Should Third Tier Promotions Return?

[Ownagepuffs]

I don't see the draw aside from maybe even more broken skills, stat inflation, and leveling up than we had in Awakening, and even with extra unique skills it still feels too similar to be included alongside reclassing.

Infinite reclassing itself isn't the biggest issue. Infinite leveling is. I wouldn't mind seeing a lack of reclassing in If, though.

I feel the burning desire to squash this infinite leveling nonsense.

There is a finite amount of exp within the main game. Grinding is cost prohibitive (it literally costs almost as much as a medium bullion) on hard/L/L+ and on Lunatic mode/ L+ the risen skirmishes are far more powerful than your units at any given time. Second seals resetting levels are put in place to allow first gen units to keep up with the statistical requirements to function on higher difficulties. Normal mode is retarded enough to not even need grinding, and reeking boxes are still not costly. The starting myrmidons literally do no damage to an unpaired Chrom for the love of god.

In which scenario is infinite leveling a problem? After someone has spent too much time in Exponential Growth/Lost Bloodlines 3?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Knight Falchion]

I feel the burning desire to squash this infinite leveling nonsense.

There is a finite amount of exp within the main game. Grinding is cost prohibitive (it literally costs almost as much as a medium bullion) on hard/L/L+ and on Lunatic mode/ L+ the risen skirmishes are far more powerful than your units at any given time. Second seals resetting levels are put in place to allow first gen units to keep up with the statistical requirements to function on higher difficulties. Normal mode is retarded enough to not even need grinding, and reeking boxes are still not costly. The starting myrmidons literally do no damage to an unpaired Chrom for the love of god.

In which scenario is infinite leveling a problem? After someone has spent too much time in Exponential Growth/Lost Bloodlines 3?

Y'know what, fair enough, I was wrong in that regard. I was only thinking of Normal/Hard when I made that statement, and like you said, it's not really an issue on Normal at all. So consider that particular nonsense squashed, haha. That being said, I think that inclusion of third tiers, especially if it were to be alongside reclassing, would necessitate the kind of grinding that "infinite leveling" implies, and I personally am not up for that.

Personally, I'm not that excited about the prospect of third tiers returning, if only because you'd need the game to be rather long to justify three class tiers... which I doubt will be the case with this game.

Also this. I doubt if's going to be much longer than Awakening, so there's no need for third tiers when reclassing achieves the same boost in power and is the more familiar system anyways.

[Ownagepuffs]

Y'know what, fair enough, I was wrong in that regard. I was only thinking of Normal/Hard when I made that statement, and like you said, it's not really an issue on Normal at all. So consider that particular nonsense squashed, haha. That being said, I think that inclusion of third tiers, especially if it were to be alongside reclassing, would necessitate the kind of grinding that "infinite leveling" implies, and I personally am not up for that.

Also this. I doubt if's going to be much longer than Awakening, so there's no need for third tiers when reclassing achieves the same boost in power and is the more familiar system anyways.

I apologize for coming off harshly.

[Star and Moon]

I think it would really depend on the length of the game. If it's around 25 chapters (Like Awakening or Shadow Dragon) then it's not necessary, but if there's like 35+ then I guess then it would be good.

[Shadow Mir]

I think it would really depend on the length of the game. If it's around 25 chapters (Like Awakening or Shadow Dragon) then it's not necessary, but if there's like 35+ then I guess then it would be good.

I'm not sure about 35 chapters being enough to justify three class tiers.

Also, another thing I think most people are ignoring is that most of the units you got in RD were second tier already - I'm not sure that this'll be the case with this game...

[NekoKnight]

Also, another thing I think most people are ignoring is that most of the units you got in RD were second tier already - I'm not sure that this'll be the case with this game...

This is something that confuses me, Radiant Dawn was practically speaking a 2 tier system, so what game are people speaking of so highly that contains a 3 tier system?

[Knight Falchion]

I apologize for coming off harshly.

No harm done, so you're fine.

@NekoKnight's above post because I'm bad at this: I'm not entirely sure. It seems like a lot of people liked the designs and overall cool factor of the third tier units back, which I suppose is understandable, and I'm probably missing something else.

Edited March 8, 2015 by The Legendary Falchion

[Masadeer]

how 3rd tier changes things:

-Mist. frail ass staffer. Gets a mount. Win. Gets Sol(which makes her relatively threatening, I guess? Definitely not the frail cleric, but she ain't no Haar<or jill for that matter>)... better but .... meh.

-Archers can shoot 3 spaces without a long bow!!< (Though I did love collecting long bows, and was kind of sad when they became useless)

-Ike gets an iconic move

-Reavers and Sentinels give the term "spin to win" a whole new meaning.

-Laura will max mag very soon.

-meg, fiona, and taureno get a cape. <michaiha's is a cloak> (100% certain i'm missing a ton of people who get capes, but I only care about the dawn brigade. Something about raising the low level but high potential guys really gets to me.)

