The Princess on the Run: The Manster Rebellion and beyond with Altenna.

[Alazen]

As you already know, Trabant took Altenna with him after her parents were killed. She was raised to believe that Trabant was her birth father. Here's an alternate scenario:

How would history have been different had Ethlyn taken Leif with her instead of Altenna, who fled with Finn after Leinster Castle fell? Let's assume Trabant takes Leif into Thracia on similar grounds for taking Altenna.

Assuming her characterization is mostly the same, how would the rebellion and everything after it go? Being a woman, would she still be the top pick for a ruler in her own name (instead of having to marry a noble or royal like Deirdre did) after a successful rebellion? Would she be paired with Areone, even considering Linoan? What other differences would there be?

Edited June 23, 2015 by Alazen

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i'm almost certain Lief would've been dead as a baby if he was in her place due to not being able to wield the holy spear, which is what trabant wanted

[Alazen]

How would Trabant have known at the time though? Who gets Major Holy Blood in a set of siblings isn't restricted by birth order or sex. And the Brand appears at different ages in different places for different Holy Blooded people.

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeah, Altenna made it out of Yied alive only because she could eventually wield the spear. His subordinate even asked about killing her, which Trabant stated otherwise. So in this hypothetical Lief would be pretty much doomed.

How would Trabant have known at the time though? Who gets Major Holy Blood in a set of siblings isn't restricted by birth order or sex. And the Brand appears at different ages in different places for different Holy Blooded people.

Well, the first-born having Major is a lot more common to happen than otherwise. So if the Noba markings hadn't yet appeared then Trabant gambled it and payed off then. Then again, he was confident when he took her, so...

Putting that aside though, Altenna being the one to stay behind in Manster would no doubt bring up a lot of changes. Hmm, I can already see which some of them would be, but just in case I'll look over the Thraccia stuff to see what else...

Edited June 23, 2015 by Acacia Sgt

[Chalis]

I'm trying to remember where it's said that the sons were all killed subjugating a kingdom in Jugdral, that it wasn't considered cruelty but the way things were done. Had Leaf been carried in his mother's arms, while I think the best of Trabant if it holds true he would have been too desensitized to spare him.

as for why he spared Altenna at all, it had nothing to do with the Gaebolg, he just took it so the rightful user couldn't use it

Q: What led Trabant to raise Altenna?

A: Trabant is a person who tirelessly carried on the role of villain. For his beloved Thracian land, he would tarnish his name and resort to underhand tactics. In terms of the peoples’ view of him, it would seem that he is unbothered, but in reality he was an extremely passionate man. During his battle with Cuan, he made the mistake of killing Ethlin. He wasn’t a blood-thirsty person at heart and that event perhaps influenced his decision to raise Altenna. That’s what he probably thought at the beginning, but later he must have decided to raise Altenna as he knew she was an important figure to Thracia, and that’s why he later educated her to become a ruler. Maybe he also considered the possibility of one day letting her marry Areone. If he wasn’t born in Thracia, he would have been a true hero.

If Leif had been kidnapped instead, I guess he would have grown up with an inferiority complex for being unable to take up the spear and comparing himself to Areone. At least he'd have more regal etiquette. How Trabant would raise him is the real question. He was hard on Altenna because he expected a lot out of her but also feared she somehow remembered Yied. The difference between the siblings is a few years so maybe he wouldn't have that fear with Leif and given him more attention, though not necessarily any kinder. Since Trabant always intended to take Lenster, he could put it in Leif's head that he had to become strong enough to take it one day to earn his "father's" respect.

Altenna was never given a chance to depend on Areone or even meet him, I don't see a reason why she'd have any connection to him. Perhaps she ends up more socially balanced with a mother figure in Evyel. Or not, she actually did repress her memories in order to pretend she was family while in the care of Trabant, she probably would remember everything that happened at Lenster's fall. Chances are she sets her sights on Finn for emotional support from the get go. Additionally more taboo than anything I'm implying or in FE4, maybe Finn can hand down the Hero Lance to her. No? Okay. Even without the Gaebolg she'd be pretty powerful, and since she's older I think she'd have more commanding power than Leif at the point he was forced to make a move. Plus I don't think anyone would be looking for the daughter or at least think she has the ambition to take her homeland back.

