Return of Casual

[Baldrick]

Whether intentional or not, you're linking lack of objection to Casual Mode (because it doesn't affect you) to lack of objection to rape (that doesn't affect you). This is not OK.

Now, if we could get back to talking about Casual now...

Going off a similar idea to "you can revive a unit within X turns", what if a character who dropped to 0 HP instead falls unconcious (becomes unselectable, but doesn't disappear)?

Enemy units that get in melee range can perform a "coup de grace" that would permanently kill them, but if you can protect them they won't suffer any ill effects.

It would keep the tension, but stop a lucky shot from the enemy from necessitating a reset.

[Integrity]

it should be dropped now

it should be dropped now

it should be dropped now

it should be dropped now

it should be dropped now

i pasted this multiple times to get the point across

using rape as a comparison is in horrible taste, please don't do it again, everybody stop talking about it and just go back to the regular old stupid nerd arguments

jesus

[omega zero]

... each copy of Fire Emblem is self contained, it literally affects no one else (unless the latest game has some sort of competitive online battles, which then I can kinda see an argument there when it comes to raising characters to fight and not having to worry about units dying.). Unless there are some I am not thinking of.

This is just restating the assertion.

1) The option of Casual mode does not affect more than the player.

2) If something does not affect more than the player, then it should not be a point of contention or criticism.

C) Therefore, Casual mode should not be a point of contention or criticism.

The big problem is with 2, since for some people, they don't have a reason to accept the premise.

[Gradivus.]

casual mode is part of the game's design and it is valid to criticize it as such.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Jagged Jagen]

Each copy of Fire Emblem is self contained, it literally affects no one else (unless the latest game has some sort of competitive online battles, which then I can kinda see an argument there when it comes to raising characters to fight and not having to worry about units dying.). Unless there are some I am not thinking of.

What about streetpass teams? That's why I've been arguing against Casual and Grinding in the first place.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Streetpass teams (and their predecessor in the GBA games, link arena teams) were always going to be vulnerable to grinding and degenerate tactics such as RNG abuse, glitches to get supposedly unobtainable items, etc.. Personally I have almost no interest in them as such, but if you do, you would be better off just accepting this inherent property they have.

I don't think Casual Mode is a major factor in making an overpowered Streetpass team, considering the many other options available.

[Jagged Jagen]

Streetpass teams (and their predecessor in the GBA games, link arena teams) were always going to be vulnerable to grinding and degenerate tactics such as RNG abuse, glitches to get supposedly unobtainable items, etc.. Personally I have almost no interest in them as such, but if you do, you would be better off just accepting this inherent property they have.

I don't think Casual Mode is a major factor in making an overpowered Streetpass team, considering the many other options available.

At least you had to go out of your way to deal with Link Arena teams, Streetpass has made it easier than ever to flaunt around grinding and when there's no permadeath or real consequences, it just adds more fuel to the fire.

[Jedi]

casual mode is part of the game's design and it is valid to criticize is as such.

Do you criticize games for having an easier difficulty mode then normal too then? Do you criticize games that have alternate ways to play them? Such as alternate characters and such? Such as Maria in Castlevania Rondo of Blood? Who makes the game 10x easier due to her superior abilities over Richter?

You. Do. Not. Have. To. Play. It.

Your favorite FE seems to contain said mode. I see a bit of hypocrisy here.

[goodperson707]

casual mode is part of the game's design and it is valid to criticize is as such.

Well yes of course you or others can criticize casual mode, but the fact is that it is an option in the game not forced on people, so unless you or others are criticizing how it affects your non casual game, it is kinda a superfluous argument and sometimes can come off a bit petty honestly.

[Gradivus.]

A game being my favorite doesn't encompass me considering it perfect. I acknowledge flaws it has and am not forced to like every single feature by the virtue of positive bias. I like FE12 for the most amount (most amount, not all of them; there are less good ones among them and I do know that) of its map designs, for instance. I should note Awakening also is my least favorite of the ones I played up to now (6, 8, 11, 12, 13) and I don't consider this way because of casual mode, moreso because I find its map designs dull past C3, perceive it more as steamrolling via high stats and consider the amount of strategy being comparatively low to other games and I'm not fond of the whole 2nd gen deal (long story short, I'm biased against it for own reasons that aren't cas/cla); my preferences of games do not come from trivial things like casual mode and I don't see why this thought would be hypocritical. Wouldn't the opposite be a bit more hypocritical? I simply stated that points like "Casual mode was a mistake, [...]" aren't inherently unreasonable, in response to the second option in omega zero's post. @Jedi

Edited April 26, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Crysta]

At least you had to go out of your way to deal with Link Arena teams, Streetpass has made it easier than ever to flaunt around grinding and when there's no permadeath or real consequences, it just adds more fuel to the fire.

