Return of Casual

[Skynstein]

"No effective penalty to letting your units die in Casual" Yeah it's totally fine to lose your healer early on to a missclick and be forced to do the rest of the chapter without him/her. Even in Classic you'd just restart.

Also losing Chrom or Robin is instaloss anyway so it doesn't make a difference.

Will it return: Probably

Do I want it to return: No

The issue with Awakening it was designed from the ground up with Casual in mind.

Never played Casual but I think it's exactly the opposite. If Ricken and Maribelle die on Casual in Ch5 they come back in the next map, which is against the goal of the map (to save them). It's probably the same with Say'ri and other characters you have to protectso they join your team. The game was designed around Classic like always, and Casual was put there as an afterthought, which is unfortunate.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Cerberus87

[BrandedRogue]

I personally think classic is just the 'right' way to play FE, it's been like that and so its simply part of the whole concept of FE. Casual is a nice way to get more people into the series apparently, I started with FE10 and never had an issue with perma-death being too difficult (So I don't understand why you'd need casual to get into the series ;P)

But I think they should make classic the 'true' way of playing, like by doing things as halving the renown gained in casual mode or have better items in chests in classic mode than in casual (steel weapon over an iron weapon or something like that). Or make some of the unlockable true endings classic mode only (the FE10 style, ridiculous requirements, unlockable endings XD)

[goodperson707]

.Why are these "bragging rights" terrible?.

There not of course (maybe i should have added a :) smile) though sometimes it just feels like a certain type of FE player certainly think that they are.

[Jagged Jagen]

Here's something that I don't think has been fully discussed upon. What if the Nohr path was Classic Mode only? Would accessibility still be an issue? I mean it's being marketed as a difficult choice, with limited Gold, limitations on gridning and without a world map. Basically, what I'm saying is, if you're for Casual, would you be ok with its admission from 1 of the 3 paths, and if you're against it, would you be happy to have at least one path be exclusively Classic? I personally would be ok, but just food for thought.

[NekoKnight]

Here's something that I don't think has been fully discussed upon. What if the Nohr path was Classic Mode only? Would accessibility still be an issue? I mean it's being marketed as a difficult choice, with limited Gold, limitations on gridning and without a world map. Basically, what I'm saying is, if you're for Casual, would you be ok with its admission from 1 of the 3 paths, and if you're against it, would you be happy to have at least one path be exclusively Classic? I personally would be ok, but just food for thought.

There are 6 shared chapters so you'd pick casual or classic before the route split. I don't see why they'd arbitrarily remove casual on one game. Why would they be happy with selling just Hoshido to casual players when they could sell Nohr to casual players as well?

[Jagged Jagen]

There are 6 shared chapters so you'd pick casual or classic before the route split. I don't see why they'd arbitrarily remove casual on one game. Why would they be happy with selling just Hoshido to casual players when they could sell Nohr to casual players as well?

What's to say you choose Casual ahead of time? It may very well be Permaretreat for the first 6 chapters Lyn's story style. Also, why would they market Nohr as a challenging route for Veterans if they wanted it to be full on casual?

[arvilino]

What's to say you choose Casual ahead of time? It may very well be Permaretreat for the first 6 chapters Lyn's story style. Also, why would they market Nohr as a challenging route for Veterans if they wanted it to be full on casual?

Probably because they haven't marketed it that way. It has advertised as the more challenging game because of the more intensive campaign with no world map and limited resources, but when did they say Nohr was specifically for veteran players? The option for casual mode doesn't make the game "full on casual", whether casual mode is on or not or it's Normal, Hard or Lunatic mode the Nohr campaign difficulty would still be more challenging than the equivalent Hoshido campaign.

I think it's pretty certain Intelligent Systems want casual players to want to buy and play the Nohr campaign as well even though it's more challenging. It'd be a bit silly for IS not to. The middle and higher difficulties of the Nohr campaign are what should be intended for the veteran players and also the higher difficulties of the Hoshido Campaign without grinding.

Edited April 26, 2015 by arvilino

[Shadow Knight]

I've never played on Casual but I don't really see the point in getting rid of it. its just another choice allowing for further customization and besides, the majority of people just restart a battle when they lose an important character anyways.

