The Reason for the Problems With Awakening

[Irysa]

Oh please. Inside three minutes of posting, I had someone on my nuts offering up Tellius as an example of rich story/characterization. Fire Emblem Reality Distortion Field is as strong as ever.

FE9 does stand out compared to most of the rest of the games in terms of it's narrative and characterisation though. Even as far as videogames go, it's definitely above average in that department.

Awakening delivers an entertaining, emotional roller coaster ride of a story. That's already beyond what can reasonably be expected from a game in this franchise. It's not a failing of the game if it can't stir the feels of a cynic, or of someone who can't suspend their disbelief. You're off the reservation as soon as you start talking about the "cohesiveness" of its story, just like if someone takes issue with the realism of the weapon triangle.

Er, what? The actual moment to moment flow of the narrative is simply jilted in many instances, I'm not complaining about realism of the plot or anything. You don't have to hyperanalyze the game whilst playing it for the first time to feel a bit out of the loop with the Valm arc, since the game doesn't really give you any information on what Walhart's purpose or motives even are. Comparably Gangrel and Validar, whilst far from complex antagonists, have the bare modicum of development required to understand what you're even fighting against, and are presented frequently throughout the cutscenes in the game, even when none of your characters are around. The enemy Valmese and Walhart are just kinda a mystery until the end of the arc. This wouldn't neccessarily be a bad thing if the arc didn't go on for such a significant amount of time without really delving into this at all, and there's a somewhat hurried attempt to exposition dump towards the end. This is quite the opposite of what the series tends to do, because antagonists who are meant to be notable are portrayed as notable in some manner or other throughout the game. The entire Valm arc kind of just feels like a dragged out filler segment or something. Something like Anri's Way I suppose, except it goes on twice as long. :\

Or the entire Gemstone stuff in 23. I still don't really understand what went on there, because Validar's plan apparently hinged on the Fire Emblem with all the Gemstones in it to ressurect Grima, but then the Gemstones are apparently fake, but then Future Grima brings back Grima anyway? And then the game just moves on from that like it never contradicted itself?

You know, after a certain number of examples something stops being an exception and starts indicating a trend.

Oh I agree. There was a trend that primarily started in FE12's remake only content that definitely continues in Awakening. But still, out of the games in the franchise I've played, most of them actually have pretty well contained stories and substories, all things considered. Very much unambitious yes. I actually don't hold Awakening's narrative in contempt like Delphi Sage does because what it aimed to do was rather ambitious compared to previous games, and I can respect that, even if it didn't really nail it or anything. Radiant Dawn is kinda the same, I don't feel that Awakening's is really massively worse than it when it comes to the overall plot either. They're quite similar in many respects actually, pretty well developed introduction arc or two, then a really dragged out poorly defined middle section rounded out by some deus ex machinas at the end.

Regardless, I'm quite comfortable saying that Awakening's narrative has plenty of high points, I do like the game and I like parts of the plot. But I do recognise there are problems (not unique to it, or the franchise) and I think the way people such as yourself handwave those problems stifles discussion and holds back potential far more than the people actually complaining. I have many criticisms about FE10's plot as well, I'm not trying to pick on FE13 or anyting here.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

I'll note that the Grima being resurrected anyway thing kinda reminds me of the end of FE7. Nergal opens the Dragon's Gate at the end somehow without Ninian/Nils and without gathering enough quintessence(he used most of it on the morphs beforehand).

[Radiant head]

For example, Cordelia being a pettanko.

I swear, everyday I learn new anime jargon on this forum.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I'll note that the Grima being resurrected anyway thing kinda reminds me of the end of FE7. Nergal opens the Dragon's Gate at the end somehow without Ninian/Nils and without gathering enough quintessence(he used most of it on the morphs beforehand).

with that i just assumed that he used his own life force as he was dying to summon it.

i mean, i always assumed that he could've summoned it with his own quintessence, but he'd die in the process, which would ruin the whole "imma control dragons and rule the world" but as he was dying he went "well if i'm not gonna rule the world then imma give my life energy to screwing it over".

i could be very wrong tho so please don't take this for fact as this is just me taking it at face value.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Or the entire Gemstone stuff in 23. I still don't really understand what went on there, because Validar's plan apparently hinged on the Fire Emblem with all the Gemstones in it to ressurect Grima, but then the Gemstones are apparently fake, but then Future Grima brings back Grima anyway? And then the game just moves on from that like it never contradicted itself?