I've went up against teams who have clearly grinded more than I have and I still have no trouble with them because the AI is terrible.

That mode has plenty of other, more serious problems that make it laughable.

[Vascela]

You cannot tell the difference between a casual or classic streetpass team by raw gameplay alone. Experience and gold are unlimited resources given that real time itself is an infinite resource. Someone who grinds all day for a streetpass team on classic could have a replica 1:1 copy team on casual.

Your mentality as the player may shift as you might reconsider fighting certain battles or even reconsider fighting the team in general. But that's a player's choice based off thinking--not actually off being in classic or casual.

[NoirCore]

No, that's exactly what I'm saying.His revenge-driven attitude is pointing at a vocal minority. As a result, he wishes for a result that punishes EVERYONE, or at least a bigger one than he intended.He only seeks for Classic players to remain unharmed.Unfortunately, his rage driven solution includes people who enjoy both. Like me.Even if I'm included a minority, I won't stand for selfish bellyaching while he paints it as "righteous indignation".You shouldn't wish to kill enjoyment for other people, especially those that have nothing to do with your own vision of how a game should be played.Even if you're the one "wronged" by the comments of casuals who don't like previous games.If you don't mind me citing, I have at least 10 friends I can name that got into Fire Emblem because of Casual Mode.And they are CURIOUS about the older games.And they have mentioned they would have never tried FE if they didn't include that option.They enjoy challenging themselves with hard mode.They also enjoy playing the game without stress by grinding if they want to.Should they be punished for wanting to play it that way?Especially when you don't HAVE to grind? When the chapters were designed for more skilled players to be able to take it on without grinding?If the game was designed with grinding in mind, that's when you guys should have a problem with "Casual Mode" as well as grinding.tl;dr he's wishing to kill MY and other's enjoyment of Casual Mode. And I or my friends certainly don't fit in that group he's pointing fingers at.

Don't worry, dude. I dislike his attitude, too, and stooping to the level of the group he hates (if he has even encountered them) is wrong, like I mentioned. I also disagree with his opinion of making casual more "punishing" (unless if it coexists with the casual mode without punishments that we know now, but even then, people can challenge themselves, they don't only have to rely on the game), as the mode was intended for casual gamers so they could enjoy FE among the hardcore players. I play casual mode myself, so I can understand from the casual player perspective.

You do have a point; liking the idea of a mode being gone just so you can laugh at those who liked the mode, even if the only guys you want to laugh at are rude and mean about it, is rather self-centered, since one is failing to consider the feelings of those who aren't even rude and mean, and they're stooping to the hated group's level.

[shadowofchaos]

What about streetpass teams? That's why I've been arguing against Casual and Grinding in the first place.

...my gosh, people actually are complaining about grinding for streetpass teams? I'm half tempted to mock people for that.

Taking streetpass seriously enough as an excuse/justification against casual mode... now I've seen everything.

[The Geek]

Geez. There's so much salt in this thread that all the water from the rest of the forum is leaking in here.

Casual probably isn't going anywhere. Disliking casual is fine, just don't go around insulting people who play casual. Seriously. I'm also curious as to this mysterious "casual or bust" group. I've seen one or two people who say that they don't want to ever play on classic, but I've never seen anyone hating on the older games because of that.

[goodperson707]

...my gosh, people actually are complaining about grinding for streetpass teams? I'm half tempted to mock people for that.

Taking streetpass seriously enough as an excuse/justification against casual mode... now I've seen everything.

I kinda get it, street-pass is what people see when they pass by you and having a fully stated team might look impressive to a casual viewer and might make it appear that you are really good at the game, again to a new player, also with max stats you can show it around to your friends who might find max stats quite impressive. In a word grinding gives casual newbie players justification for dubious "bragging rights". And thats terrible. Or i got this wrong and they mean that a limit broken team might be hard to defeat for a veteran who didn't grind. Of course on both counts, why the heck this matters? Well I guess thats the real question. Edited April 26, 2015 by goodperson707

[NekoKnight]

Whether intentional or not, you're linking lack of objection to Casual Mode (because it doesn't affect you) to lack of objection to rape (that doesn't affect you). This is not OK.