As for throne inheritance, it's a little messy. Finn only recognized the holy spear and suddenly realized Cuan's daughter was still alive in the original. Altenna is the only heir in his mind, Leif surely must have perished long ago. Even if he sees the resemblance to his former lord and holds some suspicion, unless Trabant outs him as Cuan's son I don't see Lief being convinced. Altenna being the only one in line takes her place like she would in vanilla if Leif were killed in action. She didn't marry then either, Areone died no matter what, so a noble marriage isn't necessary in this case.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

I'm trying to remember where it's said that the sons were all killed subjugating a kingdom in Jugdral, that it wasn't considered cruelty but the way things were done. Had Leaf been carried in his mother's arms, while I think the best of Trabant if it holds true he would have been too desensitized to spare him.

as for why he spared Altenna at all, it had nothing to do with the Gaebolg, he just took it so the rightful user couldn't use it

If Leif had been kidnapped instead, I guess he would have grown up with an inferiority complex for being unable to take up the spear and comparing himself to Areone. At least he'd have more regal etiquette. How Trabant would raise him is the real question. He was hard on Altenna because he expected a lot out of her but also feared she somehow remembered Yied. The difference between the siblings is a few years so maybe he wouldn't have that fear with Leif and given him more attention, though not necessarily any kinder. Since Trabant always intended to take Lenster, he could put it in Leif's head that he had to become strong enough to take it one day to earn his "father's" respect.

Altenna was never given a chance to depend on Areone or even meet him, I don't see a reason why she'd have any connection to him. Perhaps she ends up more socially balanced with a mother figure in Evyel. Or not, she actually did repress her memories in order to pretend she was family while in the care of Trabant, she probably would remember everything that happened at Lenster's fall. Chances are she sets her sights on Finn for emotional support from the get go. Additionally more taboo than anything I'm implying or in FE4, maybe Finn can hand down the Hero Lance to her. No? Okay. Even without the Gaebolg she'd be pretty powerful, and since she's older I think she'd have more commanding power than Leif at the point he was forced to make a move. Plus I don't think anyone would be looking for the daughter or at least think she has the ambition to take her homeland back.

As for throne inheritance, it's a little messy. Finn only recognized the holy spear and suddenly realized Cuan's daughter was still alive in the original. Altenna is the only heir in his mind, Leif surely must have perished long ago. Even if he sees the resemblance to his former lord and holds some suspicion, unless Trabant outs him as Cuan's son I don't see Lief being convinced. Altenna being the only one in line takes her place like she would in vanilla if Leif were killed in action. She didn't marry then either, Areone died no matter what, so a noble marriage isn't necessary in this case.

The thing about killing male heirs came out of Treasure: "At the time [in war], any men in the enemy’s royal family, even children, were to be executed. The better case for women would be slavery, and the usual case was to be raped and murdered."

Travant is already better than his era in taking Altena home as his daughter and not as war booty or as a servant for Arion. With that and his "would've been a hero under different circumstances" as above in mind, Travant might have taken baby Leif back home with him thinking he'd be of more use alive than dead. So let's assume the best of Travant for this hypothetical scenario. I can definitely see Leif as the younger brother with the inferiority complex trying to win Dad!Travant's love/respect and usually coming up short. Might do some stupid things in the process.

Leif was two when Leonster was burned, which means Altena would've been five or so and definitely would've remembered it. Agreed with Chalis above that she'd almost certainly cling to Finn as her main emotional support-- she already adored him the way toddlers latch onto people. I don't think Finn would treat her exactly the same way he does Leif, though; Leif's his hope to unify Thracia under a male heir but Altena, even without the Gae Bolg, is a kinda/sorta living goddess and I think the whole "Nova reborn" business would factor a lot into AU!Altena's self-image. It'd probably work to her advantage in drawing people to her side if/when Altena started an actual rebellion. Throne inheritance is indeed messy and unless AU mechanics dictate that you kill Leif because he's too stubborn to recruit I think Altena would end up like Julia-- the major-blooded embodiment of legitimate power standing alongside and supporting her beloved brother, the ruler.

Altena's actually a pretty lousy military leader in FE4, losing control of her subordinates and then standing by while her troops all die, so her adventures before joining up with Seliph would probably go about as well as Leif's campaign did.

