Romance! Intrigue! Honor! And WAR!! Let's Max Rank Fire Emblem 4!!

[FionordeQuester]

Chapter 4 Part 2: http://lpix.org/sslptest/index.php?id=145030

Alright guys, LOTS of exciting stuff in this update! Also, Konnor96 brought up a good point; one that I didn't realize till putting up the Unit Level ups...

"+5 HP for Azel!"

Do you mean for Tiltyu?

Never mind, I remembered the event wrong.

Ergh...whoa...YOU'RE the one who's right actually! Tiltyu WAS the person who got that HP boost, not Azel! She was the one who was feeling spunkier after that, so, of course she's the one that'd reap the rewards >_> !

Edited August 18, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Alastor15243]

There are technically a few substitute characters that can be worth something...but none of them can ever make up for the lack of Inheritance.

But... but Laylea gives you a third stackable charisma! Do you have any idea how exploitable that is?

http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Raustblackdragon/media/perfectsupportphalanx.png.html

Everyone in this picture has +60% hit and avoid, except for Delmud, Laylea and Nanna, who all have +50!

[sirmola]

But... but Laylea gives you a third stackable charisma! Do you have any idea how exploitable that is?

http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Raustblackdragon/media/perfectsupportphalanx.png.html

Everyone in this picture has +60% hit and avoid, except for Delmud, Laylea and Nanna, who all have +50!

And you'd think that sharlow's elite makes it easier for him to gain those precious levels. (granted, he is a staff user, but still..)

[FionordeQuester]

Alastor: But... but Laylea gives you a third stackable charisma! Do you have any idea how exploitable that is?

sirmola: And you'd think that sharlow's elite makes it easier for him to gain those precious levels. (granted, he is a staff user, but still..)

Well...I mean, first of all, Laylea doesn't get Prayer; that's a HUGE downgrade for someone who wants any chance in the Arena. Secondly, Laylea is only contributing about 10% of that Hit and Avoid. And with Sharlow, Elite IS handy...but I can still just buy the Elite Ring with the Bargain skill that Dew's passing down. And that's the key really; Bargain is FAR more helpful in leveling up Laylea than Charisma is.

With Laylea, you have someone who can mayyyybe give a minor boost to your units...if she can keep up with them...which itself is a pretty big assumption. In otherwords, Laylea is much more useful in a casual run than she is in an AAAA Ranked run, where the EXP rank is always a worry.

Hope that makes sense !

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[FionordeQuester]

Reposting this awesoem analysis of Eltshan's character from Rinehart; I added a few of his other comments to the last paragraph, but everything else is from the OP.

I've seen a lot of people say that Eldigan is the worst of the Camus archetypes. I don't agree with this statement at all; in fact, I would go so far as to say that he is actually a good character.

The main flaw that most people find with Eldigan is that he stays loyal to a tyrannical and abusive king. While this is definitely a correct characterization of Chagall, it is actually no worse than the majority of the various different rulers in Jugdral. Leptor and Langbart in Grandbell are extremely corrupt and actively conspiring against the throne; Verdane is widely recognized as a country of lawless barbarians; Silesia is undergoing an internal power struggle between brothers who wouldn't hesitate to even kill each other; Issac is in the middle of a hopeless war caused by a rogue army; Thracia's king is ruthless and willing to commit war crimes for his country. During this time period, Jugdral is basically a cesspool of corruption and political intrigue. Agustria is no different.

On top of this, Agustria's relationship with Grandbell is extremely tense, especially after Sigurd takes over Verdane. "The lords of Agustria expressed strong anti-Grannvale sentiment." (Chapter 2) Eldigan may be friends with Sigurd, but his loyalty is above all to the country of Agustria, not only because of his personality but also because the history of the Mystletainn binds him to the crown.

