Did Fire Emblem move in the wrong direction?

[Tryhard]

I feel as though I need to add that balance was never an integral part of my enjoyment of the series. Hell, my favourite is FE2 and it's one of the most unbalanced in the series. I like it because fun. There didn't really need to be a deeper reason than that, but I could tell you why I find it fun. A lot of people find FE4 to be their favourite but I think they would have a hard time justifying the 'balance' of that game. People talk about balance a lot but I've yet to find a FE I can truly call 'balanced' to begin with, at least IMO.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Tryhard

[Ownagepuffs]

Move in the wrong direction? For me, yes. But I see that most people seem to think not and Fire Emblem has done excellently from Awakening, so I have to wonder if I'm the one that's out of touch.

But you have to consider that "most people" is comprised mostly of people who've never touched the series a day in their life. How is it that you would be the one out of touch when you have an arguably more credible opinion than most of the Awakening fanbase?

In other words, how would you be out of touch compared to someone who's never been in touch to begin with?

[Tryhard]

But you have to consider that "most people" is comprised mostly of people who've never touched the series a day in their life. How is it that you would be the one out of touch when you have an arguably more credible opinion than most of the Awakening fanbase?

In other words, how would you be out of touch compared to someone who's never been in touch to begin with?

I would rather the series entertain a good amount of people even if it's not to my tastes than fall on its face and die, which is likely what was going to happen to it without Awakening.

If I end up not liking the games, oh well. There's enough elsewhere to keep me entertained, including the older games. But the sort of posturing that my opinion is somehow more valid is not something I take part in revelling in, and would likely be labelled "elitist". Then again, I'm not entirely sure what that word even means. I don't particular like arguing what the series "really is."

Edited January 19, 2015 by Tryhard

[General Banzai]

You can't really trivialize Luna+ with Nosferatu or the Avatar (Galeforks is another story, but bluh)

In fact, both Nos and MU feel like integral tools that must be used wisely to proceed, not ways to just blaze through

[Gradivus.]

I doubt that you can trivialize Lunatic+ with Galeforce either, you lose so much exp distribution if you just gf-chain 1-turn C13-20, because C21, and especially C23 and C24 will bite your ass. I'm pretty sure that the 1-turn possibilities are intentionally integrated by IS, with 23 and 24 afterwards to make it a controversial strat. (On LTC, it still is by far the best way though) Galeforce probably can still find much use outside of 1-turning, and instead in doing Rescue bombs with 4 kills for 2 rescues per turn.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Ownagepuffs]

I would rather the series entertain a good amount of people even if it's not to my tastes than fall on its face and die, which is likely what was going to happen to it without Awakening.

If I end up not liking the games, oh well. There's enough elsewhere to keep me entertained, including the older games. But the sort of posturing that my opinion is somehow more valid is not something I take part in revelling in, and would likely be labelled "elitist". Then again, I'm not entirely sure what that word even means. I don't particular like arguing what the series "really is."

It's not elitist. If you've actually played through the series, then anything you have to say regarding the series will be backed by experience. How are you the one that's out of touch compared to someone who has literally only played Awakening? That's the only thing I don't understand.

[XeKr]

Re: some complaints in brief

- "No true scotsman", "stop liking what I don't like", "nooooo uuuu", etc. Think that about covers it.

- It's actually possible some people like things you don't. Crazy.

- Lunatic+ RNG/impossibility is overstated somewhat. And I probably care more about reliability than most.

- Lunatic+ is probably the biggest change in play that a selectable difficulty mode offers in the series, with some of the most in-chapter fluid decision-making/improvisation.

But who cares about all that anyway? What I really want to know is how come I get the impression all these design/difficulty complaints are more prominent (well, more rage perhaps?) years after we've had games such as FE4/FE8/FE9 (which btw, a lot of people, including me really really enjoy)

Now FE is dead you're mad? >_>

edit: Okay in fairness some people are probably solidly FE5 or bust, but many others will refer to some more recent games

Edited January 19, 2015 by XeKr

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Honestly one thing that makes me all fine with Awakening now(huge keyword. I actually did not touch the game for months because I hated the gameplay) is the fact that I think its for all purpose an all star game.