-Statuses, I wonder why statuses weren't in awakening. They'd have really helped me out in lunatic...........

JACKETS, EVERYONE GETS AWESOME COATS. I WANT ONE TOO. GIVE ME ONE!!!!

[Ownagepuffs]

This is something that confuses me, Radiant Dawn was practically speaking a 2 tier system, so what game are people speaking of so highly that contains a 3 tier system?

Dawn Brigade.

[Shadow Mir]

how 3rd tier changes things:

-Mist. frail ass staffer. Gets a mount. Win. Gets Sol(which makes her relatively threatening, I guess? Definitely not the frail cleric, but she ain't no Haar<or jill for that matter>)... better but .... meh.

-Archers can shoot 3 spaces without a long bow!!< (Though I did love collecting long bows, and was kind of sad when they became useless)

-Ike gets an iconic move

-Reavers and Sentinels give the term "spin to win" a whole new meaning.

-Laura will max mag very soon.

-meg, fiona, and taureno get a cape. <michaiha's is a cloak> (100% certain i'm missing a ton of people who get capes, but I only care about the dawn brigade. Something about raising the low level but high potential guys really gets to me.)

-Statuses, I wonder why statuses weren't in awakening. They'd have really helped me out in lunatic...........

JACKETS, EVERYONE GETS AWESOME COATS. I WANT ONE TOO. GIVE ME ONE!!!!

Longbows are useless in RD even before you consider the Marksman class, unfortunately. . . (Shit accuracy even before the acc penalty at 3 range? No thank you.)

Also, statuses would've helped the enemy as much if not more so, so that's more of a wash.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Radiant head]

This is something that confuses me, Radiant Dawn was practically speaking a 2 tier system, so what game are people speaking of so highly that contains a 3 tier system?

RD had plenty of characters that started at Tier 1, so "practically" is an exaggeration.

[NekoKnight]

Dawn Brigade.

RD had plenty of characters that started at Tier 1, so "practically" is an exaggeration.

10 characters out of 73 playable ones. And of those characters, most were horribly under-leveled and outclassed by the time you could use them again. I'm not saying a 3 tiered system would be impossible to work, just that Radiant Dawn isn't a great example.

Edited March 8, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Radiant head]

10 characters out of 73 playable ones. And of those characters, most were horribly under-leveled and outclassed by the time you could use them again. I'm not saying a 3 tiered system would be impossible to work, just that Radiant Dawn isn't a great example.

The reason they're under leveled is because they had low availability. RD had a balance issue by giving the tier 2 characters that were on Ike's team more chapters to grow than the tier 1 characters on Micaiah's team. It takes you the 9 chapters of Part 1 to get those characters to tier 2. But after that, they only have 3 or so chapters to go from tier 2 to tier 3. But the fact is, it is possible to raise those tier 1 characters all the way up, and in fact it's recommended to do so with Jill.

So if you had tier 1 characters that had more chapters to grow than they did in this game, there's no reason why hitting tier 3 would be unreasonable. RD is a bad example of how to handle the tier 3 in of itself because it doesn't balance tier 1 characters properly, but it gives you enough demonstration that it can work.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Radiant head

[Shadow Mir]

Either way, I still have my doubts about a third class tier being able to be implemented well in this game because there's bound to be more tier 1 units than in RD. That, plus game length becomes an issue as stated before..

Edited March 8, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Ownagepuffs]

10 characters out of 73 playable ones. And of those characters, most were horribly under-leveled and outclassed by the time you could use them again. I'm not saying a 3 tiered system would be impossible to work, just that Radiant Dawn isn't a great example.

Most of everyone was outclassed. Availability was a bigger issue than anything, but the tiered system worked fine.

[KMT4ever]

Personally I feel that third-tier classes would only work for a long, linear game like RD, with third-tier enemies included especially. In a comparatively short free-world game like Awakening it just makes things too complicated. As for which I would like to see, third tiers give me more of a feeling of progression. Watching Edward and Nolan go from Myrmidon and Fighter to Trueblade and Reaver over the course of the game was awesome. With reclassing in Awakening tiers don't feel like they mean anything.

What could be done is to have each tier 1 class branch-promote, giving each tier 2 class a relatively powerful skill, then giving tier 3 classes powerful occult skills that are locked to their associated classes. Tier 3 units also cannot reclass to another Tier 3 class. They have to take a step down to tier 2, then go back up. This makes the third tier of classes relatively final. You can spend time gathering up a lot of tier 2 skills, but you will be underpowered compared to tier 3 units until you promote.

[NekoKnight]

What could be done is to have each tier 1 class branch-promote, giving each tier 2 class a relatively powerful skill, then giving tier 3 classes powerful occult skills that are locked to their associated classes. Tier 3 units also cannot reclass to another Tier 3 class. They have to take a step down to tier 2, then go back up. This makes the third tier of classes relatively final. You can spend time gathering up a lot of tier 2 skills, but you will be underpowered compared to tier 3 units until you promote.