Now, if we could get back to talking about Casual now...

Going off a similar idea to "you can revive a unit within X turns", what if a character who dropped to 0 HP instead falls unconcious (becomes unselectable, but doesn't disappear)?

Enemy units that get in melee range can perform a "coup de grace" that would permanently kill them, but if you can protect them they won't suffer any ill effects.

It would keep the tension, but stop a lucky shot from the enemy from necessitating a reset.

This is exactly how it was implemented in Valkyria Chronicles, as I mentioned earlier. If your character lost all of their HP, they were knocked unconscious and needed to be rescued within 3 turns or they would die. Furthermore, if an enemy unit walked up to the downed character, it would instantly kill them. This generally only happened when there weren't any other allies close by (if there were, the enemy would be focused on shooting them instead) so it wasn't too punishing.

I think casual mode is good for players that want a low-stress environment but if a compromise could be made to allow that but also maintain the gravity of potential casualties, it would be best.

[KMT4ever]

This is exactly how it was implemented in Valkyria Chronicles, as I mentioned earlier. If your character lost all of their HP, they were knocked unconscious and needed to be rescued within 3 turns or they would die. Furthermore, if an enemy unit walked up to the downed character, it would instantly kill them. This generally only happened when there weren't any other allies close by (if there were, the enemy would be focused on shooting them instead) so it wasn't too punishing.

I think casual mode is good for players that want a low-stress environment but if a compromise could be made to allow that but also maintain the gravity of potential casualties, it would be best.

Agreed. The main problem with Casual is that there is no effective penalty for letting your units die. Unless you're an unbelievably bad player the one or two missing units shouldn't stop you from winning the level and getting them back.

I'm going to use Pokemon as another example. You can let them faint, then revive them with no negative effects, but reviving in the field is more expensive than just healing with potions, so it's in your best interest to keep them conscious if you aren't willing to run back to a town every time someone faints.

Losing units in Casual should still inconvenience you in some way that's noticeable. Having them sit out battles doesn't really work with Risen skirmishes, so perhaps taking a hit to XP gained later on in the level by other units, or something else detrimental to your future playing if you play too recklessly. Maybe they drop something they were carrying in the escape? Special items like the Falchions can't be dropped.

The issue is that Casual is quite useful for people who want to play Lunatic without having to follow an exact strategy, me being one of them, so we may just have to take the bad with the good. Plenty of people will use the mode to ease into Classic, but given the general rarity of permadeath nowadays in games some people will definitely say it's too hard. I personally don't have anything against Casual, but I'm afraid people will start complaining that that's how FE should be. Hopefully IS won't pander.

[NekoKnight]

Agreed. The main problem with Casual is that there is no effective penalty for letting your units die. Unless you're an unbelievably bad player the one or two missing units shouldn't stop you from winning the level and getting them back.

I'm going to use Pokemon as another example. You can let them faint, then revive them with no negative effects, but reviving in the field is more expensive than just healing with potions, so it's in your best interest to keep them conscious if you aren't willing to run back to a town every time someone faints.

Losing units in Casual should still inconvenience you in some way that's noticeable. Having them sit out battles doesn't really work with Risen skirmishes, so perhaps taking a hit to XP gained later on in the level by other units, or something else detrimental to your future playing if you play too recklessly. Maybe they drop something they were carrying in the escape? Special items like the Falchions can't be dropped.

The issue is that Casual is quite useful for people who want to play Lunatic without having to follow an exact strategy, me being one of them, so we may just have to take the bad with the good. Plenty of people will use the mode to ease into Classic, but given the general rarity of permadeath nowadays in games some people will definitely say it's too hard. I personally don't have anything against Casual, but I'm afraid people will start complaining that that's how FE should be. Hopefully IS won't pander.

I think Pokemon as it is, is already a pretty close analogue to casual Fire Emblem. If your Pokemon faint, they are unavailable for the remainder of the area you are in, unless you return to town. It would be a pretty shitty game if Nuzlock runs were the standard mode of play.

I've never heard a single person argue that classic shouldn't be in the game or that casual is the proper way to play Fire Emblem (unlike so many others here who argue the opposite) so I'm not concerned about classic ever being removed.

[eclipse]

It might just be less casual players going "classic sucks" and more "fe4 sucks i liek awakening" that rubs them the wrong way.

