2017 NFL Playoffs - Super Bowl LI Confirmed! Atlanta Falcons vs New England Patriots!

[Phoenix Wright]

Yeah, I'd be a little more inclined to take what he's saying into consideration.

so, you'd rather he be less transparent, deceptive (in that he knows he has bias, but chooses to not admit it), and manipulative (he can control the way you react based on omitting or including certain words that aren't related to the point)?

i'm at a loss for words...

[Anacybele]

I don't see where you're getting the idea that he's deceptive and manipulative, but why would you want someone to be like that anyway?

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, I'd be a little more inclined to take what he's saying into consideration.

And I could argue all day that Ben has gotten great stats these days that equate to an elite QB, I just don't feel like doing that anymore because I'm tired of doing it.

As much as I don't like the elite QB label, it's definitely more of a career thing than a season thing. Peyton was #36 in DYAR last year(only ahead of Nick Foles), but he definitely had an elite career. In 2013, Peyton was #1 and Foles was #5.

Roethlisberger has been mostly consistent. He's been in the top 11 in DYAR every year except for 2008. However, he hasn't been in the top 5 except for the past 2 years.

I'm actually a little leery about putting Aaron Rodgers in the same category as Brady/Manning/Brees looking at the stats. Since 2008, he's had 4 top 5 seasons in DYAR, 2 top 10, 2 lower than that.

Brady has finished top 6 every year since 2009(2008 was injury year). Brees has finished top 6 every year since 2008. Peyton has been top 3 every year except when he was injured(2011) and this year.

Rivers is probably the only other QB in the conversation, he's worse than Brady/Manning/Brees but is a bit better than Rodgers on this metric overall.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, Ben has been in the top five in the past two years. That's a reason I say he's elite now. If I said he was elite before then, well, I wasn't as educated on the NFL back then as I am now. And if he keeps getting top five for the remainder of his career, he should definitely be considered elite.

[Life]

Yeah, Ben has been in the top five in the past two years. That's a reason I say he's elite now. If I said he was elite before then, well, I wasn't as educated on the NFL back then as I am now. And if he keeps getting top five for the remainder of his career, he should definitely be considered elite.

Stat-wise, Tyrod Taylor was the 5th best QB in the league this year.

Does that make him elite?

Look, we get that you like Roethlisberger. It's obvious. But you cannot prove that he's elite. Ben averages 20 TDs per season and he's been playing for a decade. Tyrod Taylor came off the goddamn bench and threw for 20 TDs in his ​first ​starting season.

If Ben is elite, then Tyrod is too. Especially when Tyrod had a 99.4 QBR while Ben has averaged 94.0 over his career.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Pharoahe Monch

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah that's the thing about the 'elite' status- a lot of it is about the timeframe you choose. I went with 8 years because that's all the data we have on Rodgers, but it's pretty arbitrary.

[Anacybele]

No, one good year doesn't make you elite. Ben has had two or more. That's the difference.

[Life]

In other news that involves the other 31 teams in the NFL, the Eagles just traded away Kiko Alonzo and Byron Maxwell for draft picks.

As a Bills fan, this tells me a few things.

1) Fuck Miami and thank god that their offense is a lot weaker than people are willing to admit. Because I do not want to be facing Kiko and Maxwell twice a season and now I have to.

2) The Eagles have finally admitted that the Chip Kelly experiment was a complete disaster considering that both Kiko and Maxwell only got to Philly a year ago.

3) It's official. The Bills hosed Philly in the Shady/Kiko swap. Thank god we have a competent GM (Doug Whaley may actually be the man to drag our sorry asses back to the Superbowl).

[Lord Raven]

leave it to ana for my joke about flacco to whoosh over her goddamn head. are you fucking serious? you're literally looking for something that isn't there. in fact, it took you two posts to even read it, and you ignored the entire rest of the post. If what I am saying is bullshit, it should be easy for you to refute the entire rest of the post, but as it stands the one joke I make nullifies everything else, simply on the grounds that you don't want to read the rest of it because you're looking for a contradiction that I didn't make, not because it was wrong.

i would personally choose flacco over everyone else due to personal attachment, not for any substantiative reason

yet I was serious about Ben not even being a top 5 playoff QB over the past decade - and I was also dead serious about putting flacco there

Edited March 8, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Life]

No, one good year doesn't make you elite. Ben has had two or more. That's the difference.