[bottlegnomes]

i'm almost certain Lief would've been dead as a baby if he was in her place due to not being able to wield the holy spear, which is what trabant wanted

Other people beat me to it, but I'm gonna add on: Travant taking Altenna for Gae Bolg was really only justification to his subordinates (and maybe himself). He really did it because of his feelings for Ethlin. I think Leif has a pretty good chance of not getting killed, as well. Travant might be harder on him, though, because, while Altenna reminded him of Ethlin, Leif would probably remind him of Quan. I don't think Travant had any ill will towards Quan as a person, but there was definite animosity over Quan being prince of a place that didn't suck and having Ethlin's love.

The thing about killing male heirs came out of Treasure: "At the time [in war], any men in the enemy’s royal family, even children, were to be executed. The better case for women would be slavery, and the usual case was to be raped and murdered."

Travant is already better than his era in taking Altena home as his daughter and not as war booty or as a servant for Arion. With that and his "would've been a hero under different circumstances" as above in mind, Travant might have taken baby Leif back home with him thinking he'd be of more use alive than dead. So let's assume the best of Travant for this hypothetical scenario. I can definitely see Leif as the younger brother with the inferiority complex trying to win Dad!Travant's love/respect and usually coming up short. Might do some stupid things in the process.

Leif was two when Leonster was burned, which means Altena would've been five or so and definitely would've remembered it. Agreed with Chalis above that she'd almost certainly cling to Finn as her main emotional support-- she already adored him the way toddlers latch onto people. I don't think Finn would treat her exactly the same way he does Leif, though; Leif's his hope to unify Thracia under a male heir but Altena, even without the Gae Bolg, is a kinda/sorta living goddess and I think the whole "Nova reborn" business would factor a lot into AU!Altena's self-image. It'd probably work to her advantage in drawing people to her side if/when Altena started an actual rebellion. Throne inheritance is indeed messy and unless AU mechanics dictate that you kill Leif because he's too stubborn to recruit I think Altena would end up like Julia-- the major-blooded embodiment of legitimate power standing alongside and supporting her beloved brother, the ruler.

Altena's actually a pretty lousy military leader in FE4, losing control of her subordinates and then standing by while her troops all die, so her adventures before joining up with Seliph would probably go about as well as Leif's campaign did.

This sounds about right. As for Leif being stubborn, I think part of that was because of how he was raised. He probably would've been a little less hard-headed in Altenna's shoes; she's not exactly Miss Easy-going and Reasonable herself from what I remember. So in that regard, I think their personalities would've been swapped.

The biggest question, IMO, is what would have changed about their classes? I'm guessing Leif would've been a high-level wyvern knight, but would Altenna have been a princess or a lance knight or something else? My gut instinct is lance knight since that's what Quan was (more or less), and it'd be weird for her to not be able to use lances until she promoted. In that case, she'd be better than Leif pre-promotion, but worse after and not as worth dumping a lot of resources into. Then again, maybe she'd be a princess who used lances instead of swords; that'd be cool. (Leif using swords in the first place seemed a bit of a stretch anyway.)

As for Leif, speaking purely from a game design POV, they would have made something up to have Finn recognize him and make him recruitable. Narratively, I'm not sure exactly how that would've happened. Maybe Travant gave him Gae Bolg as a sign of faith to motivate him to give his all despite not being able to use it? It's pretty flimsy, but it's something. Maybe Ethlin had a charm that Finn recognized? That seems more plausible.

Edited June 25, 2015 by bottlegnomes

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

The biggest question, IMO, is what would have changed about their classes? I'm guessing Leif would've been a high-level wyvern knight, but would Altenna have been a princess or a lance knight or something else? My gut instinct is lance knight since that's what Quan was (more or less), and it'd be weird for her to not be able to use lances until she promoted. In that case, she'd be better than Leif pre-promotion, but worse after and not as worth dumping a lot of resources into. Then again, maybe she'd be a princess who used lances instead of swords; that'd be cool. (Leif using swords in the first place seemed a bit of a stretch anyway.)

As for Leif, speaking purely from a game design POV, they would have made something up to have Finn recognize him and make him recruitable. Narratively, I'm not sure exactly how that would've happened. Maybe Travant gave him Gae Bolg as a sign of faith to motivate him to give his all despite not being able to use it? It's pretty flimsy, but it's something. Maybe Ethlin had a charm that Finn recognized? That seems more plausible.

