Charleston Church Massacre

[Phoenix Wright]

I already expressed my discontent with what he did. Not sure what you're trying to imply with my words here.

i assume it's because you said "black america," which, in all honesty, is a really weird way to phrase "the black community."

i don't get why these topics get posted in sd. no one who's voice matters is going to disagree that this is a tragedy, and an overwhelming majority will agree that the media's coverage of the tragedy/act of terrorism/hate crime is mediocre at best. everyone who is an ally should be disgusted with the actions of this racist man, not just the black community.

[Klokinator]

Why would we be disgusted with the black community in the first place? They're the victims here.

I mean, I know black-on-black crime is the new buzzword these days, but since that's mostly irrelevant to this particular shooting...

[I.M. Gei]

Of course Black America™ is gonna be fucking pissed. How many african-american young men got shot by the police after doing way less than that shithead did?

an oldie, but a goodie

Also have we talked about Stormfront Roof saying "I have to do this, you're raping our women and taking over our country" as he shot his victims, or how he talked about how much he loved segregation and wanted to start a second civil war with his roommate

because seriously lmfao at anyone seriously trying to claim this shooting wasn't racially motivated

Edited June 19, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Skynstein]

This incident was indeed awful, and I think the manager of the store I work at is related to one of the victims. It was mentioned today that he left to deal with a family tragedy that occurred on the same day, and the shooting was brought up right after.

But I hate that every time some blacks are killed, it's called a hate crime. Sure, some times a black is targeted simply because, but NOT ALWAYS. The kid was a stupidhead whose stupidhead father gave him the gun for his birthday, and the kid had been in trouble with the law before. Obviously that was going to lead to more trouble. It had nothing to do with race. I heard this all from the radio recently and my stepdad told me the same thing later on. He's pretty damn smart about this political stuff too, he's been educating me lately, kinda.

Don't believe anyone that says this was a hate crime. It wasn't.

Also, nobody ever calls it a hate crime if it's a bunch of white people getting killed! Yet blacks can be just as racist against white people. I should know, because guess who I, a white girl, was bullied by growing up? Black kids. No white kids ever teased or bullied me. Only the black ones did, and it turned me racist for a period of time. Thankfully, I changed my mindset.

In this case, it was a hate crime. The guy had racist background.

Also, just because blacks bullied you doesn't mean they were racist. If they didn't use racist offenses, they weren't being racist, they were just being jerks.

[blah the Prussian]

Yeah, this is pretty obviously racially motivated. What really sucks is that there is no discernible way to fix this. Wouldn't multiculturalism only make people like this more angry? Of course, a good way to start is to make normal people treat shit like this the right way. I don't know, I'm not a politician. It will be interesting to see the reaction of the European media, though.

[eclipse]

Yeah, this is pretty obviously racially motivated. What really sucks is that there is no discernible way to fix this. Wouldn't multiculturalism only make people like this more angry? Of course, a good way to start is to make normal people treat shit like this the right way. I don't know, I'm not a politician. It will be interesting to see the reaction of the European media, though.

I think Klok's suggestion is a good starting point. I have the most hope for educating the youngsters - no matter what race, humans are humans, and should be treated as such.

[blah the Prussian]

I think Klok's suggestion is a good starting point. I have the most hope for educating the youngsters - no matter what race, humans are humans, and should be treated as such.

The issue, I suppose, is that parents may resist it. Homeschooling could mean that they can brainwash a whole new generation of white supremacists.

[eclipse]

The issue, I suppose, is that parents may resist it. Homeschooling could mean that they can brainwash a whole new generation of white supremacists.

Even homeschooling must adhere to some sort of grading (the specifics vary by state, and I'm super-fuzzy about my own state). However, the number of parents that'll do it just to dodge integration will be far less than those who will see it in a public school. . .and I hope far less than those that choose to homeschool to avoid vaccination.

I don't think racism will be fully eliminated in my lifetime. . .but I'd like to see just how close it'll become!

[Espinosa]

Rampant American racism has always upset me very much. Hope it will be overcome with time and incidents such as these will not be heard of anymore.