Do you hear yourself say this shit?

This season, Roethlisberger wasn't even top 5 QBs. Because the top 5 included Taylor. I'm not being biased, I'm simply pointing out that he had a 20/6 TD/INT ratio before his 4 rushing TDs. Wanna know what Ben was? 21/16 without any rushing TDs.

That's not elite. That's good. At most. Maybe RG3 level when RG3 was pretty decent.

​But Ben was injured and it wasn't fair!

And Tyrod Taylor had never started a game, never mind a season. Ben, meanwhile, has 1.5 Superbowl rings (9/21 for 123 yards and 2 INTs means that your team won the Superbowl despite your best efforts to suck) so there's no excuse, not even injury.

If you consider Roethlisberger elite based on this season and a previous one, you're mistaken because he wasn't even amazing this season.

But whatever. It's not like you to actually consider that you might be wrong ​all the goddamn time ​mostly because you're narcissistic and won't let facts get in the way of your delusions. So as a favour to the rest of us, stop posting. Please. Forever. Take your idiocy somewhere else.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Pharoahe Monch

[Lord Raven]

Ben has also missed like 50 career starts or so (maybe 40) all interspersed throughout his career. Mots of the guys I mentioned missed a bunch due to a freak injury (manning 2011, Brady 2008, Rodgers 2013) or old age (Manning 2015, Brees 2015). I personally don't trust a guy whose playstyle leaves him susceptible to injury.

[chococoke]

1) Fuck Miami and thank god that their offense is a lot weaker than people are willing to admit. Because I do not want to be facing Kiko and Maxwell twice a season and now I have to.

You're scared of facing a league-average-at-best corner who will cost over $10m per season? Bruh

[Life]

You're scared of facing a league-average-at-best corner who will cost over $10m per season? Bruh

I'm scared of facing a defense that is on the up and up because they also have Grimes (may get rid of him though) and Suh against what still looks like a suspect Bills O Line (better than it's been in a decade but it's like being the tallest midget).

[Jiac]

I think with elite, you kind of have to consider tape too. Stats don't tell the entire story. You build legacies based off your elite status. Things you're remembered for.

Aaron Rodgers just had a down year this year, having his 3rd lowest completion accuracy in his career. However, he was missing his prime targets, Jordy Nelson tore his ACL, Davante Adams took a step-back, Randall Cobb playing inconsistently etc.

However, he is in fact still an elite Quarterback. What do you remember about Aaron Rodgers for this year? Those three Hail Marys he made this entire year? He did incredible stuff that will be remembered in your legacy, that's what gets you in the Hall of Fame and elite status.

Brady made all those throws to Moss, it was systematic and incredible to watch. He's still making incredible throws to Gronk who absolutely tears up the field. A perhaps defining definition of elite.

Those times that Brees was gonna get sacked yet makes an incredible throw while evading the sack at the same time.

Perhaps for the last few years, Ben hasn't been elite. I could agree on, he can still break tackles but not as effectively as he used to.

Rivers didn't have an elite year either. He did have an elite stretch, it was incredible to watch, but the fact he could not get it going with practice squad receivers, just discredits his elite status.

Both are very good quarterbacks still.

Elite is so incredibly subjective, that I feel like film should be an aspect of it. Are they doing something that has never been done before, something incredible, or something that is so mechanically impressive that it's elite?

Rivers' head is definitely elite, but can you see it when he throws into triple coverage? Ben's arm is elite, but is that only thing that defines him as elite?

Just my two cents.

EDIT: Let's take elite examples for a moment.

Adrian Peterson is elite because he's such a dominant runner, that he's a threat no matter what.

Ladainian Tomlinson is elite because he's the complete runningback. Jack of all trades, but dominant in every aspect. Perfect body for it too.

Fair comparison is Rob Gronkowski. He's the complete Tight End. Perfect body to dominate smaller defenders, big enough to absorb contact. Receives well enough that he's a threat, but blocks well enough he's also a threat in the run game.

Tom Brady is elite due to his quick-release and incredible mindgames against the defense. However, he's both sturdy and elusive enough to take and evade hits well enough despite being like 38 years old.

