Did Fire Emblem move in the wrong direction?

[Lord Raven]

Character writing: I keep seeing people talk about characters being "flat" or lacking "subtlety" like that's something new to the series, and... I don't know where to start. A lot of the complaints just sound like rationalizing a personal bias to me. And of course, that's obviously not an argument anybody is going to win.

I'm not too fond of a lot of character development outside of FE8 and FE9, and at least pre-FE13 they weren't just and out-and-out caricature of what each character was supposed to be.

As I said, IS got it right in FE8 and FE9 but fell off a cliff in FE10. FE11 was an issue, FE12 I haven't seen much of, and FE13 was just completely bad in comparison to what FE8 and FE9 did. I'm assuming you're talking about me, because I was the one who said something about subtlety.

The FE5 characters who had dialogue were preferable to FE13, although at least FE13 gives every character dialogue (I'm looking at you, Kein and Alva).

[Irysa]

Actually, I think rather than FE10, FE12 is where it started to go really bad for character development. Althought admittedly there are some great additions to the script, I consider it mostly a two steps forward, one step back in regard to characterisation and writing, which is saying a LOT when you consider the amount that FE1, 3, and 11 were utilising to create surprisingly compelling characters. FE10 did drop the ball in many respects and that is honestly a large part of why I hold a degree of disdain for the game still, but I'd hesitate to say that it neccessarily reached Awakening levels of caricatures, or was even hinting at them in it's dialogue. FE12 on the other hand does reach into those levels of awkwardly inserted dumb cringeworthy cliche nonsense with far too much of it's new or edited dialogue, mostly revolving around Chris as the completely flawless and perfect self insert. I may as well just link this prior thread where it was briefly discussed from here and on the following page, but it puts into perspective how Archanea fans felt about FE12's script.

FE11 drops the ball on a ton of characters in terms of development, but what little is there is present is shockingly compelling thanks to the localisation script. I'd never have expected to grow so attached to a lot of the characters present, Caeda defines herself by her recruit conversations and small talk with Ogma, Catria and Palla have great conversations with Minerva, and Marth himself goes through some serious changes and contemplation. Considering what little they had to work with, the end result is phenomenal. Some of the additional things are surprisingly subtle as well such as Cain's survivor's guilt which is only really played up in his death quote but is led into quite well by the extra Prologue, which is also handled great, or some characters reciving non mutual support bonuses from others or things alluded to in their endings (Whitewings again take the cake). I'll admit, I headcanon a lot of what's not there but what IS there in FE11 is generally enough to get my imagination rolling and persevere as endearing afterwards.

[RJWalker]

Actually, I think rather than FE10, FE12 is where it started to go really bad for character development. Althought admittedly there are some great additions to the script, I consider it mostly a two steps forward, one step back in regard to characterisation and writing, which is saying a LOT when you consider the amount that FE1, 3, and 11 were utilising to create surprisingly compelling characters. FE10 did drop the ball in many respects and that is honestly a large part of why I hold a degree of disdain for the game still, but I'd hesitate to say that it neccessarily reached Awakening levels of caricatures, or was even hinting at them in it's dialogue. FE12 on the other hand does reach into those levels of awkwardly inserted dumb cringeworthy cliche nonsense with far too much of it's new or edited dialogue, mostly revolving around Chris as the completely flawless and perfect self insert. I may as well just link this prior thread where it was briefly discussed from here and on the following page, but it puts into perspective how Archanea fans felt about FE12's script.

FE11 drops the ball on a ton of characters in terms of development, but what little is there is present is shockingly compelling thanks to the localisation script. I'd never have expected to grow so attached to a lot of the characters present, Caeda defines herself by her recruit conversations and small talk with Ogma, Catria and Palla have great conversations with Minerva, and Marth himself goes through some serious changes and contemplation. Considering what little they had to work with, the end result is phenomenal. Some of the additional things are surprisingly subtle as well such as Cain's survivor's guilt which is only really played up in his death quote but is led into quite well by the extra Prologue, which is also handled great, or some characters reciving non mutual support bonuses from others or things alluded to in their endings (Whitewings again take the cake). I'll admit, I headcanon a lot of what's not there but what IS there in FE11 is generally enough to get my imagination rolling and persevere as endearing afterwards.