I got the impression it made a difference in Grima's power level, kinda like how Lucina only got her hands on a partially-powered Falchion because she didn't have all the gems. So with just the Fire Emblem, it worked, but no gems meant a junky half-assed ritual—and a Grima weak enough to be taken down by people.

I'll note that the Grima being resurrected anyway thing kinda reminds me of the end of FE7. Nergal opens the Dragon's Gate at the end somehow without Ninian/Nils and without gathering enough quintessence(he used most of it on the morphs beforehand).

Wasn't the quintessence for controlling the dragons? It is weird that he was able to open the gate without Ninian or Nils, though.

[Delphi Sage]

Wasn't the quintessence for controlling the dragons? It is weird that he was able to open the gate without Ninian or Nils, though.

He used Ninian's Dragonstone to open the gate at the outro to Chapter 29/31.

Can someone tell me how to cite the records?

[NinjaMonkey]

I don't see what the size of the cast in this game matters to anything. There are about 16 characters in this game that actually matter: Chrom, MU, Lissa, Frederick, Lucina, Emmeryn, Basilio, Flavia, Gangrel, Aversa, Validar, Say'ri, Yen'Fay, Walhart, Excellus, and Yurius.

What does Julius from FE4 have to do with Awakening's cast? Also, doesn't Virion matter to the story, since he was the one who brought up the whole 'Walhart has conquered my country' spiel at the beginning of the Valm arc?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

What does Julius from FE4 have to do with Awakening's cast? Also, doesn't Virion matter to the story, since he was the one who brought up the whole 'Walhart has conquered my country' spiel at the beginning of the Valm arc?

i'm certain it was sarcasm at poking at how some of awakening's plot is simular to FE4's.

but yeah virion really doesn't matter.

[NinjaMonkey]

but yeah virion really doesn't matter.

If we remove Virion from the story, then what reason does Chrom have to go to Valm in the first place? To go sightseeing?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

If we remove Virion from the story, then what reason does Chrom have to go to Valm in the first place? To go sightseeing?

the valm arc is pretty much filler always, sure we got the plot stones that apparently don't matter in the end, but the story could've wrote getting those in another manner then going to valm.

[NinjaMonkey]

the valm arc is pretty much filler always, sure we got the plot stones that apparently don't matter in the end, but the story could've wrote getting those in another manner then going to valm.

If the Valm arc is nothing but filler, then why are Say'ri and Yen'Fey listed as "story-important characters"?

[-Cynthia-]

with that i just assumed that he used his own life force as he was dying to summon it.

i mean, i always assumed that he could've summoned it with his own quintessence, but he'd die in the process, which would ruin the whole "imma control dragons and rule the world" but as he was dying he went "well if i'm not gonna rule the world then imma give my life energy to screwing it over".

i could be very wrong tho so please don't take this for fact as this is just me taking it at face value.

Hmm I guess that could be a plausible explanation of what happened, though it's not stated explicitly. I don't see anything in the script about using Ninian's Dragonstone to open the gate though.

Edited March 21, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

aw shit going back to the virion post, i misread "important as not important" never mind.

Hmm I guess that could be a plausible explanation of what happened, though it's not stated explicitly. I don't see anything in the script about using Ninian's Dragonstone to open the gate though.

as said i'm just guessing myself.

[Knusperkeks]

If we remove Virion from the story, then what reason does Chrom have to go to Valm in the first place? To go sightseeing?

