The ever popular debate...

[Loki Laufeyson]

It is chapter 21 and yeah, the whole blood pact deal didn't come out of nowhere I was a bit irritated in how the Ravens were dragged into it (this is coming from someone who doesn't like Naesala even), but they made his motivations confusing to me (in both games not even just RD). I know deep down he does care but still..

I feel like Naesala's motives were clear. He really wanted to further his ambitions as a ruler, and his reasons for doing that is so he can fuck Begnion's senate five ways to friday. He had to do it in order to look like he was following orders. He finds a loophole eventually, that acting on the Apostle's orders is also the same as adhering to the pact. (RD) Before Leanne was in the picture though, Naesala was kinda scattering his fucks to the winds and letting shit just happen. Once Leanne is found, hes like "omfg...My fucks! There they are. I might need those..."

Didn't Sanaki say since PoR that she'd never heard the voice of the goddess and just assumed she was too young? It's subtle, but it's something.

She says this in Radiant Dawn and in the latter portions of it. After she tries to sing the galdr of release. Its kinda not hinted she couldnt up until that point. The only shred of foreshadowing of that we get, is Micaiah feeling wonky after Rafiel sings for Muarim in Part 1.

I'm not denying it coming from somewhere, I'm saying the idea is dumb.

Speaking of this, I've always wondered how someone like Naesala who builds a reputation of being really cunning would be tricked into signing a blood pact. At least with Pelleas, we know he was naive to a fault. (Although I also wonder how Jill, Zihark, and Tauraneo, etc. didn't recognize Izuka from PoR).

Naesala wasnt the king that signed the Kilvas blood pact. Tibarn asks Naesala "How about the secret about how you became successor to Kilvas." Naesala says "Sure, when this war is over, maybe i'll tell you." This is Naesala hinting that Begnion is responsible and he intends to shit disturb pretty hard. Lekain's story really points to it being a previous ruler. The portrait that is displayed when he tells the tale is not Naesala. Naesala's reputation is not unfounded.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Loki Laufeyson

[Sol Hiryu]

Micaiah is a decent character, just not a very well written one. It's mostly the game's subpar writing and pacing that exacerbates her already precarious characterization, which culminates at the final part of the game where it just goes off the rails.

To be honest, it was the game's attempt to make Daein sympathetic in light of the last game that rankles me, considering that it goes so far to handwave and/or retcon certain things just so it can further glorify Daein's cause. Micaiah herself was fairly okay in this part, but she did some extremely dumbass things that she wasn't called out on--or if she was, it was half-hearted and never brought up again (leaving camp to go in a dark forest by yourself? In hostile territory? And then letting the enemy commander leave?). I'm more surprised that she didn't realize that she was possibly making things worse for Pelleas considering the soldiers all rallied behind her, but I'll give her a pass on that one.

I'll admit that I did enjoy part 3's deconstruction of her character, and it shows the lengths she would go to to keep her country safe. But the deconstruction doesn't go far enough--as we see in both this part and the next, she never actually has to pay for the consequences of her actions. Sothe's near-death was the wake up call, but it probably would have been better for her character if he actually had been killed off. This is probably the biggest issue people have with her, as she gets off completely scot-free for whatever she did thanks to her status as Yune's vessel and Queen of Daein.

For all the things the game did well (The whole Crimean subplot and the war against Begnion), it completely bungled everything about Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade, and as a result, the fandom doesn't tend to think much of her.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Sol Hiryu

[Radiant head]

Yeah exactly, she should have had more consequences for her actions in Part 3.

On a less serious note, I was disappointed when Ulki caught Sothe.

[blah the Prussian]

For me, the most damning evidence against her is that she is never called out on what an idiotic thing it was to give Daein independence without any supervision. Despite the fact that they were technically forced into fighting the Laguz, you don't see many Daein troops complaining. They throw around sub human quite liberally. It would be like if the allies, right after Nazi Germany was defeated, simply allowed every war criminal to go free and didn't supervise it's politics at all. This is not Godwin's law because Ashnard's Daein is modeled on Nazi Germany. Also, she essentially releases the equivalent of the Waffen SS from their well deserved punishment.

[Sol Hiryu]

Given that she didn't seem to realize that her own soldiers were being extremely prejudiced against Tormod's group until the end of part one, it would seem to indicate that holding things together for the greater good (Daein's independence) took priority over their own feelings, which is again emphasized in part three with her hesitance about the war.

To be fair, exactly who would supervise Daein? Crimea certainly couldn't, not with the political state they were in. Begnion just signed a reparation treaty with them, and with them being their suzerain, some form of supervision is automatically assumed (although unwelcome). Under these conditions, Daein is effectively free to do as they wish. You can't exactly call Micaiah out on this one given the way Begnion was handling things.

This whole issue ties back into my last post, specifically the part about trying to forcefully show Daein in a sympathetic light. Part three shows just how mired in the old ways Daein still is, and the game never actually addresses or tries to call attention to it. It's the epilogue that just makes me shake my head, because Micaiah manages to extract a promise from Sanaki to treat Daein like an equal and to forgive all transgressions, essentially.

