Should Casual Return?

[shadowofchaos]

Hey now, remember I said I support casual mode. I'm just offering up a new idea. Easy mode being the only mode without perma-death would fulfill accessibility issues (since newcomers to the series are more likely to play easy mode first; newcomers who choose a higher difficulty would probably choose Classic mode anyway) while keeping the series staple of perma-death as a part of increased difficulty. There are legitimate reasons for people to not like the existence of casual mode, but I feel this does a pretty good job of getting the best of both worlds.

I apologize for my tone. The latter part of my post wasn't directed at you, and it's my fault for failing to make that clear. As for Irysa's opinion, I can see where they're coming from... but from my observations here and in other places the majority of the opposition to Casual mode simply stems from hostility to change. It's literally bellyaching that people who get into FE via casual mode with their "less legit strategy" are somehow less of fans than people who stuck through permadeath. It's simply just being a jerk and wanting to elevate themselves above those newcomers. It strikes a nerve because I happen to have 6 friends that got into the series simply because of casual mode, and it insults me that people are indirectly implying that the option attracting new people on the series is a bad thing. It's. An. Option. This is why I'm emotionally invested and will freaking White Knight the option of Casual Mode to hell.

"There are legitimate reasons for people to not like the existence of casual mode, but I feel this does a pretty good job of getting the best of both worlds."

Why is it offensive that the option exists, is what I'm getting at. The option to use casual in a higher difficulty is something *I* personally want. Why take that away just because people will *probably* use classic on higher difficulties and force that model upon the player?

Edited February 13, 2015 by shadowofchaos

[Irysa]

I am probably giving people too much benefit of the doubt but I believe that most of those people being hostile about change and asserting superiority are frankly just lacking in the ability to articulate themselves correctly. Being against change of something you're comfortable with isn't really easy to explain if you haven't really thought about it properly. Sure, they're definitely behaving like jerks but I think those feelings of contempt towards something that breaches something they feel is intrinstically valuable are still valid in a sense, they feel as if people playing on casual aren't really getting a Fire Emblem experience.

I mean really, I'm pushing it here so feel free to call me an apologist or w/e, but people often behave like dumbasses about things like this.

[Baldrick]

I'm not against the idea of permadeath itself, but I feel that Fire Emblem simply just does not execute it properly and changing the game in order to do so would create an entirely different series,

You say that as though it's a bad thing... it's happened before, anyway. Gaiden and FE4 were radically different to the games that had come before (as well as Thracia, to some extent). I like it that way; the more varied the games are, the more novelty you get from playing through the series.

[Topaz Light]

Hmm... This is one of those arguments where I can really see both sides to it.

On the one hand, Casual/Newcomer mode is a great way for newer players to ease into the game, and so long as it doesn't replace Classic mode altogether, I generally don't really object to it existing, even if I'm not especially likely to actually use it.

However, I also kinda agree that there is something lost in relieving permadeath of its status as a non-optional gameplay feature. Now, I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to say that what is lost constitutes the entirety of Fire Emblem's identity as a series; I think that would be selling the series' other distinguishing traits and quirks short. However, I do agree that if Casual mode is to be present, there should be some incentive within the game itself to play the game on Classic.

[shadowofchaos]

However, I do agree that if Casual mode is to be present, there should be some incentive within the game itself to play the game on Classic.

My question is, why?

Isn't the legit experience reward enough?

[Baldrick]

If we're going to live with the stress of one wrong move spelling doom for our favourite character, we damn well better get some compensation

Encouraging people who only play Casual to try Classic is a good idea. If they find they don't mind it, it means they are less intimidated by the earlier games and so become more hooked on the series.

[Topaz Light]

My question is, why?

Isn't the legit experience reward enough?

Because, hmm... How to word this...

Sort of the same principle as why you get items, characters, even sidequests, etc., for saving villages. Sure, even if you got nothing of gameplay consequence, you'd still probably feel a little fuzzy inside for a second knowing that you saved the lives of those fictional innocents, but otherwise it's largely a self-imposed challenge to save them since you wouldn't actually technically lose anything for not doing it. However, you do get items for it. Even if it's technically optional to do, the game still rewards you for taking on the harder challenge.

Although I suppose by that reasoning, there should also be incentives to play on the higher difficulties.

Ultimately, I'm... not really sure. I just kind of feel like IS said that they hoped players would try the series because of Casual/Newcomer mode, and then move on to Classic, but by making Classic/Casual and Normal/Hard/Lunatic mode selections independent of each other, they made it so that unlocking the ability to play Reverse Lunatic/Lunatic+ on Classic mode is literally the only in-game incentive to play Classic at all, and even that incentive is only likely to affect the super-duper-100% completionists who are probably already playing on Classic anyway.