Furthermore, Grandbell's occupation of Agustria did not sit well with the citizens. "In a half year's time, the officials dispatched to Agustria became exceedingly reckless, and began to abuse the power they were entrusted with." (Chapter 3) For a foreign country to invade you because your own rulers are corrupt, only to turn around and apply the same corrupt practices themselves, would certainly cause the population to hate Grandbell even more. Sigurd may not have had a part in it, but as far as Eldigan is concerned, Sigurd represents Grandbell and is responsible for his country's actions. The fact that Sigurd wipes out Agustria's lords and takes on bandits in the name of justice, yet is incapable or unwilling to do anything about Grandbell's own corrupt officials, is surely hypocritical in Eldigan's view.

I don't think Eldigan ever lost his trust in Sigurd, but he simply got tired of the excuses. "Sigurd, I've heard enough." (Chapter 3) To Eldigan, while Chagall may be an incompetent idiot, he is no worse than being slowly suffocated to death by Grandbell's occupation.

[i'm not saying he made perfect decisions...Eldigan's biggest flaw is his adherence to old traditions, which causes him to be overly loyal to a crappy king. This is exactly what makes a Camus archetype.] Eldigan fits perfectly in the first generation of Holy War; he's a tragic character in a tragic game

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[FionordeQuester]

Reposting this awesome analysis of Eltshan's character from Rinehart; I added a few of his other comments to the last paragraph, but everything else is from the OP.

I've seen a lot of people say that Eldigan is the worst of the Camus archetypes. I don't agree with this statement at all; in fact, I would go so far as to say that he is actually a good character.

The main flaw that most people find with Eldigan is that he stays loyal to a tyrannical and abusive king. While this is definitely a correct characterization of Chagall, it is actually no worse than the majority of the various different rulers in Jugdral. Leptor and Langbart in Grandbell are extremely corrupt and actively conspiring against the throne; Verdane is widely recognized as a country of lawless barbarians; Silesia is undergoing an internal power struggle between brothers who wouldn't hesitate to even kill each other; Issac is in the middle of a hopeless war caused by a rogue army; Thracia's king is ruthless and willing to commit war crimes for his country. During this time period, Jugdral is basically a cesspool of corruption and political intrigue. Agustria is no different.

On top of this, Agustria's relationship with Grandbell is extremely tense, especially after Sigurd takes over Verdane. "The lords of Agustria expressed strong anti-Grannvale sentiment." (Chapter 2) Eldigan may be friends with Sigurd, but his loyalty is above all to the country of Agustria, not only because of his personality but also because the history of the Mystletainn binds him to the crown.

Furthermore, Grandbell's occupation of Agustria did not sit well with the citizens. "In a half year's time, the officials dispatched to Agustria became exceedingly reckless, and began to abuse the power they were entrusted with." (Chapter 3) For a foreign country to invade you because your own rulers are corrupt, only to turn around and apply the same corrupt practices themselves, would certainly cause the population to hate Grandbell even more. Sigurd may not have had a part in it, but as far as Eldigan is concerned, Sigurd represents Grandbell and is responsible for his country's actions. The fact that Sigurd wipes out Agustria's lords and takes on bandits in the name of justice, yet is incapable or unwilling to do anything about Grandbell's own corrupt officials, is surely hypocritical in Eldigan's view.

I don't think Eldigan ever lost his trust in Sigurd, but he simply got tired of the excuses. "Sigurd, I've heard enough." (Chapter 3) To Eldigan, while Chagall may be an incompetent idiot, he is no worse than being slowly suffocated to death by Grandbell's occupation.

[i'm not saying he made perfect decisions...Eldigan's biggest flaw is his adherence to old traditions, which causes him to be overly loyal to a crappy king. This is exactly what makes a Camus archetype.] Eldigan fits perfectly in the first generation of Holy War; he's a tragic character in a tragic game

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

Reposting this awesome analysis of Eltshan's character from Rinehart; I added a few of his other comments to the last paragraph, but everything else is from the OP.