[HK Motendra]

i assume it's because you said "black america," which, in all honesty, is a really weird way to phrase "the black community."

i don't get why these topics get posted in sd. no one who's voice matters is going to disagree that this is a tragedy, and an overwhelming majority will agree that the media's coverage of the tragedy/act of terrorism/hate crime is mediocre at best. everyone who is an ally should be disgusted with the actions of this racist man, not just the black community.

Why would we be disgusted with the black community in the first place? They're the victims here.

I mean, I know black-on-black crime is the new buzzword these days, but since that's mostly irrelevant to this particular shooting...

I understand, and am glad to see that the majority is on the same page about this tragedy. Perhaps it was a slip of pessimism on my part for what is yet to come, in terms of progress, in the struggle against racism. As a part of the black community myself, I've seen the radicals, and all it takes is one miss step, and I'd never hear the end of it, while after the initial shock of the incident has passed, people would just go on with the rest of their lives, as if nothing happened.

And then I come across situations like this tumblr post points out.

[Naughx]

It's kind of scary of how many active hate groups there is in the US.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Naughx

[Klokinator]

The issue, I suppose, is that parents may resist it. Homeschooling could mean that they can brainwash a whole new generation of white supremacists.

You're going about this completely the wrong way. I wasn't talking about homeschooling. Honestly more people should be homeschooling, but then again we should all be working ten hours a week and have the richest economy on Earth, but since the corporate masters don't want to pay everyone fairly, that won't happen. Not for a long time if ever.

No, the real problem is shitty parents. The generation that was born in the year 1900 was one of the most prosperous and financially secure generations of our time. They started having children during the Roaring Twenties, when Calvin Coolidge specifically put the country on a specific track that boosted our economy and blasted us upwards in the world's radar. They grew up with lots of time on their hands compared to their parents, men busted ass on the job and women actually stayed home and taught the kids proper etiquette since with all this sudden newfound wealth all over America, they desired to live like the richer people did. The majority of the people were middle class, something not seen in world history until that point.

Now, Calvin Coolidge was an incredible president and very rare for his time. He simply didn't believe in 'action', he believed in the power of inaction. Deregulate more, let private competitive ownership run its course. His presidency stabilized the nation by opening up more markets, which in turn increased general wealth, which in turn allowed people to have more time to raise children.

But then after Coolidge came the whole WWII thing, and a bunch of mostly corrupt presidents. Around this time, credit banking came into existence starting around the 60's and gaining in popularity until the 90's. The problem with the last 100 years is SO much has happened, it's extremely difficult to point at a single factor that killed this country's economy. If you look at the fall of Rome VS the path America is on, you see a ton of parallels, but the biggest thing is that it took rome nearly 700 years to grow up, die off, and collapse. America has only taken about 150 years to maybe 200 years, starting from our explosion into the industrial age. When the family structure (which was carefully managed and maintained by external forces I might add) collapsed, it led to a generation that had to pay off incredible debts. But around that time was also the explosion of cheap, easy fun and games and other entertainment, like TV and video games.

The last part is really important. Why get up and go teach the kids how to fish, or bond with them, when the football game is on TV? Why would the kids wanna go fishing with dad when Mario could be being played right now? Etc. Eventually, parents taught their kids and bonded with their kids less and less. Kids also felt a huge generational gap because mom and dad were soooo stupid and couldn't even understand basic technology like video games and they're soooooo oppressive. You know, kids always complain that their parents don't "get" them. The really weird thing is, for over 6,000 years of human history, this was never as true as it's been in just the last 30 to 40 years. How many people have parents, let alone grandparents who are completely confused by technology? There's a serious divide between each generation.

This divide leads to resentment on a scale never seen before, as well as a technological aptitude level that varies dramatically. Couple this with family breakdown, lack of discipline, rise of Political Correctness where suddenly the millennial generation are more sensitive towards how their words might affect others (Leading many kids to feel that parents are old fashioned, racist, sexist, etc), automation eliminating tons of jobs while workforce equality increases the number of people of both sexes looking for jobs, the destruction of marriage, etc... all of this is combining to create what will surely be one of the most sudden, disgusting collapses of a nation in history.