[PikaSamus]

I started with Awakening's demo, and played on casual. Lissa died, and I felt like a bad tactician, even though it didn't matter. I played normal/casual multiple times (because I wanted to get Supports, but completing the log is going to take a long time due to requiring a ton of different playthroughs to get all S supports).

Fire Emblem then got released on the virtual console, and I loved it. All subsequent playthroughs of Awakening (id est two) were played on hard/classic, and I felt like I was a better player due to "graduating" from casual.

I want casual to be kept for new players like me, but I do wish for them to "graduate" to classic eventually so they can become better at strategic thinking.

[Jedi]

Probably because they haven't marketed it that way. It has advertised as the more challenging game because of the more intensive campaign with no world map and limited resources, but when did they say Nohr was specifically for veteran players? The option for casual mode doesn't make the game "full on casual", whether casual mode is on or not or it's Normal, Hard or Lunatic mode the Nohr campaign difficulty would still be more challenging than the equivalent Hoshido campaign.

I think it's pretty certain Intelligent Systems want casual players to want to buy and play the Nohr campaign as well even though it's more challenging. It'd be a bit silly for IS not to. The middle and higher difficulties of the Nohr campaign are what should be intended for the veteran players and also the higher difficulties of the Hoshido Campaign without grinding.

With the way the marketing is going, the "darker and edgier" Nohr is gonna sell more copies regardless of "skill" level too.

This is gonna include casual mode for both.

[Crysta]

Wanting players to eventually graduate is one thing.

Suggesting putting obstacles in their way to deliberately strong-arm them into classic is an entirely different thing. Not everyone learns at the same rate nor through the same ways, and it's really to just make you feel more comfortable with it than them.

And if they really don't want to jump to the next stage, you really shouldn't care anyway. Nintendo isn't going to dumb down the game and alienate the ones already loyal to the franchise: it would be stupid to do so, especially when you can just easily appeal to both groups.

Awakening was chock-full of DLC characters from previous titles - a new player wouldn't know how to appreciate that nearly as much as veterans would. That alone tells me they cater more to that branch, they've just given a small bone to the new players and for some reason it's making the older players cry foul and grow paranoid.

Change is scary. I get it. But change is necessary for growth and progress.

[Jagged Jagen]

Awakening was chock-full of DLC characters from previous titles - a new player wouldn't know how to appreciate that nearly as much as veterans would. That alone tells me they cater more to that branch, they've just given a small bone to the new players and for some reason it's making the older players cry foul and grow paranoid.

Fanservice is nice, but it's not the same as catering. It was more than a small bone, Casual Mode, World Map, Grinding, Etc. scream more of attempts to streamline than anything else. A new player may not appreciate the older characters while a vet might, but that's not extra catering. Look at SMT X FE. That game has Tiki, Chrom and others in it, but so much changed that the overall response is negative. Brawl added fan requested characters such as Sonic and Snake into the mix, but the mechanics were changed and the Melee fandom found themselves alienated. If Brawl was catered to Melee fans, it would have been a frantic, fast paced game. If Awakening was catered to vets, it would have Rescue, Fog of War, Map Variety, Objective variety, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I genuinely like Awakening as do I Brawl, but the additional fanservice doesn't quite cater to the fans of the previous installments, it's the mechanics that should.

[Jedi]

Fanservice is nice, but it's not the same as catering. It was more than a small bone, Casual Mode, World Map, Grinding, Etc. scream more of attempts to streamline than anything else. A new player may not appreciate the older characters while a vet might, but that's not extra catering. Look at SMT X FE. That game has Tiki, Chrom and others in it, but so much changed that the overall response is negative. Brawl added fan requested characters such as Sonic and Snake into the mix, but the mechanics were changed and the Melee fandom found themselves alienated. If Brawl was catered to Melee fans, it would have been a frantic, fast paced game. If Awakening was catered to vets, it would have Rescue, Fog of War, Map Variety, Objective variety, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I genuinely like Awakening as do I Brawl, but the additional fanservice doesn't quite cater to the fans of the previous installments, it's the mechanics that should.