His most prudent action would have been to kill Chagall and crown himself king. Something a portion of the populace wants based on some village convos (I think). But really expecting someone to commit treason and risk the entire stability of their country by waging a civil war during a hostile takeover is asking a bit too much. It's still probably the most sensible thing but the guy shouldn't be condemned as an idiot for not doing it.

Actually the most sensible thing might have been to say feck it all and defect to Leinster. Pretty much the only stable country during the first gen (and even they have to deal with regular war with Thracia).

[FionordeQuester]

His most prudent action would have been to kill Chagall and crown himself king. Something a portion of the populace wants based on some village convos (I think). But really expecting someone to commit treason and risk the entire stability of their country by waging a civil war during a hostile takeover is asking a bit too much. It's still probably the most sensible thing but the guy shouldn't be condemned as an idiot for not doing it.

Well...I don't think he would have to go THAT far; I mean, they do have jails. But yeah, I get what you mean; I'm not sure he'd even NEED the Civil War, but, I can see how the thought would scare him.

Speaking of which...I actually DO kind of wonder if he could pull it off. That'd be a cool question to have answered if there happen to be any history buffs in here. As far as I can tell:

1) The guy's got more charisma in his left ear than Chagall's got in his entire body

2) He's got command of Agustria's strongest military power, while Chagall seems to rely almost exclusively on mercenaries.

3) He's got the perfect alibi (I was in jail while everyone else were being idiots; just ask Sigurd, he can vouch for me.)

4) He had even King Azmur's support (Sigurd told Lachesis this; Azmur stated that his survival was important for any upcoming peace negotiations).

5) I'm guessing he could cut a deal with Sigurd in order to get Grannvale's support; so he may be able to have THEIR help as well.

6) Most importantly, the people are just about dying for someone who can get them out of the mess they're in. So if Hitler, of all people, could grab power under those circumstances, I don't think Eltshan would have trouble. The people would probably be willing to accept any kind of explanation as long as it meant the hope of future prosperity.

Would that be enough to have a semi-peaceful transference of power? Or would there still be a lot of bloodshed?

Edited August 21, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Alastor15243]

Honestly, arguing that Eldigan is the worst member of the Camus archetype is... quite the statement when Xander is also a member of it. The sheer lengths you have to go to to convince Xander to go against one of the most cartoonishly evil villains in fire emblem history is absolutely hilarious.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Jotari]

Chagall is still king though and people are expected to obey the king without question (as Eltshan's own actions clearly show). Medieval societies view kings as having divine right over their subjects, I imagine that;s doubly true in Jugdral where most leaders literally do have magic powers granted by godlike figures. Though in this particular case that belief would probably help Eltshan a good deal since he actually has Holy Blood. Still though, I can't recall one occasion in history where a monarch was successfully deposed and kept alive that didn't result in quite a bit of blood shed.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Honestly, arguing that Eldigan is the worst member of the Camus archetype is... quite the statement when Xander is also a member of it. The sheer lengths you have to go to to convince Xander to go against one of the most cartoonishly evil villains in fire emblem history is absolutely hilarious.

well gooron is also xander's father.

meanwhile chagall has murdered his own father and eldigan seems to admit this, but still defends him.

granted Bryce also did this to Ashnard when Ashnard flat out said "yeah i killed my dad, what are you going to do about it?"

granted Ashnard could beat Bryce.

Edited August 21, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Alastor15243]

well gooron is also xander's father.

meanwhile chagall has murdered his own father and eldigan seems to admit this, but still defends him.

granted Bryce also did this to Ashnard when Ashnard flat out said "yeah i killed my dad, what are you going to do about it?"

granted Ashnard could beat Bryce.

And Xander says he somehow believed his father would turn back to normal once Hoshido was conquered, and he doesn't really explain... any... of his train of thought behind that.

