert map was increased by adding fog of war. The game increased difficulty by adding a new strategic element rather than by just buffing enemy stats. Fe13 almost completely did away with map hazards like terrain bonus.

Fort/forest/Mountain bonuses are among the most important things to use in FE13 to reliably survive (combined with recognizing how the weapon triangle, Dual Bonuses, etc work in these newer games, and the plethora of axes earlygame). Certain classes that traverse water or other normally unpassable terrain, plus some Pair Up/Switch/Transfer mobility stuff, is important for some clever positionings and safe approaches to chapters. An actual analysis of FE13 maps reveals amazingly…chokepoints in numerous chapters, despite common complaints. Also have standard FE things like desert, lava.

I won’t talk too much about fog of war, but again, I suppose I personally dislike (single player strategy) games hiding information from the player, especially as units are generally not considered expendable in FE games. It’s another thing that somewhat loses its challenge after knowing where enemies are located, or what the gimmick/surprise is. Also you picked the chapter where an NPC can solo like half the map (or in some rare cases, dies to RNG outside your control). <_<

It's true that in many fe games, there are really good units including the avatar in fe12. However, none of these units are quite so insane as to be able to combine the best of each class into one super unit. The avatar in fe12 can use all classes, but can't take the best skills of all of them and go nuts like robin in fe13. That being said, I don't like the reclass system in general and still think fe12 avatar is too broken. However, most great units are limited to the strengths/weaknesses of their class like Hector having low resistance. The only exception I can think of is fe9 Ike who is fast, strong, can tank both magic and physical attacks, and can outright solo the game.

This is kinda a strange thing because Robin is often claimed as unbalancing but she never seems to be at the top of the best character (gameplay) lists in the series. >_>

People will like to mention that characters like Seth can solo the hardest mode of their game while carrying the lord. Titania can nearly do the same (or better yet, do that, and use the totally balanced bexp mechanic to train another unit with no risk or effort). Games like FE10 periodically gifts you units (sometimes much) stronger than units you actually train. And this happens all the way until endgame.

For Robin you actually have the do the training thing for a time (btw, have fun relying on RNG against the final boss if this is all you do). The Jeigan character actually falls off at a reasonable pace, settling into more of a support role, as intended.

When a Holsety user (literally +20 Spd, dat balance) walks in an army of enemy units and solos them all it’s super cool, but when the Avatar does it the game is unbalanced.

In addition, consider that the most mobile classes in FE13 aren’t necessarily the strongest, as is in FE4, FE7, FE9, etc. There’s an actual tradeoff there, and even Robin is threatened by some enemies/bosses if trying to braindead steamroll in a mounted/flier class. And trying so in L+? lol

Several players who have investigated and analyzed Lunatic+ the most disagree with the mainstream reaction, even among some FE veterans, of it being pure RNG and no skill. Counter, in particular, limits the standard kind of op-ness, where a unit solos whole armies on enemy phase. Even (tl;dr) ignoring the majority of the above post, this alone suggests to some extent, Awakening is deeper than you give it credit for.

Also consider that the game was out for months in Japan and sometime in the West before we heard much about how fast +Def Robin snowballs in Lunatic, then more months before the water trick in prologue, then months before we saw reports of how good +Spd Robin could be in Lunatic+. This is also suggestive that gamechanging strategies and tactics to be found in Awakening are rather nontrivial to discover (to more easily just beat these difficulties, not talking about challenges/ltcs here).

There are a lot of things to criticize Awakening about but all I futilely ask is that we make attempts at more informed, accurate and consistent remarks, especially regarding gameplay.

Reclassing turns the game into "get the best skills in each class, then use the strongest class as your base". Soft bans don't do much because the temptation to use second seals is still there, especially in a pinch. A no reclass mode would be a good compromise. That way, everyone gets what they want.

