Charleston Church Massacre

[Baldrick]

There's not much to discuss, nobody in their right mind would defend this horrific act.

I never want to wake up to news of any more of these massacres ever again. Does that make me "disgusting and vile"?

Edited June 20, 2015 by Baldrick

[I.M. Gei]

http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txtINTERRUPTING THIS INTERESTING GUN CHAT who wanted to see roof's crazy elliot rodger-style manifesto, except against black people instead of hawt girls who won't date him

I have great respent for the East Asian races. Even if we were to go extinct they could carry something on. They are by nature very racist and could be great allies of the White race. I am not opposed at all to allies with the Northeast Asian races.

as an east asian man i wish this guy and his ilk would fuck off instead of saying that we're The Good Ones™ and honourary whites in their worldview

I dont pretend to understand why jews do what they do. They are enigma.

because of course he'd say something like this

Edited June 20, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Phoenix Wright]

i think, above all political issues being talked about with respect to this case, what this tragedy shows is that the united states is still a place with very real and very dangerous systemic racism, despite the moans and groans of people who think otherwise. gun control can go one way or another, but what's obvious is that the issue of eradicating racism and xenophobia in a nation that brags about it's acceptance of other cultures and peoples should hold high priority ranging from local governments all the way to the federal government.

[blah the Prussian]

http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txtINTERRUPTING THIS INTERESTING GUN CHAT who wanted to see roof's crazy elliot rodger-style manifesto, except against black people instead of hawt girls who won't date him

as an east asian man i wish this guy and his ilk would fuck off instead of saying that we're The Good Ones™ and honourary whites in their worldview

because of course he'd say something like this

Wow. That was like Mien Kamf lite. This again raises the problem of Confederate apologist. Notice how he argued that slaves were treated well? That's a staple ConAp argument. Again, the way to solve this is through a better education system. Imitating Germany's coverage of the Nazi era would be a good way to start.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, modern day Germans overall seem to be ashamed of the Nazi era Germany, whereas many in the South seem to have a sense of pride about the Confederacy for whatever reasons.

[I.M. Gei]

Wow. That was like Mien Kamf lite. This again raises the problem of Confederate apologist. Notice how he argued that slaves were treated well? That's a staple ConAp argument. Again, the way to solve this is through a better education system. Imitating Germany's coverage of the Nazi era would be a good way to start.

i'm not sure how much good school would have done him; a thing about modern neo-nazis and far-right racists is that increasingly they congregate in extremist echo chamber sites like stormfront and chimpout and /pol/ and the really ugly parts of reddit. (free republic kinda counts too, but that site's mainly populated by 70-something year olds angry at the world for passing them by. the bad parts of reddit in particular are far more alarming, since they're just as reactionary but they're still young and in a far better position to influence society.) it's not like the 1990s when there were militias in every backwoods part of the country. by his own admission, roof first came to reinforce the views he has after seeing something from a Council of Conservative Citizens link (for the uninitiated, this site has been marked as a hate site by the SPLC).

it's very possible he always had these views, or at least sympathy for these views, but sought out sites that would reinforce them

Edited June 20, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[blah the Prussian]

i'm not sure how much good school would have done him; a thing about modern neo-nazis and far-right racists is that increasingly they congregate in extremist echo chamber sites like stormfront and chimpout and /pol/ and the really ugly parts of reddit. (free republic kinda counts too, but that site's mainly populated by 70-something year olds angry at the world for passing them by. the bad parts of reddit in particular are far more alarming, since they're just as reactionary but they're still young and in a far better position to influence society.) it's not like the 1990s when there were militias in every backwoods part of the country. by his own admission, roof first came to reinforce the views he has after seeing something from a Council of Conservative Citizens link (for the uninitiated, this site has been marked as a hate site by the SPLC).

it's very possible he always had these views, or at least sympathy for these views, but sought out sites that would reinforce them

Oh no, I'm not going to pretend like we can change the opinions of a bunch of skinheads, but if normal, not openly racist southerners see the truth about the Confederacy and thus about racism it will be a step in the right direction.

[Crysta]

I'm not sure how you can do that. The arguments from my southern friends regarding, say, the hanging the Confederate flag everywhere are mostly:

1) Heritage (and being proud of it I guess?)

2) The Civil War was entirely about State's Rights (lol)

Personally I don't get it. Said State Rights involved slavery.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Crysta

[I.M. Gei]

I'm not sure how you can do that. The arguments from my southern friends regarding, say, the hanging the Confederate flag everywhere are mostly:

1) Heritage (and being proud of it I guess?)