Man, I agree so much with this post. The trope-y characterizaton does indeed start in FE12's supports. The Kris supports are almist all garbage in my opinion. Only the other supports are any good. Unfortunately, those are very few and Kris gets most of the focus. I especially hate how Kris is always fucking training. Even if Kris is a mage, they're still sparring with Ogma, Sirius, etc. Gaah.

[Lord Raven]

I am so glad I skipped a lot of the dialogue playing FE12, then, considering what I've just read.

trope-y is definitely the best word I've used to describe it. Tropes are okay and all, but when someone almost fits it to a T then it's terrible. Tsundere has to be my least favorite word on the fucking earth.

[Irysa]

I think that's something of an oversimplification of it really. I find it's less of a problem with the tropes themselves rather than their specific overuse, overexposure and hyper exaggerated nature breaching suspension of disbelief and leading to cringe moments frequently. Cliches and such exist because they work and have relevance, and FE has always had a bunch of more snarky, exaggerated or comedic value characters present. People haven't traditionally complained about them or about the less than neccessarily appropriately sombre attitude that even the less silly characters have despite all the killing going on and such. FE is kinda overly idealistic/romanticised in that sense anyway, and has been for a while. However there's basically not an overload of it. They don't lay it on too thickly in great frequency, so it doesn't really feel like a problem.

FE12's biggest problem is in that pacing. Chris worship is just so abundantly shoved into your face, forcibly inserted into the script in place of other characters. His/her insufferably boring and idiotic nature is also constantly being brought to the forefront as a result in supports because he/she supports everyone too. I just ended up loathing the character and everything they represented, and simultaneously ended up feeling even more disgusted by the amount of pandering and sucking up everyone gives to them. In addition, there are a bunch of characters who were simply never intended to be scrutinised but because of their supports with Chris, they've had new lazily inserted and repetitive dialogue added. Said supports just seem to revolve around reemphasising a personality gimmick over repeatedly and don't really have any meaningful purpose to them whatsoever. To top that all off, the new gaiden chapters, characters, and assassin subplot aren't just bad because they're badly written and corny beyond belief, they actually negatively impact the pacing of the story by deemphasising dramatic peaks and rudely interrupting high points in the narrative. (The chapters themselves also such mechanically but I'm just ranting about narrative here so whatever.) They don't feel like they belong there at all, it's so blatantly obvious that it's been inserted. May as well just quote myself on this.

Take 3x: Immediately after a supposedly dramatic moment where Marth rejects Lang's authority and swears to save the Grustian Royals, even if it goes against Hardin's wishes, and there is a huge sense of established urgency...oh theres somebody in the mountains here and those assassins from like, last year, lets go stop them guiz! (doesn't help Chris forced him/herself into the scene badly when it was supposed to be Jeigan that got the ball rolling but whatever).

Or 13x, where for pretty much no good reason than "oh there might be something there" they decide to BACK OUT OF THE ENTRANCE OF THE DRAGON SHRINE WHICH THEY'VE SPENT THREE CHAPTERS TREKKING TO.

Some of the obligatory Chris supports have merit in just allowing a platform for a character who did have an established personality to present themselves and their motivations (which is admittedly welcome), but any redeeming qualities comes from their base origins in FE1/3/11 anyway, and have generally nothing to do with Chris individually. I'm pretty confident essentially any of the good ones could be easily modified to simply have a different character fufilling Chris's presence in the conversation with a bit of editing. But credit where credit is due, and FE12 has good stuff there too. It's just hard to feel positive about it when the game is suffocating you on Chris and ruining it's best moments with Assassin subplot garbage.