The point is that Awakening gives you the options and the customization. A player who likes to grind and reclass can do so, a player who doesn’t is not forced to. I wouldn’t really object the addition of a no-reclass mode, but theorycrafting from a design perspective, different selectable modes should perhaps add something more intricate than that, such as varying enemy stats/skills/positions, or the ability to save midbattle, no permadeath (casual). Something that inherently will appeal differently to various kinds of players, those who desire challenges or have varying strategy game experience/knowledge, but not really something already in the player control.

re: other grinding concerns people have mentioned. One could boss and arena abuse in past games. FE has never really been hard enough to force grinding, so players can do so if they wish (or not). Ranks are a possible solution, if well designed, but generally they end up too easy for veterans and marginally insulting to (or just ignored by) casual players.

Also, higher difficulties like in Awakening do change positionings, aggro, enemy weapons, etc. It’s just that it’s still not much of a challenge without the raw stats backing them up. There’s also relatively little rng that can’t be planned around, to some extent, even in L+. Probably not so much more than the (ever acclaimed) HHM which has Battle Before Dawn (other npc silliness) or like FE5 staff accuracy (across the game) or FE6 boss hit rates or even the popular builds of Fighter MU (hit rate)/Knight MU (speed growth) in FE12 Lunatic(‘).

Edited January 16, 2015 by XeKr

[quasimopho13]

You've intrigued me. I think I'll give fe13 lunatic + classic no grind a shot and/or fe12 lunatic after fe5. Maybe then, I'll have a bit more to add. Anyone want to hold onto my fe13 dlc to make sure that I don't falter ;D You guys win this argument for now. I need more info to back up my opinion or to see if it changes. Also, true that the series is changing which can either be accepted or rejected. I accept fire emblem, regardless of the lifestyle choices it makes.

Edited January 16, 2015 by quasimopho13

[Vorena]

I already mentioned this before about the map design. I think all rout maps can be interesting if there are several minor achievements that can be made throughout the game. The issue I had was the fact that until you get to Lunatic group of enemies never felt like an accomplishment to get through or a stepping stone into completing the chapter. There were often times no secondary objectives to complete either. The chapter where you get Cordelia is get through these groups of enemies before reinforcements show up. This is literally the whole map.

On Lunatic, however, I got this feeling of accomplishment getting through each couple of turns to face the next threat. However, once I reached middle game the game easily devolved into I can tank everything with 3-4 units and it became steamroll all enemies again. Due to how the game plays there is not even any reason to collect a lot of the later treasure in the game either since it really does not mean much. In FE7, getting a horseslayer in chapter 16 was really helpful for the next 4 chapters. Chapter 19 and 20 had dozens of initial horses to slay.

Its these careful item management, secondary goals, and enemy placements that really contribute to a good chapter despite it only having a clear condition of say "Seize". The map where you get Say'ri could have been really interesting map to play on with two changes. Add in an enemy which could destroy those villages. Have Say'ri not in the upper right corner, but on the beach cornered about to get captured with you having to rush along the sand to get to her. As you are trying to bump rush the boss and prevent the bandit from destorying the villages you have a hit squad go and save Say'ri along the beach. Instantly a more fun chapter to play on I feel.

FE13 maps could have been so much more despite only having commander slay and rout maps.

[kdports]

A few years ago I played an MMORPG which was initially very well balanced. Then they introduced a skill which let you paralyze basically any boss in the game while auto attacking them to death within a few seconds. Basically everyone but me used it. They also introduced weapons which could kill most normal enemies in one normal hit and weren't too hard to come by. They were used by most people as well. Well, not by me. All challenge gone. They reached their goals faster.

Nice point, but FE isn't an MMORPG. It is single player focused and multyplayer hasn't been a high priority for the dev team in previous games.

Also, you making the decision to bring your favorite character back isn't the games problem. The game didn't make you bring your character back. That was your decision, and giving players options isn't a bad thing, even if the player doesn't like one of the options. I agree with you, i probably would bring my best character back, but the option of you not doing so is very legitimate and one a lot of players looking for a challenge would take.