2) The Civil War was entirely about State's Rights (lol)

Personally I don't get it. Said State Rights involved slavery.

yeah they're counting on you not picking up on the whole state's rights dog-whistle

folks who invoke it look back fondly on the days when black folks were treated like property or at the very least, jim crow

[blah the Prussian]

I'm not sure how you can do that. The arguments from my southern friends regarding, say, the hanging the Confederate flag everywhere are mostly:

1) Heritage (and being proud of it I guess?)

2) The Civil War was entirely about State's Rights (lol)

Personally I don't get it. Said State Rights involved slavery.

Oh, heritage is right. It's a shameful heritage, to be sure. The issue is that there would need to be some form of standardized Federal education system, and good luck getting the a South to sign onto that. You need a leader that's willing to do something like this. The Confederate flag should be banned, IMO. It represents a nation that broke off from the US illegally. Thus, to fly it represents loyalty to said nation, and thus treason. The banning of the flag would be a good first step to the alteration of the Southern culture. After that... fuck if I know.

Edit: holy shit I'm actually in complete agreement with Chiki.

Edited June 20, 2015 by blah2127

[ZemZem]

http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txtINTERRUPTING THIS INTERESTING GUN CHAT who wanted to see roof's crazy elliot rodger-style manifesto, except against black people instead of hawt girls who won't date him

as an east asian man i wish this guy and his ilk would fuck off instead of saying that we're The Good Ones™ and honourary whites in their worldview

because of course he'd say something like this

Well this 'manifesto' was just about the most disgusting thing l've ever read.

[Balcerzak]

I'm in the process of splitting off the current gun control debate into a new thread, as it's at this point become a rather large topic shift from the original and there was a report about topic derail that I've been remiss in addressing, and actually complicit in continuing.

Nobody will be warned for off-topic, as it was a rather natural progression, but once the split is complete if the topic crops back up here in extended form again, instead of continuing in its new home, then things are fair game. Efforts are going to be made to better keep Serious Discussion threads on-point, and I need to clean up another topic as well that I've been neglecting during the work week, but remember if you see things drifting from the original topic, please report them so they can be handled appropriately.

If, after I'm done, there are some leftovers I missed, PM me personally about them. This topic should go back to discussion of the actual incident and more directly

[I.M. Gei]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/20/how-twitter-sleuths-found-dylann-roof-s-manifesto.htmlwell played, twitter goons

“As a communist,” Quangel said, “it is my duty and obligation to spend at least $49 to help ruin this guy’s insanity plea.”

[Life]

Yeah, modern day Germans overall seem to be ashamed of the Nazi era Germany, whereas many in the South seem to have a sense of pride about the Confederacy for whatever reasons.

Seem to be? Seriously? You're underplaying a nation's collective effort to ostracize and then murder 13 million people over the span of 13 years as "seem to be"?

The difference is that there is a terrible moral argument for one that can be logically made (Confederacy) if you base the argument upon economy while the other (Third Reich) can not and should not ever be justified.

I'm not applauding the Confederacy but I do understand their argument and it is logically sound (but morally fucked up). I work with a man who actually proudly displays a Confederate flag on his chef coat (in Tel Aviv, mind you) so I do know what I'm talking about. The issue is that a lot of post-Confederates turned the issue of slavery into one of racism by believing that black slaves crushed the South economically and culturally. There is a lot of ingrown hatred there.

[blah the Prussian]

Seem to be? Seriously? You're underplaying a nation's collective effort to ostracize and then murder 13 million people over the span of 13 years as "seem to be"?

The difference is that there is a terrible moral argument for one that can be logically made (Confederacy) if you base the argument upon economy while the other (Third Reich) can not and should not ever be justified.

I'm not applauding the Confederacy but I do understand their argument and it is logically sound (but morally fucked up). I work with a man who actually proudly displays a Confederate flag on his chef coat (in Tel Aviv, mind you) so I do know what I'm talking about. The issue is that a lot of post-Confederates turned the issue of slavery into one of racism by believing that black slaves crushed the South economically and culturally. There is a lot of ingrown hatred there.

Calm down, Germany has moved on from that. They payed reparations to Israel, the only nation in the European theatre compensated in any way for the people the Nazis murdered. We're suggesting that the methods used to denazify Germany could also be applied to the American South. You are right though, that slavery actually had a benefit, while it just seems baffling to me that Germany would waste so many potential soldiers and material against a people who could do them no harm. Lets just agree that slavery and the Holocaust were both bad and not start a victimization argument. We merely think that Germany has done a good job apologizing for its atrocities, especially when compared to nations who committed similar atrocities (Japan and Turkey) are considered. That example should be looked up to.