Casual mode started in New Mystery, world map was from FE2 which was included as Valm in awakening, FE8 also used a world map I.E Veteran fan service as did Tearring Saga if you wanna go there too.

Your argument is totally invalid.

[Thane]

Fanservice is nice, but it's not the same as catering. It was more than a small bone, Casual Mode, World Map, Grinding, Etc. scream more of attempts to streamline than anything else. A new player may not appreciate the older characters while a vet might, but that's not extra catering. Look at SMT X FE. That game has Tiki, Chrom and others in it, but so much changed that the overall response is negative. Brawl added fan requested characters such as Sonic and Snake into the mix, but the mechanics were changed and the Melee fandom found themselves alienated. If Brawl was catered to Melee fans, it would have been a frantic, fast paced game. If Awakening was catered to vets, it would have Rescue, Fog of War, Map Variety, Objective variety, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I genuinely like Awakening as do I Brawl, but the additional fanservice doesn't quite cater to the fans of the previous installments, it's the mechanics that should.

I'd like to point out that it was Mr. Kojima himself who requested Snake to be added in Brawl. In fact, he wanted Snake in Melee, but that didn't happen due to time constraints, if memory serves.

The "Melee fandom", as you call it, is a large and diverse group; I've played all versions of the Super Smash Bros. series and I think it has steadily improved. I know a lot of features bothered veteran players, myself included, but hardly enough to ruin my enjoyment.

If you're only talking about the pro players, then I'm not sure what to say, considering how few they are in comparison to the rest of the fanbase. Not to mention the same thing could be said about pretty much any game; Starcraft II is considered inferior by some, and there are pros who keep on playing the first game to this day, even though the average player would most likely enjoy Starcraft II more than Starcraft I.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Thane

[Jagged Jagen]

Casual mode started in New Mystery, world map was from FE2 which was included as Valm in awakening, FE8 also used a world map I.E Veteran fan service as did Tearring Saga if you wanna go there too.

Your argument is totally invalid.

New Mystery was never localized, nor was Gaiden and even if they were, I can't say I've seen many singing the praises of Gaiden's world map or New Mystery's Casual Mode. Valm was fanservice, Sacred Stones had a world map, 9-12 didn't. Ever stop to think it stayed out for a reason?

I'd like to point out that it was Mr. Kojima himself who requested Snake to be added in Brawl. In fact, he wanted Snake in Melee, but that didn't happen due to time constraints, if memory serves.

The "Melee fandom", as you call it, is a large and diverse group; I've played all versions of the Super Smash Bros. series and I think it has steadily improved. I know a lot of features bothered veteran players, myself included, but hardly enough to ruin my enjoyment.

If you're only talking about the pro players, then I'm not sure what to say, considering how few they are in comparison to the rest of the fanbase. Not to mention the same thing could be said about pretty much any game; Starcraft II is considered inferior by some, and there are pros who keep on playing the first game to this day, even though the average player would most likely enjoy Starcraft II more than Starcraft I.

You are correct on Snake. I'm talking more of the vocal part of the Melee community that opposes features such as random tripping and lack of speed, like some of us do Casual Mode and Grinding. The key to this, this vocal minority if you will made an impact on Sm4sh. And I don't think it flat out ruined anyone's enjoyment of Brawl, just dampened. I think the same goes for those who dtract from Casual Mode and other features here, CM and grinding didn't flat out ruin Awakening for me, I still have a lot that I like in the game. For example, I like the music, artstyle, characters (for the most part), Story (for the most part), and UI. There's alot to like in Brawl too, The Soundtrack, Characters, Stages and extra modes, but that's not to say that there aren't detractors in either game. And no matter how much fanservice we get, it isn't going to change that.

Edited April 26, 2015 by DeoGame

[goodperson707]

^True but on smash i don't think casual mode is a valid comparison to the game mechanics between brawl and melee as tripping and speed affect nearly everyone, its more like a smash player saying items should be removed from the main game.

[Jagged Jagen]

^True but on smash i don't think casual mode is a valid comparison to the game mechanics between brawl and melee as tripping and speed affect nearly everyone, its more like a smash player saying items should be removed from the main game.