I guess I feel like, if Classic is to be considered the "legit experience", that you're intended to move on to from Casual, there should actually be some in-game reason to pick it over Casual besides one's own nostalgia.

But keep in mind, this is mostly just a sort of "what I think would be optimal"/"how I would do it"-type statement. I don't take any significant issue with the way it's currently being done, I just feel that the game itself should give you some incentive to try Classic mode, rather than just relying on Fire Emblem's equivalent of genwunners for that push, because they're more likely to get other people to resolve not to play Classic mode out of sheer spite due to how condescending some of them can be about it.

Of course, if a given person is happiest just playing Casual mode, then more power to them, and I hope they enjoy that. Just because I would've designed things differently doesn't mean I can't recognize or appreciate the boons of how IS did choose to design them.

[Irysa]

Because the ideal end result is that new players come to want to attempt classic mode for reasons that don't amount to peer pressure, which manifests in unpleasant ways as you noted earlier. This isn't a question of what experience is "legit" or not, it's about edging players towards one I think that is at the least worth trying. JP FE10 tried to do this with how you got extended script in the higher difficulties (that got bastardised in the localisation because they all used the short script, facepalm).

I think the closest thing FE13 and FE12 have is that you only get Luna+/Luna Reverse Casual if you beat Lunatic on casual but I don't think thats really all that incentivising.

Anyway the precedent is present in plenty of other games anyway. Playing on easy in an RPG like Valkyrie Profile cuts content and blocks you from getting the true ending, Tales of Vesperia you can't get any Grade for the NG+ Grade shop etc.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Irysa

[eclipse]

YES.

Mostly because I want to do some crazy experiments involving sacrificing units, and see how such things affect my strategy. So far, I've had a bit of success with it (currently on a Lunatic/Casual run). Of course, having the series seem less intimidating to newcomers is a huge plus, as well. If IS wants to introduce a new mechanic, why not take advantage of it?

HOWEVER. . .the first game where permadeath was somewhat suspended was FE7's Lyn Mode. Even if you killed off someone ('sides Lyn), they'd come back later.

[DeadGame]

Eh, people are too wreckless whenever they don't feel any pressure of possibly losing a unit. Not that I really care, I'll just keep never using it.

On a personal note, however, I'm not a huge fan of all these new fans to the series that despise the older games for not having this option

while thinking FE is supposed to be like a JRPG, having easy gameplay and higher focus on the story.. don't need those people at all.

That's why I wouldn't mind IS not putting it in the game again.

Edited February 13, 2015 by FierceRagnar

[Sunwoo]

I've been trying to get my friends into FE for quite some time, but they didn't really want to. At least three of them have Awakening and still enjoy it, and when I asked them about it I found that casual mode is one of the major factors for it. As someone who can get around FE just fine, I'll pick classic mode if I want to. But other players shouldn't have to be turned off because of permadeath. Since they implemented a casual mode in the previous game, I don't think it should be removed.

[XeKr]

I can never tell if the the "win button" and "skip mode" arguments are serious or not. Selectable modes must be deliberately programmed and inserted to appeal to some audience. The entertainment and financial factor from such trivial additions is completely negligible.

Casual mode is not negligible. Many (many) people may enjoy it, from Normal/Casual to Lunatic+/Casual. It adds something for many players while detrimenting nothing objectively substantial to others. (besides irrational reactions, "stop liking what I don't like", etc.)

Edited February 13, 2015 by XeKr

[Magical Glace]

HOWEVER. . .the first game where permadeath was somewhat suspended was FE7's Lyn Mode. Even if you killed off someone ('sides Lyn), they'd come back later.

Lyn mode was a tutorial. The dead units did stay dead until the end of said tutorial and come back to help out the now somewhat experienced players for plot reasons.

[DeadGame]

Also, in case Casual Mode makes a return, they should still punish players for it. The green mark of cowardness on Awakening's file select screen was pretty funny, hehe.