[-Cynthia-]

I use language such as 'seem to be' and 'generally' because A. I am not an expert on German culture and do not want to present myself as such B. There are likely to be a very small percentage of Germans who believe Nazi Germany was a good thing and I seek to avoid absolutes. The Confederacy and Third Reich obviously had a number of substantial differences, but as blah said, lessons can be learned from how the Third Reich was viewed by future generations of Germans as opposed to how the Confederacy was viewed by the South.

[Phoenix Wright]

i think this is a classic case of "nothing is good enough" for the foreseeable future. and honestly, i don't blame life or those similarly minded in israel and abroad. whilst i think it's unfair to blame germans today for what was done nearly 75 yrs. ago, the anger, sadness, and all emotions in between will linger on for a very long time.

[Espinosa]

Germany has already paid the ultimate price for what they've done so it's futile to dwell on such things in our times. In fact, if you were to look for Germans to blame for those crimes, you wouldn't find any - they're all gone. The great German spirit and culture have perished all because of one moustached fucker, and there's an entirely new country trying to start over from its rotten corpse. And there's really no other way out but to start over.

[Klokinator]

Germany has already paid the ultimate price for what they've done so it's futile to dwell on such things in our times. In fact, if you were to look for Germans to blame for those crimes, you wouldn't find any - they're all gone. The great German spirit and culture have perished all because of one moustached fucker, and there's an entirely new country trying to start over from its rotten corpse. And there's really no other way out but to start over.

You do realize it wasn't just Hitler, right? It was a good portion of the top brass as well. Just because his personality drew them in doesn't absolve them of blame. There's plenty of evidence to support he was really a bigger figurehead than man of action too, meaning he was the puppet of someone or a group of others.

[blah the Prussian]

You do realize it wasn't just Hitler, right? It was a good portion of the top brass as well. Just because his personality drew them in doesn't absolve them of blame. There's plenty of evidence to support he was really a bigger figurehead than man of action too, meaning he was the puppet of someone or a group of others.

I think he was using hyperbole. It doesn't matter in any case, as Himmler and Goering are gone as well.

[I.M. Gei]

at the end of the day, the confederate flag itself is more symbolic than anything. it isn't nearly as relevant as rhetoric about how black people are "taking over ARE COUNTRY and raping white women" and the whole "black on white crime" talking point which, by his own admission, was roof's first step down the white supremacist rabbit hole—rhetoric which, by the way, you'll find millions of americans, both in and out of the south, taking completely at face value, and which you can find being trumpeted from sites like drudge, or figures like o'reilly talking about how "the white establishment is now the minority", or through sites like /pol/ and parts of imgur and reddit

i've said this already, but there's a significant segment of our society that subscribes to racial views not unlike roof's. he simply followed these views to their conclusion when he shot up the church in charleston

[Crysta]

I have friends and family who live in the South who like the flag and would be resistant to getting it banned or removed because it's their roots, but I have also told said friends and family that kind of easy to say when your heritage didn't include being enslaved by the people who sported that emblem while trying to fight a war to keep them in said enslavement.

Then they go "oh I have a black friend who doesn't mind it!" and I sort of tune them out at that point.

I think, by and large, they simply don't care what it means to anyone outside of their... well, clan. Politicians are disinclined to alienate them because they need their votes, so unless there's some kind of awakening that makes them care (this massacre isn't it, which is sad), it's staying for a long time.

And, yeah, just one look at a thread on stormfront.org will confirm Gei's belief that the white supremacist bloc is much bigger than most people think. They're just not outside wearing white hoods and burning crosses any more (well, most of them aren't).

[I.M. Gei]

tbf stormfront doesn't have a particularly large active memberbase, from what i've heard, though having upwards of a hundred people killed by its members (breivik's massacre in oslo four years ago included) is pretty alarming for any forum, much less one its size

perhaps the biggest danger is how they use much more popular corners of the web like /pol/ and reddit and imgur as beachheads from which to spread their views and possibly convert those who have sympathies for their views

Edited June 22, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Eail]

Can't say much about reddit or imgur, but the stormfags are mocked fairly regularly on /pol/ at least, if you understand the language of /pol/. While there's always going to be 'muh kikes' talk and such, the Ben "The Racial Pain Hurricane" Garrison shit, and stuff like that mostly seems to be an attempt to out shitpost the others moreso than actually putting any faith behind it.

/pol/ is a swirling storm of topics that can range from fairly competent discussions regarding current politics (especially /britpol/ for some odd reason) down to Ben "Three Reichs and You're Out" Garrison comic edits.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Eail

[blah the Prussian]

At this point, I'm tempted to say that a banning of white supremacy and other hate groups is the way to go.