I bought it with an expectation its going to be a clusterfuck with several mechanics thrown together. Its supposed to be a game where IS goes "hey, we used to have these cool mechanics on the old games, and now we are re-using it in a more fun environment for you to play with"

Of course I don't know if they are really going to model the next FE games after FE:A, or if FE:A is simply a one stop where they fuck around and then proceed to make a more "serious" game

TBH I feel the same feeling going from FE4/5 into FE6

FE4 and FE5 is, to me a game where they fuck around. FE4 has that "fun" that comes from epic 2 generation saga, making pairings and watching them kicking ass over the long field, while FE5 is basically bunch of people making games while smoking weeds, which explained why Thracia as a whole is an extremely crazy, broken game. I could imagine this happened during the makings of Thracia Chapter 1

Staff A: How are we going to make the chapter 1

Kaga: Lets start with the cast, the lord makes people around him invincible! REASON: Leaf is a cute boy, so he activated the pedophilian power of his teammates

Staff A; BRILLIANT!

Kaga: And we need to make 3 super strong people to protect him! One is an unkillable swordswoman. Because Eyvel is a Zombie!

Staff A: Genius!
Kaga: And then lets have Finn in here somewhere because we absolutely love Finn enough that we have to include him in every game! We give him a weapon that killed everything, allowed him to steal items just as he easilly stole Lachesis from his oniichan.

Staff A: But what if he dies?

Kaga: NOOO he's to fabulous to die! Give him a skill that almost make him unkillable!

Or something like that

And then comes FE6, the game is extremely bland, and everything is so basic. It took the additional stuff coming from FE5, such as the Rescue/Drop mechanic and fix it up. FE7 perfect it by introducing THE SINGLE MOST BRILLIANT FEATURE EVER KNOWN TO FIRE EMBLEM known as using item during preparation screen

Honestly I must be the only person in this forum who hated FE6 simply because you can't use items on the fucking preparation screen

Edited January 19, 2015 by JSND

[General Banzai]

Nah I hate not being able to use items during screen in FE6 too

Although I don't like it for a lot of other reasons, but it's still better than FE4 :V

[Ownagepuffs]

Being able to use items in the prep screen would be too OP.

[Baldrick]

I would rather the series entertain a good amount of people even if it's not to my tastes than fall on its face and die, which is likely what was going to happen to it without Awakening.

While your philosophy is enlightening and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, my personal feeling is that the end result is one and the same; I will stop playing new Fire Emblem games. While I don't begrudge the new fans, they would also have plenty of media they could enjoy instead. It's not a stretch to say those who have played the games for years would miss the FE series more. In the end, there's no point in complaining about it or taking it out on the new fans, I just have to hope the new game will be to my liking. Or just play hacks, I guess.

[Kysafen]

I'm not going to deny that each game in the series brought something new to the table:

FE2 introduced the idea of a story with split paths

FE3 introduced the idea of growth rates, as well as an actual graphical representation of movement range

FE4 introduced skills

FE5 introduced rescuing, capturing, fog of war, escape, defend/survive, fatigue

FE6 introduced actually being able to re-position your units at the start of battle

FE7 introduced being able to use your stat boosters in-game, as well as an "alternative" hard mode that changes more than just stats

FE8 introduced a plethora of new classes and refined FE2's split path system

FE11 introduced reclassing (as loath as I am to it as a gameplay concept, at least as a mechanic unlocked from the get-go)

FE12 introduced the Avatar and casual mode

FE13 introduced pair-up

(for the record, haven't played FE1/2/3/9/10 to completion)

And here's the thing: Nintendo could have designed all of Awakening's maps brilliantly, they could have written the characters far better, they could've written the 3-plot story to not be the clusterfuck that it is, and they could've had more chapter mission objectives, and I'd bet the game still would have sold as amazingly as it did. It begs the question as to why Awakening sold so well.