And this leads into my point about Awakening. No, it's not that Robin neccessarily falls into the same trap. In fact I think Robin actually avoids most of it by generally having a much blander and amicable personality. The thing about Awakening is that this...overexposure that FE12 suffered from is actually something that nearly every character now suffers from. The abundance of repetitive supports (due to the sheer volume that exist), and the voicing/in battle animations and extra lines characters have in level ups/barracks and stuff. Now don't misunderstand, I'm not saying those should go entirely or anything, but I think at least to me to they just serve to keep shoveling the same old static "gimmick" that a character has into your face repeatedly. In a way in games prior there was an element of blandness during downtime that helped to break up the impression you'd get of characters. But when the presentation is now so acutely focused all the time the blandness is gone and you're essentially gambling on whether each gimmick hits your funnybone or cute radar on whether you find the character endearing or not. This is really polarising and is why a lot of people just end up so disdainful about the cast in this game, they're just constantly having those aspects highlighted.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Irysa

[Jedi]

Something that FE6, 7, 8, 9 and even parts of 4 and 5 before it. Was have the tone of every support between various characters be about different aspects of their character. 12 and 13 had SOME small touches of this but not enough.

Matthew for instance in FE7, he's a cheerful yet tragic character, his more cheerful and goofy notes are mentioned in his talks with Hector and Serra (although his tragity with Lelia is also highlighted in story talks with Hector and his ending with Serra.)

His practical and pragmatic fighting style, side is shown in his supports with Guy despite the mostly comedic elements of said supports.

His support with Jaffar shows his more vengeful side and his want for justice, but it also highlights his forgivness, he sees how Jaffar has changed after their talk about Nino and he actually forgives him, its one of the most powerful support lines in 7 honestly and my best example of IS having quality writing, 7 has good supports all around and its story may have benefit from having their support quality writing on (Although I do enjoy 7's story)

Edited February 1, 2015 by Jedi

[Splodge]

I think it's less about a step in the wrong direction, and more about a step in a different direction. Obviously, if you were attached to the old mechanics. you'll be sad to see them go. I was annoyed when they simplified magic too, and when they removed canto, but then they also added a whole bunch of new mechanics. Double up acts pretty much exactly the same as rescue, but better, reclassing is made so much simpler, the support system is improved and they expanded upon skills.

The problem though is that, yes, these mechanics are much more often seen in SRPGs, but that still doesn't mean they can't be added in well. Sure, many of these mechanics may seem broken, but it's IS' first step into mechanics like pair up. The map design was simplified to accommodate this. Maybe they've learned they can be more adventurous, and hopefully they can improve it with the next game. Personally, I blame the lack of variation in the map win requirements is the inclusion of the world map, as odd as it sounds. It would be awfully bizarre to go back to a map, only to immediately escape or defend it. I haven't played 2, but from what I hear, enemy armies can come back and attack the previously visited maps, so there, it makes sense. As for 8, the only time I remember defending was in one of the sections where one couldn't go back to the world map, so it does make slightly more sense.

As for the "waifu" stuff, I think it's only made that much more apparent by the MU being able to marry and have a child, and the inclusion of child units at all. Every single fire emblem game ever has had romantic supports, but the games usually weren't somewhat centered around them. Obviously 4 being the exception. The difference here is that they aren't optional, and are extremely important to the plot. Whilst 13's time travel aspect is very apparent, it does little other then the child units and the very end. Even then there are really only three characters that are directly influenced by the time travel (not including child units), whereas in 4 everyone is involved with the child units, so it feels less "waifu"-ish, and more "plot"-ish.

As for the ol' FoW, It was probably because there was too much hate going on from the community. Seriously, it has to be one of the most hated game mechanics every conceived. The people who happen to like FoW, like myself and you it would seem, are the vast exception. That or they're just very quite about liking it.

Though one thing I cannot argue is overall atmosphere (Which you didn't mention). I don't dislike the newer games as much as most people, I think, but one thing I cannot deny is the lack of atmosphere that is present in the earlier games. 13 has atmosphere, don't get me wrong, but it's not the same as the other games. Atmosphere goes a long way in changing how people play, and how people think they play the game, and this is what usually causes people rationalizing with odd claims, as they're just trying to grab on to something. I couldn't even tell you what that "old" FE atmosphere is, but I know it isn't there. I would best describe it as every unit matters, preparing is extremely important, and that these mechanics are both simple and deep (even if it's not true, that's the atmosphere). Note that I am grouping ALL "old" fire emblems, so this isn't the case with every one, just common examples, imo. 13's atmosphere, if I had to describe it would be more along the lines of, each unit is capable of standing on their own, and that a good strategy is to have good tactics.