[FrostyFireMage]

It'd be a lie if I said Micaiah didn't have any typical Mary Sue traits, but compared to every other lord/main character in the FE series (and hell, even some regular units) she's pretty tame. The poor plot of Radiant Dawn doesn't do her any favors at all.

Ephraim, Roy and Ike are much more Sueish/Stuish in their actions/abilities but no-one seems to care. It's a sad fact that female characters are much more likely to have the Sue label thrown at them.

[Sunwoo]

I think Sol Hiryu basically hit every problem I have with Micaiah in Radiant Dawn. Thanks for that, man.

Even though I don't think Micaiah is a Mary Sue anymore (and I've started to appreciate her a little bit), I still feel that she either gets away with certain things she shouldn't have, or certain issues involving her aren't delved into detail so that it looks like she gets away with them. EDIT: Also, poor writing and/or not enough time devoted to developing characters in RD doesn't help her or the Dawn Brigade either.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Sunwoo

[blah the Prussian]

Given that she didn't seem to realize that her own soldiers were being extremely prejudiced against Tormod's group until the end of part one, it would seem to indicate that holding things together for the greater good (Daein's independence) took priority over their own feelings, which is again emphasized in part three with her hesitance about the war.

To be fair, exactly who would supervise Daein? Crimea certainly couldn't, not with the political state they were in. Begnion just signed a reparation treaty with them, and with them being their suzerain, some form of supervision is automatically assumed (although unwelcome). Under these conditions, Daein is effectively free to do as they wish. You can't exactly call Micaiah out on this one given the way Begnion was handling things.

This whole issue ties back into my last post, specifically the part about trying to forcefully show Daein in a sympathetic light. Part three shows just how mired in the old ways Daein still is, and the game never actually addresses or tries to call attention to it. It's the epilogue that just makes me shake my head, because Micaiah manages to extract a promise from Sanaki to treat Daein like an equal and to forgive all transgressions, essentially.

Micaiah has a responsibility as a general to make sure her men do not do something stupid. If she fails to do this, what they do is on her head if punishment is not given. This is called the Yamashita standard, and it dates back to World War Two. The fact that Daein was treated badly by Bengion does not change the fact that the perpetrators of some of the most heinous crimes in Fire Emblem history (The Laguz Genocide) were never brought to justice. Hell, she used the Daein equivalent of Joseph Mengele as an aid, and she never once gets called out on it. The Daein troops who were in the camps were getting their just desserts for their actions. If the majority of the Daein commanders fought in the Mad King's war, then it is safe to assume that the majority of them are fascist, genocidal Nazi analogues. Even if Micaiah is queen, if most of the army is for attacking the Laguz, it will happen. Historically, Japan's Emperor Hirohito was revered as a god, but it took two atomic bombs for him to be able to get Japan to end a war that he didn't want it to enter. Bengion, with a non corrupt leader, would make a great occupier. Hell, it might be safer just to annex Daein outright (no significant cultural differences; Daein only got independence in the first place because of Feudalism.)

[Dandragon]

Mary Sue is not a god damn legitimate or meaningful criticism.

[-Cynthia-]

Micaiah has a responsibility as a general to make sure her men do not do something stupid. If she fails to do this, what they do is on her head if punishment is not given. This is called the Yamashita standard, and it dates back to World War Two. The fact that Daein was treated badly by Bengion does not change the fact that the perpetrators of some of the most heinous crimes in Fire Emblem history (The Laguz Genocide) were never brought to justice. Hell, she used the Daein equivalent of Joseph Mengele as an aid, and she never once gets called out on it. The Daein troops who were in the camps were getting their just desserts for their actions. If the majority of the Daein commanders fought in the Mad King's war, then it is safe to assume that the majority of them are fascist, genocidal Nazi analogues. Even if Micaiah is queen, if most of the army is for attacking the Laguz, it will happen. Historically, Japan's Emperor Hirohito was revered as a god, but it took two atomic bombs for him to be able to get Japan to end a war that he didn't want it to enter. Bengion, with a non corrupt leader, would make a great occupier. Hell, it might be safer just to annex Daein outright (no significant cultural differences; Daein only got independence in the first place because of Feudalism.)

Historically, Begnion has also been terrible towards the laguz (Begnion senators lied so that Begnion citizens would do the Serenes Massacre, they started the practice of laguz slavery etc.) When Begnion occupied Daein even with a "non-corrupt" leader, tons of abuses against the Daein citizens occured. Past crimes by some citizens of Daein do not excuse mistreatment of Daein citizens in the present.

Daein under Pelleas had no interest in fighting laguz in Radiant Dawn until Begnion invoked the blood pact. Begnion soldiers seem to have no problem chasing the laguz all the way through Crimea because the senators tell them to, so I'm not seeing a ton of difference here.