I'll still buy Fire Emblem if. I'm not going to generalize that all hope has been lost and say "goodbye forever to new entries in the series, for you are but dead to me," because I like to judge something by its own merits, not from its predecessors. After all, one game isn't another game in the series unless you're Sacred Stones; then you're the result of what happens if you fuse Gaiden's overworld/grind mechanics with Fire Emblem 6's plot devices.

[eclipse]

FE9 introduced Fixed Mode.

FE10 introduced universal supports (literally, anyone can support anyone else).

And, uhhh. . .FE1 introduced the damn series, and FE3 introduced items that influence stat growths (off the top of my head).

[Loki Laufeyson]

I feel as though I need to add that balance was never an integral part of my enjoyment of the series. Hell, my favourite is FE2 and it's one of the most unbalanced in the series. I like it because fun. There didn't really need to be a deeper reason than that, but I could tell you why I find it fun. A lot of people find FE4 to be their favourite but I think they would have a hard time justifying the 'balance' of that game. People talk about balance a lot but I've yet to find a FE I can truly call 'balanced' to begin with, at least IMO.

I agree so hard with this. Its never been able balance for me. Its about fun and squishing junk and having a good time. I get theres people out there who maths and LTC for fun, but come on. You can do that in any game in the series.

But you have to consider that "most people" is comprised mostly of people who've never touched the series a day in their life. How is it that you would be the one out of touch when you have an arguably more credible opinion than most of the Awakening fanbase?

In other words, how would you be out of touch compared to someone who's never been in touch to begin with?

"Ive played the series longer than most of these casual zombies. They never knew what they are talking about!!"

This is why we cant have nice things. Kelsper is right, balance has never been the name of the game, and its rather useless to keep complaining when its not everyone else who has a problem.

[Florete]

FE9 introduced Fixed Mode.

FE10 introduced universal supports (literally, anyone can support anyone else).

And, uhhh. . .FE1 introduced the damn series, and FE3 introduced items that influence stat growths (off the top of my head).

I think he's talking about features that stuck around, because otherwise the Tellius games introduced plenty more than that (as did other FEs).

I would say they introduced the base area where units can support, the player can shop, etc. And weapon forging.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I think he's talking about features that stuck around, because otherwise the Tellius games introduced plenty more than that (as did other FEs).

I would say they introduced the base area where units can support, the player can shop, etc. And weapon forging.

Yeah Tellius did do that. The Base/Barracks began there. (and im so goddamn glad it stuck. Ugh i hated doing supports on the field.)

Hang on, I though FE4 had forges, or am i going mad again?

[Refa]

Yeah, you're going mad with power. FE9 was the first FE game with forges, so that's another thing it did!

[Tryhard]

It's not elitist. If you've actually played through the series, then anything you have to say regarding the series will be backed by experience. How are you the one that's out of touch compared to someone who has literally only played Awakening? That's the only thing I don't understand.

I didn't mean it in the sense of a comparison of the knowledge in the series because obviously I might have more of an input when talking about the series as a whole compared to someone who has just played Awakening. I was meaning it more in the sense that reading over a lot of what people want here has lead me to believe that I want very different things from either the old school fans who want a return to old and the new fans that have just played Awakening. Plus IS has seemed to have somewhat shifted their goals as well, which is understandable considering they would be somewhat stupid not to take advantage of what they have as a business with a need for profit. In this regard, I'm not sure my ideals now either match with either side (to call it sides) of the fanbase or IS. So perhaps 'out-of-touch' wasn't the best phrase to use, but I hope you get what I mean.

