Rebalanced Dual/Pair Up system

[VincentASM]

So something that kind of got lost with all the Phoenix Mode and weapon durability debates... In the recent Famitsu issue, they explained a bit on how the Dual/Pair Up systems in Awakening have been rebalanced (something the devs hinted in the 4Gamer interview).

At the moment, the details are super vague (one-line descriptions and a handful of screenshots), but this is how they appear to work now:

Note: Some of this information is highly speculative.

Firstly, it appears Dual Strikes–where a friendly unit provides a follow-up attack–are only possible if the friendly unit is adjacent on the map. In these situations, it’s said the two units adopt an Attack Stance. Follow-up attacks seem to deal reduced damage too, but perhaps are guaranteed to trigger.

Conversely, Dual Guards–where a friendly unit completely deflects an enemy attack–may be restricted to paired up units only. When two units pair up to become one unit, they adopt a Guard Stance. Characters have a “shield” gauge, which may affect their ability to deflect attacks.

This change means units can only benefit from follow-up attacks or protection from enemy attacks–and not both at the same time. This also creates more incentive for units to remain separate, to benefit from the increased offensive capabilities, rather than combining all the time, like in Awakening.

Secondly, enemy units can adopt the Attack Stance or Guard Stance, just like the player. So players must be cautious when there are many enemies around. Furthermore, if units from both sides have adopted a stance, there is the possibility of 2 versus 2 battles.

Relevant images: Top of this page

Also, there's an extra detail that somebody on Reddit mentioned, which could be interesting (and in case anybody wonders if I stole this topic, I was planning to post this before last night).

That is, in one screenshot, Kamui is in an Attack Stance with Suzukaze, but Suzukaze has no stats for a follow-up attack. There are many explanations for this, but one could be that the enemies are in a Guard Stance and Guard Stances directly negate Attack Stances.

[euklyd]

on the one hand: wow that sounds way more complicated; that might be kinda frustrating to keep track of

on the other: it's really nice to have more actual trade-offs; complexity can be cool if balanced/implemented properly

I for one am cautiously optimistic, and not even that cautious in my optimism

also, for those curious, the reddit post in question

[VincentASM]

TBH, it probably sounds way more complex on paper than it is to use in game. (I wrote a lot more than necessary in case people didn't know how things worked in Awakening)

It is basically the same as Awakening's system, except pairing up no long gives Dual Strikes and standing adjacent no longer gives Dual Guards.

[euklyd]

to be fair

I'm sure that even if it were as complex as it looks on paper, we'd get used to it super quickly

[Cysx]

I would say I saw that thing with Suzukaze first but that would be a lie

I'm really excited for this change by the way. Strategically, it sounds awesome.

[Ryo]

I wonder how they'll handle Dual Guard/Guard Stance. Can the unit still attack/counter-attack the enemies while being safely guarded? That can definitely be abused. Also, if the shield gauge really represents the number of times you can be DGed, then you can have up to 10 times or something, isn't that too broken? You can just place a pair at a choke point to nullify all attacks, while have a ranged unit sit behind them to shoot down all of the approaching enemies.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ryo

[goodperson707]

^ uh how does limited dual guard cause you to nullify all attacks, i don't see any thing about them changing the percentage based system that much, just them limiting it.

[Ryo]

Except there is no DS% and DG% in any of the screenshots, so there's a high chance that DS and DG are now guaranteed instead of being RNG-based.

[Philranger]

I wonder how they'll handle Dual Guard/Guard Stance. Can the unit still attack/counter-attack the enemies while being safely guarded? That can definitely be abused. Also, if the shield gauge really represents the number of times you can be DGed, then you can have up to 10 times or something, isn't that too broken? You can just place a pair at a choke point to nullify all attacks, while have a ranged unit sit behind them to shoot down all of the approaching enemies.

Potentially, but does that meter refill every turn? Or is it 10 for the whole chapter? If it's the latter that's not really that broken. Also I'm betting it takes a lot of work to fill up that gauge to have a max of 10.

[Ryo]

Guess we have to wait and see. I'm still really skeptical about this but at least they're not adapting Awakening's system unchanged, which is a plus point.

EDIT: I think the number of shields is determined by support level, though that would mean that enemies have supports as well, which is pretty interesting.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ryo

[Cysx]

Guess we have to wait and see. I'm still really skeptical about this but at least they're not adapting Awakening's system unchanged, which is a plus point.

EDIT: I think the number of shields is determined by support level, though that would mean that enemies have supports as well, which is pretty interesting.

I'd say it's class based myself. Could be based on armor too, which is another thing we barely know anything about

[Ayra]

If that's the case, it'd be pretty darn cool. Actually, that'd match the way I already play Awakening pretty well... I keep my units separate most of the time and only paired up when necessary (Reinforcements coming, transportation over obstacles, boss 1-shoting units) and unpair them once the emergency is over. This new support mechanism would be amazing for me: I hope that this theory is correct!