ETA: Travant seemed to know a fair amount about Quan, Ethlyn, and even Finn as people even though they never shared screen time in FE4 until the massacre, almost like some backstory stuff got snipped out of the game. I do get the feeling he had ill will and even contempt toward Quan personally. It was mutual.

I figure Altena would've been a lance knight at base class. She's literally born to use lances, and with Finn prob'ly raising her to be Nova II it'd be her destiny to be death on a horse.

And then she and Finn ride off into an ambiguous sunset after the war.

Leif actually might work all right in his canonical Prince class-- he's got minor Baldur and minor Nova so really using swords vs lances is a toss-up. What if Ethlyn still had the Light Brand on her in Yied and Leif was using that? Not the slam-dunk of the Gae Bolg but he looks enough like his real parents that a little Quan/Ethlyn hybrid waving around the Light Brand would be highly suspicious to anyone who'd known Quan and Ethlyn themselves. It's not like Finn confronts Altena in-game immediately, anyway-- he broods over it until Leif notices something's wrong and asks him what's up.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Cymbalina's Revenge

[bottlegnomes]

ETA: Travant seemed to know a fair amount about Quan, Ethlyn, and even Finn as people even though they never shared screen time in FE4 until the massacre, almost like some backstory stuff got snipped out of the game. I do get the feeling he had ill will and even contempt toward Quan personally. It was mutual.

ETA?

Anyway, when I say personally, I mean that if they knew each other under different circumstances, I don't think Travant and Quan would have had a problem with each other. Travant's issues all seem to stem from jealousy with Quan's stemming from Travant's methods for improving his kingdom's stature. It would be interesting to hear Kaga's thoughts, though.

Leif actually might work all right in his canonical Prince class-- he's got minor Baldur and minor Nova so really using swords vs lances is a toss-up. What if Ethlyn still had the Light Brand on her in Yied and Leif was using that? Not the slam-dunk of the Gae Bolg but he looks enough like his real parents that a little Quan/Ethlyn hybrid waving around the Light Brand would be highly suspicious to anyone who'd known Quan and Ethlyn themselves. It's not like Finn confronts Altena in-game immediately, anyway-- he broods over it until Leif notices something's wrong and asks him what's up.

Forgot about the Baldur somehow That certainly makes swords more plausible. The thing that always struck me as weird was that Finn raised him and he's Quan's son. I get that Evayle was supposed to be something of an explanation, but it still seemed like a stretch. Prince could still work, but it would seem odd to have a non-wyvern royal in Thracia.

The Light Sword could definitely work, given it's unique stature in FE5. If it were just FE4, from what I can tell, it was just a somewhat rare magical sword, so then it might be iffy, but between arguably looking like Quan and having Ethlyn's sword, it'd probably still be at least feasible.

[Refa]

Then again, maybe she'd be a princess who used lances instead of swords; that'd be cool. (Leif using swords in the first place seemed a bit of a stretch anyway.)

How was it a stretch?

[bottlegnomes]

How was it a stretch?

Prince from a lance specializing kingdom with lance user holy blood raised by a lance knight was where my head was at. Like I said, I get that Evayle was supposed to justify it some, and, probably more importantly, I forgot about Leif having minor Baldur holy blood.

[Refa]

Fair enough; I was just confused as to where you were coming from, but I can get that.

[Chalis]

Prince class could work but some things would have to be reworked, since he has much less travel and can't exactly fly around. I actually didn't think about the Light Brand, so that could be the sign Finn needs to ask Altenna to confront him. But his whole life was still under the care of Trabant; his youth would allow unshakeable faith in his father just as his real son. He would be just as irrational after his death.

Give me some time, I can make this work. Something like Areone makes Leif's choice for him, locks him away to protect him since he won't take no for an answer to stay away from the frontlines and justifies it with being unable to trust him from turning coats during the last bout of For Whose Sake. When Seliph conquers Thracia, as he's freed Leif receives a speech about taking responsibility for his country where Trabant and Areone refused.

Alternatively or in addition, Corple could be involved in his recruitment. I've thought about using him as a proxy to give Altenna the Gaebolg, earning Leif Trabant's ire, where Leif wanted to confirm who its rightful owner was, yet still remains on Thracia's side. but it seemed needlessly complicated just like all of my ideas

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

ETA?

Anyway, when I say personally, I mean that if they knew each other under different circumstances, I don't think Travant and Quan would have had a problem with each other. Travant's issues all seem to stem from jealousy with Quan's stemming from Travant's methods for improving his kingdom's stature. It would be interesting to hear Kaga's thoughts, though.