You got it backwards. Chrom doesn't go to Valm because he has nothing better to do, he does so because his tactician ascertains that Ylisse doesn't stand a chance in a war of attrition, which necessitates drastic measures such as burning down the armies' ships which - if they reach the shores of Ylisse - would inevitably lead to it's capitulation and consequently to the end of the world in the long run.

Avatar ignites the fire so it burns furiously and so swiftly that it's fuel is exhausted (quite literally so) before it can cause harm.

Aversa mentions that Grima's plan was to let Chrom succumb to either Plegia or Valm, but against all odds Chrom and the Shepherds managed to victoriously emerge from all conflicts which leads to Grima's imperfect rebirth.

[Saladus]

That was a poor plan. Seeing as how Grima had plenty of time to free his past body while the Valm arc was happening, if not even earlier. Especially since Chrom is such a bad king that he didn't keep a close eye on Plegia.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[Delphi Sage]

*snip*

1: Speak in default font.

2: Why are you overthinking a video game that clearly wouldn't even give the time of day to its own story?

[Saladus]

Also, Chrom should have opened negotiations with the Valmese instead of running off to fight an empire so soon after a war.

[Knusperkeks]

I'm not snipping, I'm typing words, learn to quote properly.

1: Speak in default font.

2: Why are you overthinking a video game that clearly wouldn't even give the time of day to its own story?

1.) Try to force me if you can.

2.) I merely stated the logic with which the games' characters approach their problems, since some people forgot why Chrom goes to war against Valm.

If thats overthinking to you, then I'll try to tone down my level of conversation in an attempt to prevent you from mistaking my posts' contents for something which they are not.

To emphasize: If you had any historical knowledge, you would know that the strategy employed in chapter 14 has been successfully used for thousands of years. It's not overthinking, but real strategy.

[Saladus]

2.) I merely stated the logic with which the games' characters approach their problems, since some people forgot why Chrom goes to war against Valm.

Chrom being a lousy ruler like his sister?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[Knusperkeks]

Chrom being a lousy ruler like his sister?

You can find an answer to that in #164.

[Saladus]

And that's supposed to show he's not a lousy ruler?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[KMT4ever]

Also, Chrom should have opened negotiations with the Valmese instead of running off to fight an empire so soon after a war.

Walhart is not the sort of person that can be negotiated with, as seen very well fighting him. He's called the Conqueror for a reason. Given how in Port Ferox the Valmese start killing civilians it's pretty obvious they're out for blood.

To emphasize: If you had any historical knowledge, you would know that the strategy employed in chapter 14 has been successfully used for thousands of years. It's not overthinking, but real strategy.

Yes to this. Kill them off piecemeal rather than when they can throw every man in their million-strong veteran army at you. This was the strategy for the entire war if you pay attention.

1. Sink their advance force.

2.Capture Fort Steiger, weakest of the three divisions.

3. Defeat Yen'fay while Walhart is occupied up north.

4. Finally move to defeat the Conqueror himself.

If Robin had waited for Valm to come to Ylisse with all of these forces combined no strategy could have saved the day.

As for a real example of this type of strategy, during the War of the Sixth Coalition the anti-French alliance determined to avoid fighting Napoleon personally and to defeat forces commanded by his subordinates until they had amassed a force too big for even him to beat.

[Delphi Sage]

Chrom's ability as a ruler never comes up. All he does is go from place to place, smashing a holy relic into people's faces, claiming he's Marth when he's pretending to be Ike.

When the closest you come to being likable is through an unironic demonstration of the Doomguy Method, not everyone is going to be suckered in.

[-Cynthia-]

After C14(burning the ships), Chrom could have chosen to try and negotiate with Valm or adopt a defensive position. He chose to go over and conquer Valm instead- an interesting point could have been made about this that Chrom is more like his father than Emmeryn but...no one really brings this up.

[Delphi Sage]

After C14(burning the ships), Chrom could have chosen to try and negotiate with Valm or adopt a defensive position. He chose to go over and conquer Valm instead- an interesting point could have been made about this that Chrom is more like his father than Emmeryn but...no one really brings this up.

I blame that on the world map mechanic.