I'll be one of the first to say that I'm not FE4's biggest fan. Then again, I have FE11 listed as my favorite game, so take my opinion with a salt shaker.

Going off a similar idea to "you can revive a unit within X turns", what if a character who dropped to 0 HP instead falls unconcious (becomes unselectable, but doesn't disappear)?

Enemy units that get in melee range can perform a "coup de grace" that would permanently kill them, but if you can protect them they won't suffer any ill effects.

It would keep the tension, but stop a lucky shot from the enemy from necessitating a reset.

Can't really get behind this, because it allows for some strategical derps, but not necessarily for "some asshat critted me at 2% in the first battle of EP, which is why I want to restart". IIRC, that was cited as one of the reasons why Casual's a good thing.

At least you had to go out of your way to deal with Link Arena teams, Streetpass has made it easier than ever to flaunt around grinding and when there's no permadeath or real consequences, it just adds more fuel to the fire.

Why are you assuming that it's for grinding? Why is it even BAD if the sole purpose was to grind? My Streetpass team is a one-stop shop for good early-game items (pre-Chapter 7, to be exact), with a side of battle if the player doesn't need a load of items.

I kinda get it, street-pass is what people see when they pass by you and having a fully stated team might look impressive to a casual viewer and might make it appear that you are really good at the game, again to a new player, also with max stats you can show it around to your friends who might find max stats quite impressive. In a word grinding gives casual newbie players justification for dubious "bragging rights". And thats terrible. Or i got this wrong and they mean that a limit broken team might be hard to defeat for a veteran who didn't grind. Of course on both counts, why the heck this matters? Well I guess thats the real question.

Why are these "bragging rights" terrible?

Losing units in Casual should still inconvenience you in some way that's noticeable. Having them sit out battles doesn't really work with Risen skirmishes, so perhaps taking a hit to XP gained later on in the level by other units, or something else detrimental to your future playing if you play too recklessly. Maybe they drop something they were carrying in the escape? Special items like the Falchions can't be dropped.

IMO paying gold equal to the unit's level x 100 (or some other coefficient) to put them back on the roster would be sufficient.

[Baldrick]

@The Geek; calling people who prefer classic bitter is to be encouraged, though. :)

@NekoKnight; never played VC but yeah, that sounds like a good implementation

@eclipse; do you think it would be fairer if enemies prioritised non-fallen PCs? It makes some sense, since the downed units aren't a threat anymore, and you wouldn't leave a downed ally alone at the mercy of the enemy anyway.

[Crysta]

There are plenty of classic players here who aren't bitter.

The bitter ones are being called bitter.

EDIT: ... By other classic players.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Crysta

[eclipse]

@eclipse; do you think it would be fairer if enemies prioritised non-fallen PCs? It makes some sense, since the downed units aren't a threat anymore, and you wouldn't leave a downed ally alone at the mercy of the enemy anyway.

It really, REALLY depends on how it's implemented. Do the fallen units count as obstacles? Does it take an action to kill them, or can the enemy do it by ending their turn next to one? How will this affect enemy pathing? Stuff like this needs to be taken into consideration, and IMO it needlessly complicates the game.

I've got a minor headache just listing the first few possibilities that come to mind!

[phantasmage]

I would gladly welcome the return of the Casual option. My reason being that it made it possible to have 5 different saves (3 Classic saves and 2 mid-battle Casual saves).

[Moishe Oofnik]

Casual mode is an option Classic is also an option and if people want to play casual be my guest

Permadeath isnt like the brutal difficulty of dark souls because fire emblem never tried to push we have permadeath dark souls marketed it self as a very hard game so adding an easy mode is a pretty hard kick in the balls but we already had resurrection items in some FEs I dont see people complaining about valkyre staff casual is the wrong way to play FE its another way to play it... for people who may wanna play casualy and not HARDCORE my problem is with the term classic because many people will catagorize it as "Old" mode for some reason Id rather call it perma death and some people may find perma death frustrating (many critics b8 that as a problem while I dont I find it one of the most enjoyable things about the series) so FE did what it did to continue as a series and it didnt make it worse FE12 is one of my favorite FEs casual mode didnt make it worse I have the option to play classic so casual doesnt differ MY gameplay experience

Perma death isnt the Gore and Fataity/brutalitys of mortal kombat it isnt the extremely hard difficulty of rence and repeat of dark souls FE never marketed it self as a permadeath experience mainly dark souls and Mortal Kombat did