So when I say this shooter kid is a victim of a breakdown in family structure, I do mean it. I feel the same way about many different gang-bangers and others of that sort. We're being victimized on a level rarely seen throughout human history by external forces we can't even begin to comprehend. And how could we? With the amount of terrifying technological progress humanity has made since just the 1950's, we can't even comprehend how this would affect us for the next 200 years. And if you think THAT is bad, just wait until the predicted technological singularity when a single robot mind achieves the brainpower of a human, let alone when one robot achieves the brainpower of all of humanity combined. We're not prepared. We're advancing far too fast.

This kid is a cold blooded killer, but you would be correct to blame the parents. You'd also have to blame all the other parents as well. And if anyone is reading my post who is also a parent, I can only hope you're putting effort into raising your kids to be upstanding human beings, because whether or not they become some mass-shooter or not, they could say something or do something which leads to a series of events that eventually disturbs and warps an improperly trained mind. The reason these have become so common isn't the fault of guns, isn't the fault of games, isn't the fault of bad parenting, isn't because of schooling or homeschooling, and it isn't about an undercurrent of endemic racism, it's because of all of those factors at once. Treating one factor is just a band-aid. You have to fix all of them at once or the result will be unnoticeable.

[eclipse]

Edit so no double post: so Fox News is apparently calling this an anti Christian hate crime to try to link it to Islamic terrorism. Jesus Christ, need I say more? We need to stop shifting the responsibility away from those who deserve it, NOW.

WHAT. Just because it happened in a church doesn't mean that it's religiously motivated! If the shooter's background is any indication, this is racially motivated!

The story should be reported, and viewers should make up their own mind based off of the facts. The story should NOT be molded to fit a preconception!

[Klokinator]

Yep, that's the curse of the MainStreamMedia (MSM). You have to realize that the MSM is bought and owned already. We left the days of Walter Cronkite decades ago. Why give unbiased reporting on yourself if you're a billionaire? Divide and conquer. Buy out the media, slowly put in puppets that are just smart enough to say what you want them to, but just dumb enough to say nothing else. While I can't stand Faux News, make no mistake, CNN and NBC are also bought out and just as corrupt.

The expansion of government has always been and always will be the fall of a nation. History and current trends have always shown this. Power floats to the top and presses down on those below it. The only way to break it is to resist its constant attempts to take control.

[Nanami Touko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAYgKTvX1k&sns=fb

just gonna add this to the discussion

he's disappointingly right

no matter how much america stares at this, they won't do anything

and it's terrifying.

we've got examples of americans in this topic that stare directly at the issue and try to claim it's not what it is.

wonder how long it'll take to change.

Edited June 19, 2015 by I have opinions

[Rei Rei]

Trying to link this - terrorist - act to Muslims is not only wrong but cowardly.

Jon Stewart is fucking right in the money. The treatment a Muslim man, and the muslim community as whole, would get doing the exact same thing would obviously be completely different.

It seems the US authorities are afraid of linking the word "terrorist" to a white person.

[Balcerzak]

It seems the US authorities are afraid of linking the word "terrorist" to a white person.

Do you remember Timothy McVeigh? I don't think linking "terrorism" to an act has anything to do with race, but rather other factors. While this is undeniably a hate crime, nothing I've read suggests terrorism would be an accurate description of the crime here.

[Rei Rei]

Do you remember Timothy McVeigh? I don't think linking "terrorism" to an act has anything to do with race, but rather other factors. While this is undeniably a hate crime, nothing I've read suggests terrorism would be an accurate description of the crime here.

But you see, even though most terrorist acts are related to religion, couldn't there be terrorist acts connected to racial motivations?

On the FBI site we have this definition on Domestic Terrorism¹:

​Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

So what exactly is keeping this case from being considered a terrorist act, and not just a hate crime? Someone else in this thread said they aren't mutually exclusive, which I can understand.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Яei Яei

[Klokinator]

Yeah, and that's a crime on the part of the MSM (And who did I say owns them?). The MSM manipulates everything. Hell, it's not even hard to do. I learned how to manipulate my mother and her boyfriend easily. I'd tell the boyfriend "My mom said I could play videogames" and I'd tell my mom "Your boyfriend said I could play videogames" and for some reason, they rarely if ever questioned each other. If the MSM says "WHITE RACIST KILLS BLACK GUY" or "BLACK THUG GETS SHOT BY COPS BECAUSE HE'S A DRUGGIE STONER POTHEAD", that's manipulation. It sets an image in your mind. Black VS white, racial divide. We're all humans, yet the MSM does nothing but set us against each other.