Richard Sherman is elite because he's a large target, therefore he dictates how the Quarterback has to throw the ball. Plus his head is elite, making him able to cover the best receivers and bait interceptions.

Revis is elite because he shuts-down receivers, effectively putting them out of play. Rarely gives up anything for the benefit of the team.

What has players like Ben or Rivers done lately that's defined them as elite this year? Mind you consistency is a factor.

Ben was elite due to his ability to be durable and big enough to take and avoid sacks as well as have a big arm. He's been injured the whole year so I cannot define him as elite.

Rivers was elite due to his volume of passes during his elite stretch before anyone went down. However, he was unable to show the same type of consistency later in the season.

This is what probably places Marshawn Lynch between elite and very good. He can look dominant as hell during beast quake and is a threat in the passing game, but he was injured the entire season, and can look super ineffective sometimes.

Just my two cents.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ~Summer~

[Anacybele]

What has Ben done lately to define him as elite? I've already mentioned some of his greatest stats. I've already mentioned throwing 300 yards on the best defense in the league twice in one season, the second time with a busted up throwing shoulder. I've already mentioned the multiple NFL records he's set. He's been mostly great lately, even despite missing a few games. He does need to stop getting hurt though, and I might not call him elite anymore if he can't stay healthy. I've also mentioned how incredible his deep ball is. And you've mentioned how tough he is and his ability to avoid sacks, Summer. The past two, maybe three years, he's been elite.

To me, elite RBs are: Adrian Peterson, Marshawn Lynch, Jamaal Charles (maybe). I'd also add Le'Veon Bell to this list, but CAN THE GUY EVER STAY HEALTHY? And if he keeps getting his knee injured the way it has been, he won't be playing at all. Otherwise, his first two seasons had him doing some great stuff and he was starting to build a third great season before he got hurt for the second time.

WRs: Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, AJ Green, DeAndre Hopkins, Jordy Nelson. I'd add Calvin Johnson to this list, but age is starting to get to him.

TEs: Gronk, obviously. And maybe Travis Kelce.

I might be forgetting a few guys, though...

EDIT: Calvin Johnson just announced his retirement, so he's definitely not on the list now.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Anacybele

[Life]

I'd add Calvin Johnson to this list, but ​he's retired.

Only part of your post that I'm going to bother looking at because I can't deal with this shit anymore. And he retired today.

[Lord Raven]

What has Ben done lately to define him as elite? I've already mentioned some of his greatest stats. I've already mentioned throwing 300 yards on the best defense in the league twice in one season, the second time with a busted up throwing shoulder. I've already mentioned the multiple NFL records he's set. He's been mostly great lately, even despite missing a few games. He does need to stop getting hurt though, and I might not call him elite anymore if he can't stay healthy. I've also mentioned how incredible his deep ball is. And you've mentioned how tough he is and his ability to avoid sacks, Summer. The past two, maybe three years, he's been elite.

Flacco has set multiple NFL records in the past few years too. Are we gonna brand him elite? No, because Ben's records are pretty cherry picked, ditto with Flacco's.

300 yards on the best defense in the league - but they only scored 16 or so points in the second game, and the first game was a fluke by the Denver defense's standards this year. This is still pretty cherry picked, because Flacco threw 300 yards and 4 TDs against the best secondary in the game in last year's playoffs - with a bunch of pretty mediocre receivers, with his top TE and top WR being 32 and 35 years respectively - still not elite.

Hell, fucking Chad Henne had a career game against the 2012 Texans Defense who were amazing at the time that he was playing them. A few game sample size is not enough to brand someone elite.

[Anacybele]

"it was a fluke" is the biggest and lamest excuse in the book for such a scenario. Pah-lease. And you forget that the second game lacked AB and DeAngelo Williams. AB especially was a major factor in that first game.

I didn't say records alone made a QB elite. I would probably almost consider Flacco elite too. The poor guy just hasn't had the offense he needs to let him shine more. He does a lot of things well, but his receivers have just been bad. In fact, with the Steelers practically rolling in good WRs these days, it makes me feel spoiled as a fan and wish that our team could give the Ravens one of those WRs (not AB though! :P). I don't want to feel like or be a spoiled fan. And I respect the Ravens despite them being our big rivals.

Only part of your post that I'm going to bother looking at because I can't deal with this shit anymore. And he retired today.