Generally, I think the problems are coming from the series' lean towards TRPGs. Right now it's stuck in the middle, still leaning towards SRPG, but it's still unsure where it wants to be.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Splodge

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I don't know, if this belongs to the point atmosphere, but I miss in FE13 that nothing really exciting or surprising happens during a map. Some bosses mention, when reinforcements will appear - that's it! Everything is predictable. No special event.

Examples for events are:

• in FE5 in chapter 5
• in FE6, when Zephiel deposed Cecilia and after that Miledy joins your party
• in FE9 in chapter 11 when the Black Knight suddenly appears as ambush

Edited February 11, 2015 by The Taninator

[AwesomeSauce]

Personally, I only miss the Magic triangle, Mission types, Ballistae, Steal command, and the more advanced enemy mechanics that make them seem more like the player (IE: Enemies trading and Enemies using staves). I do not miss the fog of war maps, Weapon weight (Unless they fix it, like first stated) and the Rescue, Take and Drop commands. For the commands, I just find them obselete with the new Dual Up system, and I always found it odd that the rescued units couldn't fight alongside the rescuers, so I like that change, honestly. That's just from a personal standpoint, but then again, I've only played FE 6-8 and FE 11-13. I also just hate Fog of War. I really do.

[Dragrath]

Personally I think FE has to an extent gone the wrong path (but fir a good reason accessibility saved the series but it can easily be redeemed by implementing mechanics. I feel FE 10 featured the best gameplay mechanics most notably with the high ground advantage that added a tactical element to positioning.

In regards to the OP I'd be happy if status staves returned and feel the lack of map variation in FE13 was one of its weakest points.

Arrive in XX turns escape and defend maps helped break the games motonoteny and mix up strategeies somthing Awakening was greatly lacking with its excessive route enemy maps (where Route is honestly the dullest condition in any game)

the removal of the steal command is also a disapointment as it was one of the main values of theives something chests alone can not mimic nothing is more satisfying that tactically removing a dangerous weapon from an enemy letting an ally that couldn't have beat that enemy with that weapon... Or even stealing an extra copy of a rare weapon (especially if disarm returns, I went through a good amount of effort to get a Venin lance as a trophy in FE 10)!

while I am a great fan of enemy skills the random skills in FE 13 are a detriment as they are not a tactical element. Conversely if enemies were given set skills instead it becomes an element that helps differentiate enemies and add prioritization to who to target

aka "that swordmaster to the left will have vantage swordfaire astra and wrath with a killing edge I need to prioritize him as last time he wiped out X unit" Awakening actually ad a good skill management system w/ DLC scrolls (which ideally could be used as rare one time items (in game w/ out DLC) to give an ally a skill they might not be able to obtain otherwise)

The old rescue system was also better than the current pair up as it actually featured downsides though I would not be oposed to a hybridization of the two systems (as in stats droped but the saved unit can help fight back)

OP I also miss Ballista and magic triangle too...

Ballista and other long rage weapons as well as pitfalls made for potent obstacles that you need to work around and were one of the few player repellents that made you act tactically.

In regards to the magic Triangle I actually wouldn't mind if they keep tomes under one type but return the spell variations/triangle and perhaps give special advantages to each weapon type akin to what the Telius series did against Laguz units

(aka for the magic triangle they could keep the light dark anima triangle but give bonuses to each type

Light would be effective against monsters and perhaps have special traits and Dark magic but loose to Anima,

Dark magic would carry special traits and beat Anima magic but would lose to light magic and only be usable by Dark magic classes

Wind would be anima magic effective against fliers but weak to dark

Fire could be anima that would deal bonus to beasts...