And if for some reason you think that's okay, just ask yourself "What would Walter Cronkite say?".

It's pretty clear to anyone this is a terrorist act. The fact the media isn't labeling it as such doesn't mean it's not definitely 100% a terrorist act. But what do you do about it? Protest? Doesn't seem to do anything. You block traffic for 24 hours, everyone goes home and decides not to come back the next day. "Oh no, what a minor disturbance they've created" says the corporate masters. "Good thing time has shown they get bored and give up easily."

Egypt did it right. They rid themselves of the corrupt government, and they weren't broadcast on TV or talked about on the MSM very much for explicitly that reason. It's pretty much the only recourse we have left, good luck on actually getting 360 million people to do it though, operation divide and conquer is working flawlessly.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Klokinator

[blah the Prussian]

You're going about this completely the wrong way. I wasn't talking about homeschooling. Honestly more people should be homeschooling, but then again we should all be working ten hours a week and have the richest economy on Earth, but since the corporate masters don't want to pay everyone fairly, that won't happen. Not for a long time if ever.

No, the real problem is shitty parents. The generation that was born in the year 1900 was one of the most prosperous and financially secure generations of our time. They started having children during the Roaring Twenties, when Calvin Coolidge specifically put the country on a specific track that boosted our economy and blasted us upwards in the world's radar. They grew up with lots of time on their hands compared to their parents, men busted ass on the job and women actually stayed home and taught the kids proper etiquette since with all this sudden newfound wealth all over America, they desired to live like the richer people did. The majority of the people were middle class, something not seen in world history until that point.

Now, Calvin Coolidge was an incredible president and very rare for his time. He simply didn't believe in 'action', he believed in the power of inaction. Deregulate more, let private competitive ownership run its course. His presidency stabilized the nation by opening up more markets, which in turn increased general wealth, which in turn allowed people to have more time to raise children.

But then after Coolidge came the whole WWII thing, and a bunch of mostly corrupt presidents. Around this time, credit banking came into existence starting around the 60's and gaining in popularity until the 90's. The problem with the last 100 years is SO much has happened, it's extremely difficult to point at a single factor that killed this country's economy. If you look at the fall of Rome VS the path America is on, you see a ton of parallels, but the biggest thing is that it took rome nearly 700 years to grow up, die off, and collapse. America has only taken about 150 years to maybe 200 years, starting from our explosion into the industrial age. When the family structure (which was carefully managed and maintained by external forces I might add) collapsed, it led to a generation that had to pay off incredible debts. But around that time was also the explosion of cheap, easy fun and games and other entertainment, like TV and video games.

The last part is really important. Why get up and go teach the kids how to fish, or bond with them, when the football game is on TV? Why would the kids wanna go fishing with dad when Mario could be being played right now? Etc. Eventually, parents taught their kids and bonded with their kids less and less. Kids also felt a huge generational gap because mom and dad were soooo stupid and couldn't even understand basic technology like video games and they're soooooo oppressive. You know, kids always complain that their parents don't "get" them. The really weird thing is, for over 6,000 years of human history, this was never as true as it's been in just the last 30 to 40 years. How many people have parents, let alone grandparents who are completely confused by technology? There's a serious divide between each generation.

This divide leads to resentment on a scale never seen before, as well as a technological aptitude level that varies dramatically. Couple this with family breakdown, lack of discipline, rise of Political Correctness where suddenly the millennial generation are more sensitive towards how their words might affect others (Leading many kids to feel that parents are old fashioned, racist, sexist, etc), automation eliminating tons of jobs while workforce equality increases the number of people of both sexes looking for jobs, the destruction of marriage, etc... all of this is combining to create what will surely be one of the most sudden, disgusting collapses of a nation in history.