Not to mention that the entire war is being fought for no reason whatsoever. They say in birthright that it was a food shortage, but Ryoma literally didn't know anything about this food shortage until Silas brings it up, and then he immediately resolves to give food aid. The only semblance of a justification for the war was never even brought up at any royal meeting or told to anybody in Hoshido in any capacity, otherwise there would be no food shortage. Garon just went straight to war for absolutely no reason. Nohr has literally nothing to gain from fighting this war and everything to lose, and there's no way Xander can't know that, and yet he chooses to indulge his father's obvious madness in the insane belief that conquering a country and killing thousands of innocent people will make Garon kind again rather than dethrone him and try to help him some other way.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Alastor15243

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i kinda get what Xander means tho.

I mean, i have a pretty bad father too, not like a terrible person, but definitely flawed to the point where i'd rather not interact with him more then i have too.

but, i don't think i'd ever could want to side to kill him just because he's a bad person and has done some bad stuff, because family bonds are a complex thing.

also the crown prince has a lot more responsibility to the royal blood line then some knight that's not connected to it.

alot of people are really unfair to xander but i can totally see what they were going for, i guess too many people either grew up without fathers or had perfect ones.

I must admit that makes me more then abit envious.

Edited August 21, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Moblin Major General]

And Xander says he somehow believed his father would turn back to normal once Hoshido was conquered, and he doesn't really explain... any... of his train of thought behind that.

Not to mention that the entire war is being fought for no reason whatsoever. They say in birthright that it was a food shortage, but Ryoma literally didn't know anything about this food shortage until Silas brings it up, and then he immediately resolves to give food aid. The only semblance of a justification for the war was never even brought up at any royal meeting or told to anybody in Hoshido in any capacity, otherwise there would be no food shortage. Garon just went straight to war for absolutely no reason. Nohr has literally nothing to gain from fighting this war and everything to lose, and there's no way Xander can't know that, and yet he chooses to indulge his father's obvious madness in the insane belief that conquering a country and killing thousands of innocent people will make Garon kind again rather than dethrone him and try to help him some other way.

Dragons. That's all that needs to be said. If it weren't for Draco ex machina, a lot of the things that happen in FE wouldn't happen. Not to mention Anankos can almost manipulate everyone except for, ironically, his own 2 children, who wouldn't have been useful to him anyway.

[Alastor15243]

i kinda get what Xander means tho.

I mean, i have a pretty bad father too, not like a terrible person, but definitely flawed to the point where i'd rather not interact with him more then i have too.

but, i don't think i'd ever could want to side to kill him just because he's a bad person and has done some bad stuff, because family bonds are a complex thing.

also the crown prince has a lot more responsibility to the royal blood line then some knight that's not connected to it.

alot of people are really unfair to xander but i can totally see what they were going for, i guess too many people either grew up without fathers or had perfect ones.

I must admit that makes me more then abit envious.

And your perspective wouldn't change if your father were a mass murderer?

If your adoptive sibling told you your father killed your adoptive sibling's mother in an attempt to kill them? Would you fight this sibling to the death to defend him? Would you keep doing this even after you accidentally kill your little sister when she tries to stop you from fighting? Would you do all of this even when a conversation with you in the afterlife would reveal that you realized at this point that your father was evil?

Edited August 21, 2016 by Alastor15243

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

And your perspective wouldn't change if your father were a mass murderer?

thats really hard to say, mostly because i can't imaged the guy as one.

even then i don't think i could unless my life was threaten by him.

i bet xander thought the same thing, i dunno its hard to defend fates because writing.

Edited August 21, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[FionordeQuester]

Still though, I can't recall one occasion in history where a monarch was successfully deposed and kept alive that didn't result in quite a bit of blood shed.

Well...I believe that happened to Napolean twice. He got exiled to Elba once, got out, rebuilt his military to 200,000 guys, started another offensive, got beaten yet again...and then Britain exiled him to St. Elba, where he stayed until his eventual death. I'm thinking the latter would be an example, wouldn't it?