While your philosophy is enlightening and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, my personal feeling is that the end result is one and the same; I will stop playing new Fire Emblem games. While I don't begrudge the new fans, they would also have plenty of media they could enjoy instead. It's not a stretch to say those who have played the games for years would miss the FE series more. In the end, there's no point in complaining about it or taking it out on the new fans, I just have to hope the new game will be to my liking. Or just play hacks, I guess.

no bother m8 just send me all your money, I'll get it out to you

Yeah, my view that either IS or FE doesn't owe anything to me which is why I understood their decision to follow along from Awakening yet still saw how it might leave its older fans out in the cold. Otherwise, I agree.

pls sign my petition to bring fe back to its roots

Edited January 20, 2015 by Tryhard

[Refa]

pls sign my petition to bring fe back to its roots

Don't worry, there's bound to be another FE1 remake eventually.

In the style of Awakening.

[Thor Odinson]

wrt weight thing

I don't really care whether or not we have weight/con/etc since I'll strategise around what I have for each given game. However, should it return, I want the distributions to be balanced better and for god sakes please make more than like, 2 female units with over 7 con in any given game thanks we're not that tiny ffs

And while I understand the female rescue formula is to prevent units Florina from having 20 rescue, but not all women are tiny and should con/rescue return please change the rescue formula to mount-based rather than gender based because Vaida's 12 con ass should not be riding a dragon 5 sizes smaller than Heath's just because she's a woman

Anyway I don't really care what FE does with its mechanics overall as long as it still plays like a strategy game and is entertaining enough; Having some variety of mechanics every few games ain't so bad.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Florete]

And while I understand the female rescue formula is to prevent units Florina from having 20 rescue, but not all women are tiny and should con/rescue return please change the rescue formula to mount-based rather than gender based because Vaida's 12 con ass should not be riding a dragon 5 sizes smaller than Heath's just because she's a woman

Omg this always bugged the hell out of me.

"Alright, let's get Hector back to the action. Wait, what? Vaida can't rescue him? God damn stupid female mounted con/aid." What's even funnier here is that Vaida wouldn't be able to rescue promoted Hector even with the extra 5 aid.

I didn't really know how to chime in on the weapon weight debate, but I would like the mechanic back, at least in some form. It seemed like something that was around to stay and I was pretty surprised to see it gone completely.

[eclipse]

I think he's talking about features that stuck around, because otherwise the Tellius games introduced plenty more than that (as did other FEs).

I would say they introduced the base area where units can support, the player can shop, etc. And weapon forging.

Capturing is listed under FE5, and that never returned!

The shopping at base thing occurred in FE8 (albeit on a couple of chapters like 8 only, IIRC), and I think FE6 had some variant of it. This was in addition to map shops (and those shops were overpriced anyway), so I don't know if that counts. Oh, right, FE9 had base convos, that also featured non-playable characters!

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

FE9 introduced Fixed Mode.

FE10 introduced universal supports (literally, anyone can support anyone else).

And, uhhh. . .FE1 introduced the damn series, and FE3 introduced items that influence stat growths (off the top of my head).

Moreover FE10 intodruced the "legdes"-feature. If you attack from an upper platform you'll get +2 might and +50% hit. If you attack from a lower platform, you'll lose 50% hit. At least I'm pretty sure it didn't exist before.

A very nice feature tbh.

Edited January 20, 2015 by The Taninator

[Luchi]

Once upon a time, FE was a wonderful niche series beloved for its challenging gameplay, memorable characters and a decent plot. Now it caters to the masses, makes idiots out of people ( waifu-wars, fetish fuel, shipping wars etc. ) where it has been watered down ( gameplay AND story-wise ) to cater for a 'wider audience'.

*sigh*

Yes, it has taken a step in the wrong direction. Look what happened to Final Fantasy, after all...

Edited January 20, 2015 by Luchino

[RedEyedDrake]

Well, that is what, as a rule, happens when you try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, instead of raising it, just for the sake of easy money. Though, considering the state of the franchise before Awakening, this might actually be the one time where it is forgivable. It will all depend on where FE14 goes from here.