[Kirie]

I'm all for Casual Mode coming back, though I would never play it myself. I tried to get my husband to play FE a few years ago before we were married, and permadeath really turned him off. I got him to play again with FE:A thanks to Casual; he really enjoyed the game, and it gave us plenty of opportunities to discuss things like differences in strategy when you can't sacrifice units, etc. I do kind of rib him a bit for playing the "easy version" which is extra funny since he's better than me at pretty much all of the other games were both play, but he takes it in good stride. I'd like to think that he'll ween himself off of it once he's played enough games to understand the strategies a bit more, and then I can maybe convince him to give some of the older games a try too, but we'll see. If FEif has a Casual mode and hubby plays that mode, I'll likely tease him some more, but if it's not there, he'll probably just pass on the game and let me play it by myself. I would hate to see my husband, and potential other FE fans as well, turned off of the new game by the removal of a feature that was likely helpful in FE gaining the acceptance that has let it continue as a franchise.

[Baldrick]

@FierceRagnar: Take your elitist BS somewhere else, please.

@Kirie: If I could ask a personal question, has he improved much since he started playing? I know I struggled a lot when I first played FE7, but when I played HNM I had some idea of what not to do and was dying less often.

[DeadGame]

@FierceRagnar: Take your elitist BS somewhere else, please.

It's no "BS", though. It's how I think about it. :P

[Kirie]

@Kirie: If I could ask a personal question, has he improved much since he started playing? I know I struggled a lot when I first played FE7, but when I played HNM I had some idea of what not to do and was dying less often.

Yes, he has! He even did a "challenge" run (to him) of playing the game with just Chrom and the Avatar and not using anyone else. But the concept of having to restart an entire chapter just because someone dies still feels like too steep of a punishment to him, so he's still staying away from Classic mode for now.

[Gradivus.]

you don't "have to" restart the chapter if a unit dies, only if you want to maintain survival. tell him he should at least try CLA to realize that it isn't that hard to make units survive.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I never have played casual mode in FE12 and 13, because it's no FE for me.

It was a trademark of this franchise that fallen characters won't ever return in this game. However there are very few exceptions.

Casual mode should make the entrance easier for newcomers. Though I don't think it was necessary. FE7 tutorial was a really good counterexample.

However if the intention of casual mode only is to make difficulties like lunatic + more bearable for the player, then Intelligent Systems has failed. It doesn't have to deal with strategy anymore.

Casual mode can still exist, but only on lowest difficulty.

Edited February 13, 2015 by The Taninator

[Baldrick]

tbf no-reset is a lot harder if you're inexperienced, and it's not that common even here. While removing Casual mode entirely is a bad idea, I still think a "save anywhere" mode would be a good stepping stone into classic, if a unit dies you don't have to start the whole chapter again, and you'll learn what strategies and formations work through trial and error.

[Nobody]

I don't care if casual mode stays or goes away. As long as classic mode is still there, i'm fine.

That said, i do think the lack of permadeath makes FE an almost different game, since you don't have to come up with good strategies (i.e. No one dying) in order to beat chapters and that's, imo, very boring, but who am i to tell others how to play the game?

[Kirie]

you don't "have to" restart the chapter if a unit dies, only if you want to maintain survival. tell him he should at least try CLA to realize that it isn't that hard to make units survive.

Oh, I've certainly talked to him about it and tried to get him into it, but for now he's just not interested, and I don't really care all that much how he plays so long as he enjoys himself.

[feplus]

That's a nice slippery slope you got there. Can I bring my sled?

It's a slippery slope argument, not a slippery slope fallacy. Perfectly fair to ask why some accessibility options are acceptable (Casual Mode) while other accessibility options are not acceptable (the mock mode list I provided).

The word "elitist" is getting thrown around in this thread. It's a vacuous buzzword, a way to silence differing views and stifle conversation. It's not a matter of difficulty; it's a matter of design.

Take the Wii platformer Kirby's Epic Yarn. You can't die; enemies are slow and predictable; bosses are a breeze. By all accounts a very easy game. Yet this ease of play was intentional: it contributes to the game's relaxing feel and improves the experience. An optional hard mode with pixel-perfect jumps and one-hit deaths would be entirely out of place.

I see nothing elitist about suggesting optional content that jars with design is better off excluded. Not a popular opinion here, but a reasonable perspective that's more prevalent within game design circles.

[Topazd]

I see nothing elitist about suggesting optional content that jars with design is better off excluded. Not a popular opinion here, but a reasonable perspective that's more prevalent within game design circles.

I'm going to have to agree with this. I'm not going to deny that the standard FE type of gameplay is something I get very emotionally attached to and defensive about (even if not for any particularly good reason), but I do honestly think Casual mode is better left out.

Though I'd be somewhat satisfied with the alternative that Casual mode be included whilst being a 'bare bones' version of the Classic mode, and playing Classic was actively advocated. But ideally, the easiest available mode would already be easy enough for new players to get into without the inclusion of gimmicks such as Casual.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Topazd255