Edited August 21, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

Well...I believe that happened to Napolean twice. He got exiled to Elba once, got out, rebuilt his military to 200,000 guys, started another offensive, got beaten yet again...and then Britain exiled him to St. Elba, where he stayed until his eventual death. I'm thinking the latter would be an example, wouldn't it?

Both occasions only happened after he was defeated in battle and surrendered. It was a military victory rather than a coup. Eltshan would likely want to avoid raising an army against Shagall and fighting a force of his own country men, which was my original point. But speaking of which, I believe Napoleons reconquering of France where he just walked right into Paris and declared it is was relatively bloodless and left what ever numbered Louis alive.

[spoiler=Regarding Xander]

Also I think the worst thing about Xander I think is that in order to have him fight on your side in Conquest, it's not a case of making him open his eyes and see the insanity of following such a man, but proving that the man isn't his father. It's like suddenly killing thousands of innocents isn't super okay if it's not your family doing it. It makes his defection seem pretty out of character when you eventually get to Revelations. Conquest's entire plot should have been about breaking the entire concept of the Camus archetype by giving the player a very devout Camus with a genuine reason for staying loyal (as family is, as Xander can point out that Corrin remained with them for this reason) and then slowly breaking them down throughout the game by pointing out the fallacy of such logic, then finally getting everyone on the right side for the last few chapters. I'm actually fine with him in Birthright though sine in general you don't get to see him as much and when you do he's clearly struggling with the issue. I also get the impression he threw his fight with Corrin after Elise died. I mean Corrin wasn't able to touch him until she kicked it and suddenly you have a very angry Corrin fighting a pretty bummed out Xander (and it was a pretty goddamn easy fight in terms of gameplay).

Edited August 21, 2016 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

[spoiler=Regarding Xander]

Also I think the worst thing about Xander I think is that in order to have him fight on your side in Conquest, it's not a case of making him open his eyes and see the insanity of following such a man, but proving that the man isn't his father. It's like suddenly killing thousands of innocents isn't super okay if it's not your family doing it. It makes his defection seem pretty out of character when you eventually get to Revelations. Conquest's entire plot should have been about breaking the entire concept of the Camus archetype by giving the player a very devout Camus with a genuine reason for staying loyal (as family is, as Xander can point out that Corrin remained with them for this reason) and then slowly breaking them down throughout the game by pointing out the fallacy of such logic, then finally getting everyone on the right side for the last few chapters. I'm actually fine with him in Birthright though sine in general you don't get to see him as much and when you do he's clearly struggling with the issue. I also get the impression he threw his fight with Corrin after Elise died. I mean Corrin wasn't able to touch him until she kicked it and suddenly you have a very angry Corrin fighting a pretty bummed out Xander (and it was a pretty goddamn easy fight in terms of gameplay).

That would be interesting, but I honestly think that, at least in the case of the other royal siblings, they should have had their eyes opened to the fact that Garon had to be stopped very early on. They pretty much can't go through any character development without knowing that, and keeping them all out of the loop really stunts them as characters and prevents them from contributing much of anything interesting to the main plot until the final chapters, which is just... lame.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Alastor15243

[FionordeQuester]

And here's a good analysis by Melth, the author of the Max Rank FE7 and FE6 LPs on Something Awful. He "somewhat specializes" in antiquity and Italian history, and also "knows a good amount, about world history in every era". So I figured he'd be a good guy to ask about the logistics of Eltshan seizing power, and whether or not he could have done so without making the citizens of Agustria citizen. This is what he has to say, for anyone curious (and I know this is nerdy stuff, so you don't have to read)...

...It's hard to give a clear answer to [whether or not Eltshan could have seized power in a relatively peaceful manner] because ultimately this is a fictional country and we don't really know much about its culture and history and economy and whatnot. In real life, coups and usurpations and revolutions and civil wars are always really complicated and usually wind up with more than two sides and sometimes years or decades of sporadic fighting after the fact.