Thunder could gain a bonus against armor/dragons

suddenly the magic sub types would be that much more terrifying... and have a more tactical benefit...

(also enemies can trade and use items in FE13 thy just rarely have spare items... more items on enemies would be a good addition giving them anti status healing and pure waters would be a great addition...

Fog of war could be improved upon but I would love to see it return (I'd like to see enemies have a bit of a fog disadvantage

all these good mechanics could have been implemented to make FE 13 a much better game even if the game has been opened up to newer markets with its ease of life features but they were dropped I only hope that IS realizes their value to mixing up encounters and returns them to us in FE 14 and beyond as these types of lost mechanics+ what they have in FE 13 would be the best way to support old and new fans!

[Radiant head]

"Waifu-stuff": Ergh, I can't take that word even a little seriously. You know what? Folks want to act like Awakening created some shipping epidemic? That was inevitable from the moment they decided to borrow its central gimmick from Genealogy of the Holy War. It's seriously too early to be calling this a "new direction" for the series now, any more than it was then.

Waifu refers to being able to marry your self-insert character.

[shadowofchaos]

Waifu refers to being able to marry your self-insert character.

That is not an all encompassing definition of that shameful word (if taken seriously).

[RedEyedDrake]

Not to mention that it is more often the opposite, since most people don't actually want to form that sort of connection with themselves.

[DeadGame]

Once they scrap the cheese it's going back on track again.

[Radiant head]

That is not an all encompassing definition of that shameful word (if taken seriously).

Which is irrelevant, since I said "refers to," not "can be wholly defined as,", and not to mention we're only talking about the FE/Awakening context of it here.

[Anacybele]

For the longest time, I haven't been sure what to say in this topic, but now I know.

Game mechanics are important to me, but not the most important thing. Characters and story are equally important to me. Which is why I enjoyed Tellius the most. RD had my favorite characters and mechanics and its story was awesome. PoR's story was even better, and still had my favorite characters and some cool mechanics.

I really want RD's innovative stuff to come back. Attacking from atop ledges, climbing ledges, third tier classes, being able to counterattack with staves (even if this rarely did any damage lol), this stuff was awesome! Add this stuff with Awakening's pair-up system and a mesh of PoR's and Awakening's support system, and I have my perfect FE gameplay.

I also don't mind magic being separated into five groups. I want the Trinities of Magic to return too, it added more strategy to the mix. Same with light magic. Weapon weight also added to the strategy. Bring this stuff back, IS! Plzzz.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Anacybele

[Garnef]

I don't consider FE11 and FE12 as games that were basically, "Hey, here's the path FE is going down," since they were remakes. Not to mention, FE12 fixed pretty much almost every problem with FE11.

Meanwhile, FE13 on the other hand was where I got erked. Minus Shadow Dragon, it was the only entry in the franchise where it got stale in less than 3 playthroughs. The original post though seems to have basically informed me as to why. FE13 took out so much stuff, that the game basically became more streamlined, thus, it got repetitive pretty quickly.

I'm fine with a game including fanservice, but don't take out the things that made your series good in the first place, IS.

As for the best features, I haven't played all the games, but I'd have to go with FE7 and 8 as normal entries, but FE12 had the best remake features, even if Chris wasn't a very good character.

[Irysa]

Not to mention, FE12 fixed pretty much almost every problem with FE11.

Except, you know, the writing, narrative, character agency, game design not revolving around growths...

[Tryhard]

fe11 bored me to tears so much i could never finish it, i cared not for the admittedly good script, yet I finished FE12 several times

Edited February 20, 2015 by Tryhard

[Irysa]

I'm not really going to get into what's ultimately a really subjective interpretation of what game was more "fun", I'm just saying that FE12 most certainly did not improve on FE11 in those areas.

(I will say H5 FE11 is fun though)

Edited February 20, 2015 by Irysa

[Garnef]

Well, I wasn't really being subjective there, I mean, objectively, FE12 improved upon a lot of things that FE11 did. FE12 added supports, making the characters at least somewhat notable, meaning, characters like Vyland and Radd finally get some dialogue. Last I checked, it also added more of the new classes in the main story than FE11 did. Also, gaiden chapters. FE12 objectively improved a lot of problems with FE11. Whether you like it or not is a different story, I was just stating facts.