Radiant Dawn had the powerful occult skills and they were pretty much just guaranteed kills for every class, regardless of their flavor. The main point of contention I have with three tiers is that 2nd tier characters already do enough. The 4 skills they get (without reclassing) is enough. Most classes having access to two weapon types is enough.

[Florete]

Despite RD being my favorite FE, I don't think the 3-tier system should return. RD was set up much differently as it is, and even there, the system was far from perfect. Ultimately, I don't think it would add enough to any future FE to be worth implementing, and if they keep Awakening's re-class and branched promotions system (which is much better), it'll make things over-complicated.

how 3rd tier changes things:

-Mist. frail ass staffer. Gets a mount. Win. Gets Sol(which makes her relatively threatening, I guess? Definitely not the frail cleric, but she ain't no Haar<or jill for that matter>)... better but .... meh.

-Ike gets an iconic move

These have nothing to do with the 3-tier system and are essentially unchanged from PoR. Edited March 9, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[KMT4ever]

Despite RD being my favorite FE, I don't think the 3-tier system should return. RD was set up much differently as it is, and even there, the system was far from perfect. Ultimately, I don't think it would add enough to any future FE to be worth implementing, and if they keep Awakening's re-class and branched promotions system (which is much better), it'll make things over-complicated.

The 3-tier system would need tweaking, especially with the occult skills as mentioned, but it gives me a much greater sense of power than re-classing. Branch promotions are really neat as well though, and I can see how adding a promotion to every tier-2 class could bloat the game.

Part of the issue I have with re-classing is that it breaks down the distinctions between characters. Sigurd as a Sniper and Ike as a Paladin would not feel right, yet that's effectively what you can do in Awakening.

[Florete]

Part of the issue I have with re-classing is that it breaks down the distinctions between characters. Sigurd as a Sniper and Ike as a Paladin would not feel right, yet that's effectively what you can do in Awakening.

I agree, but like it or not, it's the direction Fire Emblem is heading in.

[ckc22]

I agree, but like it or not, it's the direction Fire Emblem is heading in.

Maybe if you locked third tier classes to where it was only available in base class. Still pick up tier 2 skills if you want but you'd probably end up playing most units in their base class tier 3.

[Ownagepuffs]

Part of the issue I have with re-classing is that it breaks down the distinctions between characters. Sigurd as a Sniper and Ike as a Paladin would not feel right, yet that's effectively what you can do in Awakening.

I could've sworn that I've already addressed this point, somewhere in this sub forum.

What makes a character unique is composed of much more than just their class. In the case of Awakening, the entire class set is what makes them unique. Sully is the only character capable of taking Cavalier and Myrmidon skills into Wyvern rider. No other character can do that, thus Sully is unique. This complaint has never made sense to me, especially considering that you oft got units of the same class before.

I've a lot of problems with Awakening, but none of them have to do with the gameplay.

[weso12]

One thing to note is that in order for the first tier characters to even have a remote chance of getting to third tier, the dawn brigade seem to be in a state of "hyper experience" in the dawn brigade chapters, I mean after all in a normal fire emblem game it would probably be impossible to get a unit from Level 4 to level 20/20 in the span of 13 chapters but plenty of people get edward to third tier by the end part of 3

[KMT4ever]

I could've sworn that I've already addressed this point, somewhere in this sub forum.

What makes a character unique is composed of much more than just their class. In the case of Awakening, the entire class set is what makes them unique. Sully is the only character capable of taking Cavalier and Myrmidon skills into Wyvern rider. No other character can do that, thus Sully is unique. This complaint has never made sense to me, especially considering that you oft got units of the same class before.

I've a lot of problems with Awakening, but none of them have to do with the gameplay.

Gameplay-wise I understand that, but I'm talking story-wise. I'll use Cherche as an example. The vast majority of her supports involve her wyvern Minerva. Would that make sense if she was a cleric or valkyrie? Would Guy and Karel make sense in-story as myrmidons obsessed with improving their sword skills if they were wyvern riders in-game?

One thing to note is that in order for the first tier characters to even have a remote chance of getting to third tier, the dawn brigade seem to be in a state of "hyper experience" in the dawn brigade chapters, I mean after all in a normal fire emblem game it would probably be impossible to get a unit from Level 4 to level 20/20 in the span of 13 chapters but plenty of people get edward to third tier by the end part of 3

The thing is that you're probably only going to be using a few units from the DB, so you give them all of the Part 1 experience. I only use Micaiah (duh), Edward, Nolan, and Jill, so the latter 3 are usual around level 4 on tier 2 by the endgame. Then all of the laguz in their Part 3 chapters provide a mountain of EXP, so they end that part around level 18 on tier 2. From there it's really easy to jump to tier 3 with all of the Order enemies about.

[Knife]

No. I was already confused enough when there were 3 levels of horses