Good, I can't deal with your shit anymore either. And sorry for not KNOWING, god damn. If that news just came out today, there's no way I could've known because I JUST got home from work a little while ago and haven't fucking checked the NFL site yet.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

"it was a fluke" is the biggest and lamest excuse in the book for such a scenario. Pah-lease. And you forget that the second game lacked AB and DeAngelo Williams. AB especially was a major factor in that first game.

Fluke for Denver D.

Yards don't matter if you don't score. Only 16 points from 300 yards means turnovers, bad red zone and an opportunistic D that doesn't care for yards; just points and turnovers.

You'll find that 300 yards is not the benchmark of a good QB. Again, Chad Henne threw like 400 yards against an incredible Houston D; we aren't singing his praises. Single game sample sizes mean nothing, especially since Ben couldn't do shit against a decimated Ravens team that had very little offense. And he had Antonio Brown there.

You know he was like third in interceptions this season to like Bortles and Manning right?

I didn't say records alone made a QB elite. I would probably almost consider Flacco elite too. The poor guy just hasn't had the offense he needs to let him shine more. He does a lot of things well, but his receivers have just been bad. In fact, with the Steelers practically rolling in good WRs these days, it makes me feel spoiled as a fan and wish that our team could give the Ravens one of those WRs (not AB though! :P). I don't want to feel like or be a spoiled fan. And I respect the Ravens despite them being our big rivals.

Whether or not he has those weapons, he won't be considered elite. The dude is great but the Ravens will never let him post phenomenal numbers on account of emphasizing the run game.

Besides, this is generally your only argument in favor of Ben being elite. Like a 5 game sample size.

Also Daunte Culpepper had like 3 elite years but nobody's exactly singing his praises.

Good, I can't deal with your shit anymore either. And sorry for not KNOWING, god damn. If that news just came out today, there's no way I could've known because I JUST got home from work a little while ago and haven't fucking checked the NFL site yet.

He was correcting one thing, he didn't want to bother with the rest of your post.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, but honestly, it's a little more so that Ben did that with a busted up shoulder and no AB. THAT is impressive no matter how you look at it. I know of the rest of that stuff, but several of Ben's picks weren't his fault. You know as well as I do that you can't always blame the QB for a pick.

You can't seriously blame only Ben for those losses to the Ravens, that was the entire team not doing its job for whatever reason.

In other news, OMG OMG OMG AB IS GOING ON DANCING WITH THE STARS AND I SORTA FORESAW IT!! Must watch! I love that man! :D

Edited March 8, 2016 by Anacybele

[Life]

You know as well as I do that you can't always blame the QB for a pick.

He threw 16 of them. One per game if he had even played every game. There were rookie QBs that started more games and threw less INTs.

So yes. I will blame Ben for the majority of them.

On another note, RICHIE'S BACK, MOFOS.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Pharoahe Monch

[Phoenix Wright]

You can't seriously blame only Ben for those losses to the Ravens, that was the entire team not doing its job for whatever reason.

sam bradford is the elitest of qbs

[Life]

sam bradford is the elitest of qbs

That's actually excellent logic.

IT'S NOT RG3'S FAULT, EVERYONE AROUND HIM STANK TOO MUCH.

[chococoke]

I'm a little sad the Pats didn't make a play for Richie. Their interior Oline is still crap.

Also not sure why the Ravens grabbed old man Ben Watson

[-Cynthia-]

I think with elite, you kind of have to consider tape too. Stats don't tell the entire story. You build legacies based off your elite status. Things you're remembered for.

Aaron Rodgers just had a down year this year, having his 3rd lowest completion accuracy in his career. However, he was missing his prime targets, Jordy Nelson tore his ACL, Davante Adams took a step-back, Randall Cobb playing inconsistently etc.

However, he is in fact still an elite Quarterback. What do you remember about Aaron Rodgers for this year? Those three Hail Marys he made this entire year? He did incredible stuff that will be remembered in your legacy, that's what gets you in the Hall of Fame and elite status.

I remember that the Packers lost at home to the Bears and Lions and had like 2 months straight where they were pretty bad on offense, but I'm not most people I guess. Brees manages to stay top 6 despite the Saints roster being everchanging and progressively crappier, so I have trouble buying into Rodgers being elite when he's only top 5/6 50% of his seasons.