[Junkhead]

I think FE13 has indeed taken the wrong direction with all the fanservice and showering you with resources. But I also think it's a bit too early to say that FE has taken that route. Yes, it has for one game, and it's been successful by selling it's soul...partially, not entirely. Let's just hope the new game doesn't go down this path. I'll probably love it anyway, lol.

I think FE10 has the best game mechanics. Between a really flexible support system, interchangable skills, BEXP, decent difficulty...it did great. FE9 should come close behind, if only for MM at least. FE5 is really strategical, but also has a lot of luck-based factors that make it more frustrating than ginuinely hard, at times.

On GBA games: They are the most simple FE games in terms of mechanics, but that's sometimes all that's needed.

[Inference]

Well, I wasn't really being subjective there, I mean, objectively, FE12 improved upon a lot of things that FE11 did. FE12 added supports, making the characters at least somewhat notable, meaning, characters like Vyland and Radd finally get some dialogue. Last I checked, it also added more of the new classes in the main story than FE11 did. Also, gaiden chapters. FE12 objectively improved a lot of problems with FE11. Whether you like it or not is a different story, I was just stating facts.

This entire post is misguided. First, you misleadingly claimed that FE12 fixed almost everything wrong with FE11, as if they were significant, pervasive flaws worthy of singling out. Then, you proceed exemplify your point with minor nitpicking.

The point about supports, for example, is nonsense: FE12 has some of the weakest supports in the entire series, and some of them are so uninformative that they're insulting. The example you used in Vyland tells us nothing of his character. Sedgar as well. We didn't need supports to tell us that these guys were lackies in the Wolfguard. Roshea has the only compelling supports of those four, and even still, you would already understand who he is and what he fights for if you skipped them.

70+ characters, all with supports, is way overboard. Shadow Dragon did well in focusing the meat of its script on superior narrative, with some special events in between to change the pace and tell us more about characters who actually get shit done. Ogma and Caeda, Camus, Marth, and Nyna, and Hardin and Marth all had better map conversations than any base convos FE12 shit out. I can't believe you've actually read FE12's supports if you prefer them to Shadow Dragon's.

Then, there's your issue with sidequests. Honestly, the sidequests were not a big deal at the end of the day. They're sidequests. FEs 4 and 9 didn't have them at all and weren't wanting for them. You can skip FE11's as if they weren't there, and it would not compromise any of the story or gameplay.

These complaints are superficial at best, and hardly mark any significant changes between the games.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

FE11 is alright for people, who are only focussed on the strategical part. It has a great variety of difficulties (same goes for FE12 too).

Though it has almost no story or character descriptions. Supports don't exist and there are only very rare conversations during the game.

You finish a chapter, then there will be told a few lines about the next chapter and maybe you'll see a short conversation. That's it! This game is so bland for me. I cannot identify with anyone of these characters, because I don't get any information about them. Marth, Caeda, Linde and Merric are the only ones I'll learn a few details.

On the other hand FE12 added some interesting new features like creating of an avatar and the barracks, similar how they exist in FE13. This game includes support conversations.

Unfortunately I can't say anything about them, because I only have played the Japanese version for the JP DS yet. (however I'm going to replay it with an English translation patch).

However I noticed that most of the support conversations are focussed on the avatar. After reading the comments here, it seems a little bit that he/she steals Marth the spotlight in this game.

The problem of this game is it's a remake. So most stuff of the original had to be adopted. It became a burden for the game mechanics. This game only consists of seize missions and Marth is still the only one, who can visit the villages. Also good mechanics like the weapon weight and dismounting were removed, which I really can't understand. The dismount feature was a great idea in FE3.

I still enjoy FE12. It's definitely a better remake than FE11 was. However it's noticeable that the game mechanics are reduced.

Edited February 21, 2015 by The Taninator

[RJWalker]

Fuck Kris. Fuck Kris so much.