Forgot about the Baldur somehow That certainly makes swords more plausible. The thing that always struck me as weird was that Finn raised him and he's Quan's son. I get that Evayle was supposed to be something of an explanation, but it still seemed like a stretch. Prince could still work, but it would seem odd to have a non-wyvern royal in Thracia.

The Light Sword could definitely work, given it's unique stature in FE5. If it were just FE4, from what I can tell, it was just a somewhat rare magical sword, so then it might be iffy, but between arguably looking like Quan and having Ethlyn's sword, it'd probably still be at least feasible.

ETA = edited to add. Old habit.

As for Leif starting out unmounted and a sword despite being raised by a lance guy, don't forget that Raquesis raised him too for a time-- if you go by the FE5 artbook she didn't leave until he was nine or ten and then Eyvel came into his life when he was about twelve. Plus he had the Light Brand handy and it was his main connection to Ethlyn, though I think it's kinda-sorta significant that Leif has the class of Nanna's mum while Nanna has the class of Leif's mum. I personally kind of like what Leif's class progression says about him (and Raquesis too)-- they start out small and weak and at a big disadvantage in FE4's huge maps and then they become these amazing multi-talented mounted badasses.

But then again if AU!Leif is raised by Travant, there's no Raquesis to inspire him toward the whole Master Knight thing, so he could definitely start on a wyvern.

[bottlegnomes]

ETA = edited to add. Old habit.

Ah. All I could think of was estimated time of arrival which was leaving me rather perplexed.

don't forget that Raquesis raised him too for a time-- if you go by the FE5 artbook she didn't leave until he was nine or ten

That I was not aware of at all. Certainly makes sense.

Areone locking him up could be interesting, especially since he already sort of does it with Altenna. It would certainly need some fleshing out to make it believable, but it's a start.

As for classes, I feel like it's fairly safe to say that Leif would probably be a wyvern knight, given everything we know about Thracia. With what Cymbalina's Revenge said, Altenna being a princess would make sense. In that case, Quan and Ethlyn might've swapped inheritance items. Altenna would get Ethlyn's, being a princess, and start with swords. Gaining lances, and her holy weapon, on promotion could be seen as her growing into her ancestral destiny and finally being truly ready to accept her role in rebuilding Thracia. As for Leif, give Quan some signature weapon that Finn can identify.

Edited June 28, 2015 by bottlegnomes

[B.Leu]

Doesn't Holy Blood, Major or Minor, give a mark to their bearer ? Checking if your so called children have ot or not shouldn't be that hard.

I really doubt that Trabant would have killed Leaf for not being able to wield Gae Bolg, he is, after all, Ethlin's child.

I'm not saying he would've been the best father of the world though. :p

But then again if AU!Leif is raised by Travant, there's no Raquesis to inspire him toward the whole Master Knight thing, so he could definitely start on a wyvern.

Eh, I almost forgot about that ! It's embarassing, since I actually love this piece of information.
I think that AULeaf should be either a Wyvern Knight, or a Lance Knight. Imagine the Trabant's facepalm if his kid was a Prince. :p

Funnily enough, I don't imagine Altena to be a Master Knight, dunno why since everything is possible.

Edited June 28, 2015 by B.Leu

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

Doesn't Holy Blood, Major or Minor, give a mark to their bearer ? Checking if your so called children have ot or not shouldn't be that hard.

I really doubt that Trabant would have killed Leaf for not being able to wield Gae Bolg, he is, after all, Ethlin's child.

I'm not saying he would've been the best father of the world though. :p

Eh, I almost forgot about that ! It's embarassing, since I actually love this piece of information.

I think that AULeaf should be either a Wyvern Knight, or a Lance Knight. Imagine the Trabant's facepalm if his kid was a Prince. :p

Funnily enough, I don't imagine Altena to be a Master Knight, dunno why since everything is possible.

The player's guide indicates only major blood carriers (aka holy weapon users) have the mark, but it can show up at any point in the carrier's life. So it's not foolproof. You can just say to yourself "Well, it'll show up one of these days" if a kid doesn't have it.

Re: Altena the Master Knight IIRC the FE4 beta version had Quan as a Master Knight? I still see her in the Lance Knight class tree though.