Maybe not the best comparison for Casual, but I think it works for Grinding and World Map, along with the removed mechanics like Fog of War.

[Thane]

Then what exactly do you think should be done about the casual mode? From what I gather, you believe Awakening is built around it, correct? That would indeed be odd considering it was a very late decision to have it added to the game, but if that's how you feel, then there's little I can do to convince you otherwise.

[BrandedRogue]

at least the enemy spawns were build for casual mode ><

[Jagged Jagen]

Then what exactly do you think should be done about the casual mode? From what I gather, you believe Awakening is built around it, correct? That would indeed be odd considering it was a very late decision to have it added to the game, but if that's how you feel, then there's little I can do to convince you otherwise.

I personally would like to see Casual Mode cut or Classic Mode Enhanced with incentives, or see the Nohr route be exclusively Classic. That's my opinion. Also, quick question, was Casual a last minute decision? I thought it only was for New Mystery.

at least the enemy spawns were build for casual mode ><

These are my thoughts exactly. I also feel on a different end of the spectrum that Pair Up and Dual Attack were added to make the game accessible. This is just my opinion though.

[goodperson707]

Maybe not the best comparison for Casual, but I think it works for Grinding and World Map, along with the removed mechanics like Fog of War.

I know thats why i specified casual especially since thats the name of the thread. But its still not a perfect example for the grinding and world map, as a change to a fighting game is nearly impossible to-workaround whereas in a turn based game you have the option of self imposed challenges.

Edit not sure what a good comparison of grinding and world map to smash would be. Hmm. The existence of brawl meta knight? Hmm that affects the meta game more. Im not sure.

Edited April 26, 2015 by goodperson707

[Sentacotus]

The thing about all this "casual stuff" is that none of it is forced on you as the player. Its not preordained that you have to grind to beat the game. If you want it is entirely possible to beat Luna+ on classic without grinding thats been the case for literally every single FE title released. While I definetely see how people can feel that the game caters to "casuals" and newcomers none of that stuff is forced on you as the player its all entirely optional the game can be as easy or hard as you make it. Hell no one forces you to buy the dlc or use it to grind let alone play the risen encounters.

[Jagged Jagen]

I know thats why i specified casual especially since thats the name of the thread. But its still not a perfect example for the grinding and world map, as a change to a fighting game is nearly impossible to-workaround whereas in a turn based game you have the option of self imposed challenges.

Self imposed challenges are possible in Smash too, but agreed not to the level of an SRPG.

Also, I think a better comparison with Casual is Mortal Kombat for the Genesis. The SNES version had no blood, while the Genesis version allowed one to turn it on and off. Which one is the most popular in the MK Kommunity? Genesis, because it's more faithful to the original, while the SNES and Genesis default modes are criticized for censoring/removing the essence of the game. IMO, Permadeath plays a big part in the FE series as a whole, and to sideline it, is to Mortal Kombat SNES us. Now Casual can admittedly be fun to relax and it brought in a new audience, same could be said for Bloodless MK. It can be fun, the gameplay is tight, it's still in many cases what we remember, but we're missing that key ingredient that adds to our enjoyment of the series as a whole.

[goodperson707]

^

So wait your comparison is that the genesis version is more well liked cause you can turn it on or off.

I don't get your point. You can turn casual off too.

Edit Actually i would say you turn it on classic will most likely always be seen as the default

Edited April 26, 2015 by goodperson707

[falcoknights]

I can give my own opinion on this since I'm a big beginner and casual mode helped to become (a little bit) better, I struggled A LOT when I started playing (Lissa getting beat up 5 times) but with Casual mode, I manage to beat the game. Now , I no longer need to play in Casual mode. So, I suggest to keep it as an option.

this-- i've said it before on this topic, but i went from a gameboy game FE (and five minutes messing around on a blockbuster rented PoR) to a ds- i also went from a ds lite to a 3ds, so i was woefully lost.

if it wasn't for 10 chapters casual mode, i would probably have never touched awakening again after 20 minutes, i was that pissed. but hey, lissa could come back and so could virion, so i didn't have to sweat the fact that i had no clue as to how a certain mechanic worked, because i could always try again.