So when I say this shooter kid is a victim of a breakdown in family structure, I do mean it. I feel the same way about many different gang-bangers and others of that sort. We're being victimized on a level rarely seen throughout human history by external forces we can't even begin to comprehend. And how could we? With the amount of terrifying technological progress humanity has made since just the 1950's, we can't even comprehend how this would affect us for the next 200 years. And if you think THAT is bad, just wait until the predicted technological singularity when a single robot mind achieves the brainpower of a human, let alone when one robot achieves the brainpower of all of humanity combined. We're not prepared. We're advancing far too fast.

This kid is a cold blooded killer, but you would be correct to blame the parents. You'd also have to blame all the other parents as well. And if anyone is reading my post who is also a parent, I can only hope you're putting effort into raising your kids to be upstanding human beings, because whether or not they become some mass-shooter or not, they could say something or do something which leads to a series of events that eventually disturbs and warps an improperly trained mind. The reason these have become so common isn't the fault of guns, isn't the fault of games, isn't the fault of bad parenting, isn't because of schooling or homeschooling, and it isn't about an undercurrent of endemic racism, it's because of all of those factors at once. Treating one factor is just a band-aid. You have to fix all of them at once or the result will be unnoticeable.

I... really can't argue with that. Thanks for that.

@ I have opinions: I think the general problem that Jon Stewart is getting at is Confederate apologist as a whole. You see, the generation of southerners immediately after the Civil War were unwilling to accept that their fathers were traitors who fought to preserve one of the most evil institutions in history. It didn't help that the official US government policy was to let Southerners get away with little more than a slap on the wrist. This generation taught their opinions to future generations, and the general affect is to create a subtle form of racism that leads to general apathy to events like this. Education is the key to solving this problem, but to do that you'd need a standardized education system; reading southern textbooks is often outright sickening. It's complicated, to say the least.

[I.M. Gei]

on another note one has to seriously wonder just how many people in society writ large share Roof's views regarding black people, except he was the one who acted on his views instead of just posting about how many darkies he's going to shoot once RaHoWa arrives, on /pol/ or Stormfront or freep or wherever

just as, as someone else put it, a lot of europeans share breivik's views about how muslims are taking over europe, and white liberals and leftists are appeasers, with breivik acting on those views when he shot up the labour youth camp

Edited June 20, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Crysta]

Jane Elliot's blue-eye brown-eye experiments on YouTube are interesting to watch if you want to see how much in denial white people in general seem to be in relation to race issues.

We love to ignore it. The Republican presidential candidates certainly are. Fox News certainly will, but admittedly I don't go out of my way to watch that drivel. Not surprised that they're trying to put an Islamist/anti-Christian spin on it instead.

EDIT: And CNN and MSNBC aren't as bad. It's bad, but it's not equivalent just because you want it to be.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Crysta

[Klokinator]

EDIT: And CNN and MSNBC aren't as bad. It's bad, but it's not equivalent just because you want it to be.

Fox News perpetuates the BLACK PEOPLE ARE EVIL AND COPS ARE SAINTS drivel (And 'attacks on christianity' or 'wars on christmas') while the other two constantly use the gender pay gap and the 1-in-4 college girls will be raped myth, both of which have been thoroughly debunked. Both have their agendas for one political party or the other. Neither are trustworthy if they can't or won't fact check anything.

[Eail]

While most of the points I might personally make are already being made, I've got my own little addition to the conversation if you're all a willing bunch.

How do you lot feel about people like the Young Turks spinning off Southern Pride as a racist and hateful ideology? That the CSA Flag is just a piece of racist propaganda that has no deeper meaning?

Personally I find it rather disgusting but then again I'm actually from the South and have been exposed to what it means first hand. I'm interested in what a few of you Yanks might think about it.

[-Cynthia-]

While most of the points I might personally make are already being made, I've got my own little addition to the conversation if you're all a willing bunch.

How do you lot feel about people like the Young Turks spinning off Southern Pride as a racist and hateful ideology? That the CSA Flag is just a piece of racist propaganda that has no deeper meaning?

Personally I find it rather disgusting but then again I'm actually from the South and have been exposed to what it means first hand. I'm interested in what a few of you Yanks might think about it.

While not from the South, we actually did have a bit of a Confederate flag controversy at my high school. Symbols are tricky because they mean different things to different people. To some people, the flag is just a symbol of Southern pride. To others, it's a symbol of a racist and hateful ideology. So in reality, both sides are correct here.