[Awakener_]

I hope dual guard isn't guaranteed, enemies will always outnumbered us. It will be pain in the ass if enemy start to fight in pair. Also do we still gain support point if we fight in pair-up/guard stance? That my main concern.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm just really grateful that they're changing the system. I was not a fan of Pair Up in particular as it was implemented in Awakening; it was far too powerful. Hearing about these changes gives me hope that the whole system has been rebalanced, at worst to be less overpowered and hopefully to be more interesting/strategic. I won't speculate further seeing as we don't yet have all the info, but yeah, I'm very happy with this news.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I hope dual guard isn't guaranteed, enemies will always outnumbered us. It will be pain in the ass if enemy start to fight in pair. Also do we still gain support point if we fight in pair-up/guard stance? That my main concern.

erm, I highly doubt dual guard is guaranteed, this makes them practically invincible...

[Lynsanity]

It will be a little weird seeing enemy units pairing up to utilize guard stance, if that's indeed how it works. That would definitely be a new wrinkle in the enemy AI, instead of just "run run run attack the first thing you can"

[Bovinian]

erm, I highly doubt dual guard is guaranteed, this makes them practically invincible...

It could be the case that it is guaranteed when it is active (as in, not determined by RNG), but only active in certain cases. This would be the best way to implement a dual guard system for enemies, so you can plan around it and not have to pick a god and pray every time you attack.

[Jagged Jagen]

Honestly, I don't mind this. But, what I'm concerned about is the stat boosts. It's great if your helper can't attack in Pair-Up, but if you have God tier statistics, I fail to fully see the balance. Especially if you were paired up with, for example a Cleric, who wouldn't inherently attack to begin with.

[Awakener_]

It could be the case that it is guaranteed when it is active (as in, not determined by RNG), but only active in certain cases. This would be the best way to implement a dual guard system for enemies, so you can plan around it and not have to pick a god and pray every time you attack.

That seem to be so much of a bother... Seriously, I manage to YOLO through FEs without any problems minus some lucky crit from the enemy. I hope they have dual guard as a exclusive for us and the enemy has only access to dual strike.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Awakener_

[Bovinian]

That seem to be so much of a bother... Seriously, I manage to YOLO through FEs without any problems minus some lucky crit from the enemy. I hope they have dual guard as a exclusive for us and the enemy has only access to dual strike.

Play on Phoenix and you can yolo through this one too no problem

[Philranger]

Honestly, I don't mind this. But, what I'm concerned about is the stat boosts. It's great if your helper can't attack in Pair-Up, but if you have God tier statistics, I fail to fully see the balance. Especially if you were paired up with, for example a Cleric, who wouldn't inherently attack to begin with.

If the boosts you get from pair-up (even in Awakening) push you to some mythical God-tier in terms of stats, chances are you were already pretty close to that level anyway.

[Awakener_]

Play on Phoenix and you can yolo through this one too no problem

I mean I am casual but not casual to point of playing that kind of easy mode, it just that in lunatic+ I have to not just to be careful of the broken ass AI's skills but them completely negating my attack too?!

[arvilino]

If Attack Stance/Dual Strikes really are guaranteed attacks with 50% damage it's probably going to affect significantly how to use characters offensively(because the damage will be more reliable unlike Awakening's) and also especially protecting against enemy attacks. Even slow enemies like an Archer and a Knight can turn what would be one attack each into two attacks(or 50% more damage) each on the player's phase if they're adjacent to each other when they attack.

e.g. Placing an Archer one square out of range of an enemies attack radius and place a Knight adjacent to the Archer in range of the enemy. Next turn attack with the Archer(Knight Dual Strikes) then attack the enemy from one range with the Knight(Archer Dual Strikes).

Honestly, I don't mind this. But, what I'm concerned about is the stat boosts. It's great if your helper can't attack in Pair-Up, but if you have God tier statistics, I fail to fully see the balance. Especially if you were paired up with, for example a Cleric, who wouldn't inherently attack to begin with.

A lot of the time especially in the harder modes the partner's dual attacks can be important in killing the enemies because you usually want the main unit to wield 1-2 range weapons which are typically weaker.

With a 1-2 range weapon trying to god mode the game if you fail to one round them the enemies will build up and they'll be getting lots of extra attacks through dual strike. With a 1 range more powerful weapon the new system where enemies can dual strike risks something like enemy Mage(s) or Archer(s) attacking you from 2 range and then getting several dual strikes in a row from adjacent enemies attacking especially if the 1 range enemies are killing themselves on your unit.

Edited May 18, 2015 by arvilino

[Neoleo21]

Play on Phoenix and you can yolo through this one too no problem

Phoenix is like the exact opposite of YOLO.

[FrostyFireMage]

Phoenix is like the exact opposite of YOLO.

YOLAMTAYW - You Only Live As Many Times As You Want