[XeKr]

I already mentioned this before about the map design. I think all rout maps can be interesting if there are several minor achievements that can be made throughout the game. The issue I had was the fact that until you get to Lunatic group of enemies never felt like an accomplishment to get through or a stepping stone into completing the chapter. There were often times no secondary objectives to complete either. The chapter where you get Cordelia is get through these groups of enemies before reinforcements show up. This is literally the whole map.

On Lunatic, however, I got this feeling of accomplishment getting through each couple of turns to face the next threat. However, once I reached middle game the game easily devolved into I can tank everything with 3-4 units and it became steamroll all enemies again. Due to how the game plays there is not even any reason to collect a lot of the later treasure in the game either since it really does not mean much. In FE7, getting a horseslayer in chapter 16 was really helpful for the next 4 chapters. Chapter 19 and 20 had dozens of initial horses to slay.

Its these careful item management, secondary goals, and enemy placements that really contribute to a good chapter despite it only having a clear condition of say "Seize". The map where you get Say'ri could have been really interesting map to play on with two changes. Add in an enemy which could destroy those villages. Have Say'ri not in the upper right corner, but on the beach cornered about to get captured with you having to rush along the sand to get to her. As you are trying to bump rush the boss and prevent the bandit from destorying the villages you have a hit squad go and save Say'ri along the beach. Instantly a more fun chapter to play on I feel.

FE13 maps could have been so much more despite only having commander slay and rout maps.

I agree completely in principle, there are many improvements to be made, especially on the flavor side. (a bit surprising since Awakening is fairly well polished overall, maybe streamlining went too far here)

Though you mentioned Horseslayer in FE7, well really with just double mt it’s about just the same strength of a Silver Lance which you have a few of, with better weight/hit/uses, and Marcus/Sain/Kent probably only need Javelins anyways. >_>

Generally (imo) most treasure isn’t that amazing in FE, beyond stuff like Warp/Rescue, boots, gold (for forging, quite important given relatively scarcity earlygame here). Actually I find a lot of enemies drop some decently nice stuff in Awakening like statboosters, early promotion items, effective weapons (triple damage and forgeable here), legendary weapons. Again, I do agree some pressure to get these secondary objectives of village/chests would be good, though in fairness, this happens in C18 with the lava destroying chests and C21 with the periodic crazy reinforcements, as well as quite a few other chapters with bandits/thieves. Many maps also have soft turn limits, where the whole map will aggro or a huge wave of reinforcements spawn.

Other people will talk about stuff like the earlygame FE9 defense maps, well okay, except you could just send Titania and pretty much solo everything (or sit units unequipped in a chokepoint, in maniac). FE10 defense maps? Send Jill/Haar to 2 turn, etc (not even fancy Rescue chaining needed). [edit: To add, unlike FE13, skipping maps in this manner doesn't really matter as both are easy enough lategame and you're handed op units in some cases. Rescue chaining FE13 maps has more consequences...]

From a pure strategic perspective, I personally don’t find these maps add much. From a flavor perspective, fine (even great), but general complaints appear to often refer to the former which doesn’t make that much sense to me. One consideration here is FE13 Lunatic is (apparently) difficult enough that some players will feel “forced” to Avatar steamroll it when it’s not necessary. Otoh, it’s a bit easier to use other units in past games so I suppose it feels more strategic on these kinds of maps when doing less optimal stuff.

The nature of FE in general is that for the most part it’s rather easy to overpower units in the midgame if you only use a few. However Pair Up, importantly, allows our units to surpass the caps, meaning they never really lose that steamroll potential in FE13 (until L+) compared to games like FE12 (and in most other games, enemies don’t really get close to maxed stats). Still I suspect complaints come primarily from hard mode players (which is rather trivial if you Pair Up, sorry if dismissive), not Lunatic+ players. Perhaps I’m being too unfairly harsh here, but the easy reaction of dismissing it as RNG frees the player from thinking about strategies to tackle it.

Edited January 16, 2015 by XeKr