However, it sounds like Eltshan could probably have seized power smoothly and with relatively little bloodshed. One of my favorite authors is Machiavelli (because he writes amazingly clearly about complicated ideas and because he uses lots of interesting historical examples of everything he talks about) and he talks a great deal about how to successfully take and hold power. One thing he emphasizes is that it is absolutely necessary to quickly wipe out the whole family of whoever you are overthrowing so that they don't try to avenge him years later or aren't used as pawns and figureheads against you. By the sound of it, the rest of the royal house are all already dead so there aren't any relatives of Shagaal to kill off. But Shagaal himself has to die because it is REALLY easy to take back over a country you once ruled.

Now it sounds like Eltshan will have popular support- that's absolutely essential. If he can lower their taxes a little (difficult in wartime, but maybe possible if his friendship with Sigurd lets them make peace immediately) and not shake things up too much, he should be able to keep that pretty easily.

He'll probably have enemies among the nobility because they won't see him as better than them and will think they should be king instead and so forth. In particular, anyone who would have benefited personally from Shagaal's rule will be an enemy. They need to be either killed or befriended but made less powerful quickly. Really this is the big thing, Eltshan's enemies would be whoever Shagaal would have empowered or enriched. If they can be made not a threat, then he shouldn't have anything to worry about in the near term.

Of course, in the future, this series of usurpations is likely to be used as an excuse for uprisings and whatnot for decades, but there's not much that can be done about that- except to make sure there's no one who wants to start an uprising to begin with.

So basically, Eltshan could have saved Agustria...but only by doing several things that would have been hilariously out of character for him. He'd have to be ruthless, politically savvy, be a big picture thinker, AND be willing to kill the very man he had sworn to serve. And he would, indeed, want to kill him; Sigurd already showed mercy on him once, and look how THAT turned out!

Edited August 24, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

That's pretty much the assertion I was making. I requote a portion of my first comment, "expecting someone to commit treason and risk the entire stability of their country by waging a civil war during a hostile takeover is asking a bit too much. It's still probably the most sensible thing but the guy shouldn't be condemned as an idiot for not doing it."

[FionordeQuester]

That's pretty much the assertion I was making. I requote a portion of my first comment, "expecting someone to commit treason and risk the entire stability of their country by waging a civil war during a hostile takeover is asking a bit too much. It's still probably the most sensible thing but the guy shouldn't be condemned as an idiot for not doing it."

Indeed...you weren't thinking that I was ignoring you, were you? I just realized that what I posted may have come across that way; actually, I was simply attempting to share a cool post from someone who I know is very well-researched on the matters :( ...

[Jotari]

Indeed...you weren't thinking that I was ignoring you, were you? I just realized that what I posted may have come across that way; actually, I was simply attempting to share a cool post from someone who I know is very well-researched on the matters :( ...

No, no. Not at all. I was just reasserting my own statement in regards to the new one. If anything it was pretty egotistical of me!

[FionordeQuester]

Arrogant? Oh no; I know what it feels like to post something, only for it to be seemingly forgotten. It's like that one time where I made a thread specifically asking about how Gandolf and Co. had, had a debate start in it, had bookofholsety himself enter the thread...and then promptly leave, without doing anything to address my question >_>.

Believe me, I know the feeling.

[Tetragrammaton]

I think it's my fault, bookofholsety only replied to my post and ignored yours.

So basically, Eltshan could have saved Agustria...but only by doing several things that would have been hilariously out of character for him. He'd have to be ruthless, politically savvy, be a big picture thinker, AND be willing to kill the very man he had sworn to serve. And he would, indeed, want to kill him; Sigurd already showed mercy on him once, and look how THAT turned out!

Eltoshan is not Alvis, he can't do what Alvis willing to do.

Because of his naive personality he doesn't get along with other Agustrian lords, he will have to face all of Agustrian military if he want to try that method.

Edited August 24, 2016 by hanhnn